213 replies to this topic

[edperc]

I just visited the cities of Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Baltimore and found myself hugely depressed at the sight of the recession that those cities are experiencing. Empty retail and office space all over, rusty old industry everywhere, high jobless rates etc, etc, etc. Then I come back to FW and see all sorts of development and read about all of the people moving to Tarrant County and the possibilty for countless other urban developments.

I've lived in "BIG" cities. Living in FW, I never feel small. I rarely feel as though anything is missing, and I certainly NEVER find myself thinking of Dallas and how much bigger and better it must be than us. They are them and we are us. We're going to see more development here. We're going to see the construction of more downtown buildings and such. I appreciate that Downtown isn't overun by half full office towers! We now find ourselves in a position to be able to add office space and I hope to see it done as intelligently as FW seems to be handling its many other recent developments. I wish more folks realized just how small it continually makes us sound to talk about Dallas the way we do. Whether or not we get this 50 story tower, I'm still going to be proud of this city and the many wonderful advantages there are to living here as opposed to MANY other American cities.

[John T Roberts]

I wonder if there would be any way for the architects of this building to pay homage to the old CNB clock by putting another one on top of the building. The old one always appeared as a big black ugly box when it wasn't working, but there are plenty of ways they could design one into this new building. It wouldn't have to revolve - it could just be a large digital display integrated into the top of the building with a face on all four sides. It could possibly have three messages: time, temperature, and "XTO".

[cjyoung]

I'll believe this 50 story tower when I see it. 

Good to see you're getting cynical with age Jonny...by the time your 24, you'll be out on your rooftop patio waving your fists at cars driving too fast through your 'new urban' neighborhood...

Huh? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

And I'm sorry to jefffwd for having a hard time accepting reality. Downtown Dallas is already estimated to have more people than downtown Fort Worth, and there are more units u/c & in the works there than here. I don't like it any more than you do, but it's the plain and simple truth, and it irks me that people continue to think of Fort Worth being so far ahead of Dallas. They are LIGHT YEARS ahead of us in urban renewal, I'm sorry. Maybe if Fort Worthians understood this, there would be a bigger push to get more urban developments going...

And also don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to see a 50 story tower downtown, but that would be such a huge accomplishment for Fort Worth that it makes me skeptical. I hope my pessimism turns out to be unfounded, but I'd really be happy with anything built there aside from parking, even a city park.

It's OK, Jonny. I'm just glad that a 16 year old cares.

Like I said before, use that energy to help make things better when it's your time to be a decision maker.

[cjyoung]

I just visited the cities of Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Baltimore and found myself hugely depressed at the sight of the recession that those cities are experiencing.  Empty retail and office space all over, rusty old industry everywhere, high jobless rates etc, etc, etc.  Then I come back to FW and see all sorts of development and read about all of the people moving to Tarrant County and the possibilty for countless other urban developments. 

I've lived in "BIG" cities.  Living in FW, I never feel small.  I rarely feel as though anything is missing, and I certainly NEVER find myself thinking of Dallas and how much bigger and better it must be than us.  They are them and we are us.  We're going to see more development here.  We're going to see the construction of more downtown buildings and such.  I appreciate that Downtown isn't overun by half full office towers!  We now find ourselves in a position to  be able to add office space and I hope to see it done as intelligently as FW seems to be handling its many other recent developments.  I wish more folks realized just how small it continually makes us sound to talk about Dallas the way we do.  Whether or not we get this 50 story tower, I'm still going to be proud of this city and the many wonderful advantages there are to living here as opposed to MANY other American cities.

True.

[cjyoung]

I wonder if there would be any way for the architects of this building to pay homage to the old CNB clock by putting another one on top of the building.  The old one always appeared as a big black ugly box when it wasn't working, but there are plenty of ways they could design one into this new building.  It wouldn't have to revolve - it could just be a large digital display integrated into the top of the building with a face on all four sides.  It could possibly have three messages: time, temperature, and "XTO".

Why don't you do a mockup on top of the tower that you designed?

[renamerusk]

I wonder if there would be any way for the architects of this building to pay homage to the old CNB clock by putting another one on top of the building.

I am not sure of the need to have anything atop of the new building in the way of a clock/temperature message board..; I feel that "XTO" is more than acceptable and would be nice. The one homage that I hope that will be made in the design of a new building is that design pays homage to the historical buildings (ie Commerce, Waggoner, Baker, etc) in its immediate neighborhood in the form of texturing and coloring.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy"

[mosteijn]

It's OK, Jonny. I'm just glad that a 16 year old cares.

Well somebody has to. Oh how I wish 15.92 year olds could legally develop land...

[Willy1]

I have to agree with Johnny on a few things. I am typically a pretty positive person. Being skeptical actually takes some effort for me. However, I spend a lot of time in Dallas. Johnny is right. they are light years ahead of FW when it comes to urban renewal. I love that The Tower is fresh and new again. I love the new Pier 1 tower and I like the Radio Shack campus (would have loved a tower). And I love the plans for the Trinity River... I love that they're re-doing Montgomery Wards - even if it is going to be more suited for Frisco than FW's urban core. And I love that FW is one of the fastest growing cities in the country. However, anyone can take a two hour drive around Dallas' uptown area, and even parts of downtown Dallas, and see that they're blowing us out of the water. In the past few years Uptown has gone from having 3 or 4 mid-rise buildings to a solid continuation of the Dallas skyline. Does anyone have any pictures of the Dallas skyline/uptown from 10 years ago to compare to today? I'm very proud of the progress that is being made in FW. But, it seems like in FW we spend a lot more time talking about what MIGHT happen than we do actually making sure these projects DO happen. This is not the first 50 story tower to be proposed in FW. And, it's been over 20 years since we built anything over 20 stories in this city.

I know people hate FW/Dallas compaisons in this forum. But, it's hard not to compare yourself to the big city next door when you constantly hear what a mess things are in over there and then you hear about the development. Dallas is not growing the way FW is, yet they have all these huge projects going on. Ritz Carlton, W at Victory, Azure, and at least 4 more projects are approved and going up. If all the growth is in FW and FW is Boomtown, then why is Dallas getting all the good projects? Seriously, uptown in Dallas is about the size of downtown Austin now! And, 7-11 just announced they may be building a new skyscraper in downtown Dallas because their lease at City Place is up in 2 years. It's insane how easily things seem to happen in Dallas - well, everything except major football stadiums.. Not only are they building new buildings all over uptown, they're even converting relatively new rental properties into condo/lofts. I have a friend who lives in a high-end rental loft facing 75, just south of Hall. They're converting those to condo's for sale... So what gives?

[AdamB]

There is nowhere to go but up in Dallas. We are approaching that situation very quickly. Before we start growing up we are going to wait till the North develops.

[DrkLts]

If it makes anyone feel better, San Antonio (the #2 big city in TX) leapfrogged Dallas as a bigger city and their skyline isn't really popping skyscrapers left and right. I been there a few times and as far as I remember, I kinda think Fort Worth has a taller skyline. So don't anyone feel too bad. I'm sure they are wishfull as us.

[Sam Stone]

I don't mean to be a nitpicker but just a point of information here. . .

In planning and modern urban history the phrase "urban renewal" refers to a specific series of federally funded projects (most of which consisted of The Projects) during the 1960s. Those projects were so ill-conceived and such monumental failures that today's planners eschew the term "urban renewal" in favor of "urban revitalization," "urban infill," etc. I know it seems like a small semantic point, but it's important not to let the great things that are happening get confused with what was such a devastating process for cities.

[renamerusk]

... Hey, if Austin is going to get a 700 foot tower than we should at least get one too....

I executed a "google search" to find out more about the proposed 700' skyscraper in Austin...what I found was a story about constructing or adding to Austin's Art Museum and a story about the unveiling of a 700 ft Tower; but the proposed skyscraper is planned for LONDON, UK

Both articles printed in ArtsJournal February 2004:
http://www.artsjourn...01archive.shtml

London (2/12/04):
http://www.guardian....1145544,00.html

Austin (02/10/04):
http://austin.bizjou...09/daily27.html



"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[John T Roberts]

Real Estate experts say that the market may be right for the new 50 story XTO building. Although I am skeptical, it appears that there is a possibility the building could be built. The one downside is that it would take more than three years from right now to construct the building and the market could change for the worse in that amount of time.

From the Fort Worth Star-Telegram: http://www.dfw.com/m...ss/11140016.htm

[cjyoung]

If it makes anyone feel better, San Antonio (the #2 big city in TX) leapfrogged Dallas as a bigger city and their skyline isn't really popping skyscrapers left and right. I been there a few times and as far as I remember, I kinda think Fort Worth has a taller skyline. So don't anyone feel too bad. I'm sure they are wishfull as us.

Not even close to Fort Worth if you believe in the following website's formula, which ranks Funkytown behind KC, Tulsa, Tampa and Cincy, but ahead of Nashville, Milwaukee, Jacksonville, Portland, Phoenix, and San Antonio.
The World's Best Skylines

[cjyoung]

It's OK, Jonny. I'm just glad that a 16 year old cares.

Well somebody has to. Oh how I wish 15.92 year olds could legally develop land...

Me too. I also wish it was as easy as it is in those stupid infomercials.

Trust me, if I had the money, downtown would be on the level as Seattle or Minneapolis.

[edperc]

The latest ST article gives me the feeling of candy being dangled in front of a baby's face - but the baby is being told that it can't have the candy until it has all its teeth. (Anyone know how to get teeth to grow faster?).

Perhaps XTO should hire a management company to seek out tenants for the proposed building and secure them by contract or lease before they begin planning and/or construction - or perhaps during construction. Wouldn't three years be plenty of time for XTO to be working on leasing the space? At the very least, maybe there will be enough of a corporate buzz around the proposal for the company to want to go forward with the project...

[renamerusk]

... which ranks Funkytown behind KC, Tulsa, Tampa and Cincy...

BAD! VERY BAD!

WHAT ARE OR WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO WHEN YOU WRITE "FUNKYTOWN"?

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[safly]

I just visited the cities of Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Baltimore and found myself hugely depressed at the sight of the recession that those cities are experiencing.  Empty retail and office space all over, rusty old industry everywhere, high jobless rates etc, etc, etc.  Then I come back to FW and see all sorts of development and read about all of the people moving to Tarrant County and the possibilty for countless other urban developments. 

I've lived in "BIG" cities.  Living in FW, I never feel small.  I rarely feel as though anything is missing, and I certainly NEVER find myself thinking of Dallas and how much bigger and better it must be than us.  They are them and we are us.  We're going to see more development here.  We're going to see the construction of more downtown buildings and such.  I appreciate that Downtown isn't overun by half full office towers!  We now find ourselves in a position to  be able to add office space and I hope to see it done as intelligently as FW seems to be handling its many other recent developments.  I wish more folks realized just how small it continually makes us sound to talk about Dallas the way we do.  Whether or not we get this 50 story tower, I'm still going to be proud of this city and the many wonderful advantages there are to living here as opposed to MANY other American cities.

Half full office towers. Sounds like FW if we built ours high enough. BTW, wasn't the Bank One Tower a half way full office building at one time? Can you imagine Dallas doing the same kind of downtown office building conversions we are pushing. We would be outpimped in the RE market.

[safly]

It's OK, Jonny. I'm just glad that a 16 year old cares.

Well somebody has to. Oh how I wish 15.92 year olds could legally develop land...

Keep it REAL Johnny. Show me the plans and I will show you the investors.

[safly]

If it makes anyone feel better, San Antonio (the #2 big city in TX) leapfrogged Dallas as a bigger city and their skyline isn't really popping skyscrapers left and right. I been there a few times and as far as I remember, I kinda think Fort Worth has a taller skyline. So don't anyone feel too bad. I'm sure they are wishfull as us.

Oh yes, my hometown! The Alamo City does not feel the need to push it's name as a city with tall buildings. If they do, it would have been done 20+ years before FW. Surpassing the big "D" is quite an accomplishment to the city resources, corp. job scalability/market, entertainment (value), recreation venues, and superb hospitality. So FW should really consider if the TRV and mid-rise condos will bring in the tourism/jobs or will tourism/jobs bring in the a succesful TRV and mid-rise condo appeal? Chicken and the Egg, Egg and the Chicken conundrum Ed Bass stated in the ST last year with. FW has a taller skyline than San Antonio, but much of downtown SanAntonio is owned by institutions/museums/ and very historic hotels, parks, and monuments (the Alamo). San Antonio is a much more favorable pedestrian friendly downtown excursion than FW, and the downtown scope there is much broader and encompassed by small cultural/historic districts, the Brackenridge Park/Zoo/Polo Grounds, etc. To get a good look of the San Antonio skyline just drive the NEW 3 lane onramp from the IH10 East into downtown and exit 410 NEast bound on the outside lane. Breathtakingly clear.

[jefffwd]

... which ranks Funkytown behind KC, Tulsa, Tampa and Cincy...

BAD! VERY BAD!

WHAT ARE OR WHO ARE YOU REFERRING TO WHEN YOU WRITE "FUNKYTOWN"?

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

Funkytown = Fort Worth. Don't know how it got started but I have heard that for years. I like it much better than Cowtown.

[renamerusk]

Funkytown = Fort Worth.  Don't know how it got started but I have heard that for years.  I like it much better than Cowtown. 

FUNKY-town MOST DEFINITELY DOES NOT EQUAL FORT WORTH! and here is why:

Oxford Universal Dictionary:
FUNK, a strong smell or stink; cowering fear, a state of panic; to cause an offensive smell; to try to back out of anything; to fight shy of, wish to shirk or evade; to be afraid of.

What is affirming about any town should it become associated with any of the above unvirtuos attributes?

I suspect that it is a juvenile attempt by some lame brain hipsters to be kool; and I fail to find anything positive about such an unflattering moniker.
My .02 cents

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[mosteijn]

Also from an oxford dictionary...

funk2

• noun a style of popular dance music of US black origin, having a strong rhythm that typically accentuates the first beat in the bar.

I think that's what they were going for.

[JBB]

I think the funky in Funkytown is used as positive slang meaning strange or unique rather than the literal, negative definition that you're referring to. I believe that nickname was started by a radio station in the 70's or 80's. I know the subject has come up in a previous topic on the forum.

[Sam Stone]

I've always thought the Funkytown name was silly because if there is any city in Texas that is funky (in the offbeat, alternative, hip, partying sort of way) it's Austin. I mean, come on, FW is a lot of things, but funky?

[JBB]

That's why I've always disliked it. Not because it is insulting, but because it couldn't be further from being a description of the city's character.

[WTx]

Quote By Safly

Oh yes, my hometown! The Alamo City does not feel the need to push it's name as a city with tall buildings.

Anybody who has extensively walked DT FW and DT SanAn(non riverwalk) should notice how many great old buildings both cities have. Another thing I noticed about SanAN is that just like Fort Worth many of the old buildings are being productively utilized. Any that remain are currently under construction into residential units with very little vacant buildings if any at all. My opinion is that the lack of development such as Dallas and Houston experienced has allowed us to keep some of our great old assets. Can you imagine the Burk Burnett Bldg or Sinclair with a 50's-60's facade?? The very thought gives me chills!!!! Don't get me wrong however, lets get that XTO building built!!!

[lobster]

keep in mind *funk* is also a term used for horrid body odor

Sam & I have a friend up in Oklahoma that refers to Fort Worth with a variety of names such as Fort Puzzles, Fort Giggles, and most recently, Fort Sodas.. but I don't anticipate any of those catching on in the mainstream anytime soon..

I'm satisfied with FTown... Fort Worth being the largest city in the USA that starts with "F" (the next closest being Fresno) deserves the title

[safly]

I've also heard, I don't know how to put this nicely.

-Fort Worthless?

Not that I agree.

[renamerusk]

I've also heard, I don't  know how to put this nicely.

-Fort Worthless?

Not that I agree.

Where is this pointless "name calling" headed?... ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

[John T Roberts]

Let's get this topic back on track. The topic is for discussions of the possible 50 story building to replace the Landmark Tower.

Our administrators and moderators are working on some new forum guidelines and rules. Although topic tangents will be permitted, completely drifting off to subjects totally unrelated will probably not be allowed under the new forum guidelines and rules.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, all of us want a better "Fort Worth Forum".

[mosteijn]

If the 50 story building has the right system of setbacks, I think they could get away with building something between 800,000 and 1 million sf rather than 1 million +. If XTO takes up 600,000 sf, you would only have between 2 and 400,000 sf of speculative office space, and that doesn't seem like too big a risk to me. Also keep in mind that those numbers are gross sf, not leasable sf, which I imagine would be even less.

If they do build 50 floors, I hope they top it off with a crown. Maybe not a pyramid, but definately something that has unique illumination at night (think Pier1).

[Shocker]

A crown or something besides mechanical equipment would be nice (not that I believe for a second that XTO would do something that utilitarian.) I really don't like the fact that many of the buildings in downtown FW have really sorry looking rooftops. The majority are pretty ugly to look at from up high. The obvious example is Burnett Plaza, but from up high the Tandy towers are pretty bad as is The Worthington and many others. I'd really like to see caps or crowns like in Chicago or New York. The tops of many of their buildings are actually quite attractive.

[John T Roberts]

A crown or something besides mechanical equipment would be nice (not that I believe for a second that XTO would do something that utilitarian.)  I really don't like the fact that many of the buildings in downtown FW have really sorry looking rooftops.  The majority are pretty ugly to look at from up high.  The obvious example is Burnett Plaza, but from up high the Tandy towers are pretty bad as is The Worthington and many others.  I'd really like to see caps or crowns like in Chicago or New York.  The tops of many of their buildings are actually quite attractive.

Yet with the exception of Burnett Plaza, the Tandy Towers and the Worthington Hotel were designed to hide all of the utilitarian equipment from the street. Part of the problem in putting the equipment on the roof of the tallest part of the building stems from Fort Worth's small 200' x 200' blocks. You put a tower up on one of the blocks, and then there is no place for the mechanical equipment to go. You can put it on the roof and screen it from the street, but that is about all an engineer and an architect can do because the equipment requires a large amount of fresh air to operate. The cooling towers require all of the space above them to be open. The only way to really disguise them is to put an open crown or decorative structure entirely around them.

[normanfd]

Austin developer Tom Stacy proposes a 680-ft., 41-story tower one block north of Austin's Frost Bank Tower on Congress Ave. between 5th and 6th Streets. The building would be taller than any in Fort Worth, but presumbaly would not be as tall as the potential 50-story XTO building.

Austin American-Statesman article

[mosteijn]

So the Austin building is only 41 stories but 680 ft? There must be a crown/decorative top involved, because hotels and residential towers don't have very large floor-ceiling measurements, and that would put each floor at about 17 feet each!

What are the average residential and hotel floor heights anyways? I thought it was 9-10 for residential and about 12 for hotel. What about office? I've been using 14 feet without knowing for sure...

[normanfd]

Sorry, Johnny, but the only info I have on the proposed Austin building is the info linked in the American-Statesman article I previously posted.

However, the article stated the building would contain 3 floors of retail, a ten-story hotel, and the rest would be primarily residential.

The article also mentions several other mid-to-high-rise structures presently proposed in Austin. Interestingly, all but two are primarily residential.

Also mentioned was the conflict between creating a high density, urban environment in central Austin while maintaining certain corridors where state laws and city ordinances protect views of the state's capitol building and the UT tower.

Frankly, I think Fort Worth would benefit from not only a 50-story XTO tower, but also a residential tower that others on this forum have cryptically mentioned as a rumor. Even the announced mid-rise projects that the article mentions are far beyond what is being speculated in Fort Worth. Since the tech bomb, Austin is no longer the boom town it once was. Instead, Fort Worth has replaced Las Vegas as the nation's biggest boom town, at least temporarily. I think The Tower has made it clear that Fort Worth can support much more development Downtown than we're seeing now. While Dallas is trying to create urban population density by converting its glut of unused office space to residential, Fort Worth is in very short supply of both downtown offices and residences to attract outside companies or local consumer demand.

[safly]

What supporting research/articles/facts do you have that FW has out grown LV? Very interesting.

[cjyoung]

Let's get this topic back on track.  The topic is for discussions of the possible 50 story building to replace the Landmark Tower. 

Our administrators and moderators are working on some new forum guidelines and rules.  Although topic tangents will be permitted, completely drifting off to subjects totally unrelated will probably not be allowed under the new forum guidelines and rules.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, all of us want a better "Fort Worth Forum".

You're doing the right thing.

[Willy1]

None of those websites offer any proof that FW is growing faster than Las Vegas. However, if you do a little research and look at the numbers for FW vs Vegas (not Dallas-FW, but just FW) you'll see that FW has out-paced Vegas for the past several years. FW is over 500,000 - and is the fastest growing city over 500K. Vegas does not have 500,000 population yet, so it's not included in that comparison.

FW is the fastest growing city of over 500,000 though. But, it depends on how you look at it. For raw number of increased residents LA is still tops. FW's claim to fame is based on growth rate, which is different than the actual number of added people. Think of it this way. LA can add 200,000 people and still reflect a smaller growth rate than FW even if FW adds only 50,000 people during the same designated time. It all depends on whether or not you're talking about growth percentage or raw numbers of people moving to a city.

[normanfd]

Most recent Census Bureau estimates

[safly]

Hopefully the concensus is that FW is heading in the right direction. I've always stressed to outsiders, visitors, investors and residents that FW has TREMENDOUS upside advantage for it's size and location. That assumption means very little when we don't act upon it in the right manner.

[mosteijn]

You tell people positive things about Fort Worth? Hm...

Anyone want to take on my building height question?

[John T Roberts]

Jonny, there are several variables in floor to floor height. However, 10 feet is probably the upper limit for new residential floors, unless the developer is emphasizing higher ceilings than 8 feet. Hotels can run the same or slightly higher, depending on the construction. Many times hotels can get by with shorter spans, thereby decreasing the thickness of the structure. This can result in lesser floor to floor heights. Office floor to floor heights probably average about 13 feet with 12 feet being the low end and 14 feet being on the high side. Desired ceiling height, distances between columns, structural systems, mechanical systems, and ultimately overall height have some bearing on floor to floor heights.

[safly]

In any event I would be just ecstatic to see John's XTO new building rendering considered for final phase, or even better crowned for actual construction. It would certainly be a monumental experience and achievement for him, and one that would surely obtain plenty o buzz for not only the city but for the FWAForum.

[salvag]

In any event I would be just ecstatic to see John's XTO new building rendering considered for final phase, or even better crowned for actual construction. It would certainly be a monumental experience and achievement for him, and one that would surely obtain plenty o buzz for not only the city but for the FWAForum.

Yeah safly, maybe they would mention your name.

[safly]

In any event I would be just ecstatic to see John's XTO new building rendering considered for final phase, or even better crowned for actual construction. It would certainly be a monumental experience and achievement for him, and one that would surely obtain plenty o buzz for not only the city but for the FWAForum.

Yeah safly, maybe they would mention your name.

That appears to be the obvious being stated by sal again.

[SurplusPopulation]

I Photoshop'd John's tower into the skyline but I don't know how to post it on here. Any help would be appreciated.