25 replies to this topic

[mmiller2002]

I have lived in the North Hi Mount area since 1987, and the recent bulldozing of $175K+ homes baffles me. Do buyers have more money than brains?

There's some monstrosity being built on 2 lots in the 4000 block of Bunting. Why wouldn't somebody build their $1M mansion where they have a bit of land, and it doesn't look like a modern storefront in the middle of old-style homes?

I've been through the houses being built on Mattison, the Village townhomes being built on the old North Hi Mount Elementary tennis courts, the townhomes on Clarke by the CVS and others. They cut a lot of corners, but add a few jazzy features to make them look fancy when they're done. I heard that Village paid $600K+ for the 5 lots on Mattison. They are putting 7 ~25ft.-wide townhomes on the 5 lots. All listed for well ove $500K. Upstairs, the bathrooms have a cheapo stamped steel/porcelain tub.

Two more on Clarke were plowed under in the area within the past week.

Now, I'm not a bungalow-hugging preservationist. I just don't understand why these properties are attractive to people with the apparent money have a little space along with their house. They're not even "dream homes" designed by the owner since they are developer speculation.

I grew up in the northeast where row-homes with no yards were very working class.

Someone enlighten me.

Thanks

[cberen1]

Wow. You've got some pretty strong feelings about this.

My guess is that people want to live in an established neighborhood, close to the CBD, but in a new home.

Maybe that's over simplifying or stating the obvious, but look at the alternatives. They could live in a new neighborhood (suburban, no trees, middle of nowhere, no charm, long commute). They could live in an older home (old pipes, old wiring, poor insulation, small closets, inadequate bathrooms, etc.). Some people just don't want that.

If you want new, close to CBD and established neighborhood, you don't have a lot of choices. I've got a friend in one of those right now and he's about to put his house on the market. He's lived in it for less than two years. I'll let you know how he comes out on the deal. That will tel you a lot about haw insane these people are.

[mmiller2002]

Why is he selling after such a short time?

I see a lot of those townhomes turn over ownership rather quickly. I think that it's either because they aren't all they're cracked up to be (initial impression=wow nice kitchen and bath) or the type of person attracted to them has a short attention span. Or, just wants to try and make a profit. They may get tired of feeling squeezed-in after buying a $400K+, 3-4000sqft. home on a 50'x120' or smaller lot.

[Bradleto]

Another home was razed on Colonial Pkwy right across from the Colonial golf course. It happened yesterday and I think it was one of the smaller homes along that stretch of street, but now that it is gone, I am not certain. My guess is we'll see a fairly large home constructed on that expensive site, as much as the lot dimensions will allow, that assuming it isn't made into a side yard or tennis court. There have been 4 or 5 of these sorts of raze/rebuilds in the Colonial/Bellaire/TCU area.

Another really neat alternative to a raze/rebuild is the massive re-do. There is a home on Bellaire Drive North across the street and a bit west of the TCU tennis facilities under such construction. It was a small home, I think a 2-1 or 2-2 with a detached garage at the rear of the property and it was listed for about $199,000 as I recall. Whoever bought the little home pulled off the roof and everything above the top plate and added a second story to the home and a bit of additional first story space too. The end result will be a home that fits the area well with added square footage.

One downside is renovation/remodeling work is so danged expensive compared to new construction. When the trades hear the word "remodel," their prices seem to go up -- a lot, like in multiples. For some trades, this makes sense; for others it's questionable why remodel versus new construction would make any difference, but they all seem to bid this sort of work higher.

When it is done right, these remodels can look great. Brad

[redhead]

Many of the trades build in what we term a "JIC factor." (just-in-case) You don't know what's inside the walls before you tear into them, but the homeowner wants a firm price for the job...it's hard to know what to expect from the inspectors and how much re-doing will really be needed. So you either pad the price a bit to CYA or you do them on a cost-plus. Remodel $$'s ARE generally better than new construction because it's usually quick in and out with a higher margin.

[Bradleto]

Yes, there are definitely some legitimate reasons to add a little fudge factor when quoting remodels versus new construction. Too, you often have a client/homeowner looking over your shoulder while you work so contractors need some "combat" pay.

Several years ago, a home across the street from the TCU baseball stadium situated on the corner of a north/south side street was heavily remodeled and the contractor did a wonderful job taking a drab little structure, adding a really fresh exterior appearance to it, yet keeping the home very much in an appearance that fit the older neighborhood. Several other homes along that stretch have recently been or are currently getting significant facelifts. Neat.

Another home on Alton Rd. directly behind the TCU football stadium is being remodeled -- extensively -- from a small one story structure into something much larger and pretty spectacular. The renovation has been going on for almost 2 years. Again, the nature of the area where reasonably small homes sit adjacent to mansion-like structures, makes the big remodel fit right in I think.

I'm a fan of the remodels when they work and stay consistent with the neighborhoods, a bit less of a fan when I see new construction in older neighborhoods that look out of place. Brad

[ochona]

The teardown phenomenon is everywhere. What gets me is -- people move into neighborhoods like Arlington Heights for the atmosphere -- but the housing they buy destroys it. It's like moving to a crowded subdivision in the country so you can move away from the city. You've brought the city with you. Makes me sad to hear it's happening.

Oh, and by the way, the #1 tip for a happy remodel client is to strongly recommend that they move out during renovation...make sure they budget for it ahead of time and make sure that they add two months to whatever the contractor says it will take. Not that the contractor is lying or anything. No. It's that you never know when you'll find out that the entire house is being supported by one lonely little cedar-stump pier that is home to a termite colony with a population the size of Houston.

[Bradleto]

Credit to Paul Kasriel, an economist for The Northern Trust Company for the graph showing the rather large increase in mortgage debt to market value of residential real estate. A couple of interesting things: 1) you can see that we were at sort of a low point on mortgage debt to market value back in the early 80s when interest rates were very high, then as lots of credit was made available and rates were driven lower, mortgage debt lifted quite a lot.

Cheap rates plus lots of money floating around for loans = lots of new homes and lots of extensive remodels.

An interesting chart...
Brad

[Bradleto]

Credit to Paul Kasriel again (economist for The Northern Trust Company) for the chart.

Since home prices swelled up due to low interest rates, a whole new industry was spawned -- the refinancing/home equity loan industry -- where folks could extract some or all of the equity built up from housing price inflation and use it to buy junior some shoes, send him to college, or remodel.

Approximately 600 billion dollars in 2005 sucked out of home equity did a whole lot to support consumption in 2005.

Brad

[safly]

So the US has adopted a debt heavy society.

What's NEW?

Any charts on "Interest Only" loans throughout the years?

[redhead]

Adopted a heavy debt society??? Look at the US in comparison to other industrialized countries...our savings rate is appallingly low!!!

I'm actually a fan of mortgage equity loans---especially in states like CA (with fast appreciation) and especially for the elderly. But to pull equity out for Christmas presents and credit card debt is ridiculous! Unfortunately, most schools (and parents for that matter) do NOT teach credit management.

[Willy1]

Well, the dozed the little house behind me last year and a builder built a 4000 sqft house and it's listed at $700K. I walked through the house a couple weeks ago. It's nice, but it seems like something that belongs in Frisco. I would never pay $700K for the house. But, in Monticello/N Hi Mount area it's the land that is so expensive. My house isn't even on the market and I've had 3 offers site-unseen.

[hannerhan]

I have an option on a 50x135 lot right now in that area (it's a 900 sq foot tear down currently). As one of the insane homebuyers, I can at least give you my reasoning for what I'm doing: 1. I want to be close to downtown (where I work long hours), in a good safe neighborhood. 2. I think the near West side, even at current prices, will be the best investment in Fort Worth over the next 10 years. 3. I can build a new house for the same price people are asking for their re-modeled older homes. This way I can have an input on the all the specs.

So there you have it. I do agree that most 4,000 sq foot homes are just too big to look good on a 50x125 lot. Ours is going to be around 2,800 sq feet, which I think will be more reasonable, and also give some decent yard space.

[mmiller2002]

I get the convenient-location reason why the area is attractive. I'm glad you are looking at a modest size house, and I hope is it designed to look more urban than suburban. A lot of the ones that go up look more Candleridge/Summercreek/LostCreek high-peak roof than Monticello/Heights traditional style.

There's 2 monsters gone/going up on Clover/Virginia that present a big, flat 2-story front to the street. Bah.

The old-style remodels seemed to put their additions/2nd stories on the back of the house where it wasn't as abvious from the street, kinda hidden to keep the smallish feel.

The area will probably be unrecognizable in 20 years with all the tear downs. Its their land, though, so they can do basically what they want. Its not my place to tell people what they can/cannot do with their land. I just wish some had better taste and sense.

I have an option on a 50x135 lot right now in that area (it's a 900 sq foot tear down currently). As one of the insane homebuyers, I can at least give you my reasoning for what I'm doing: 1. I want to be close to downtown (where I work long hours), in a good safe neighborhood. 2. I think the near West side, even at current prices, will be the best investment in Fort Worth over the next 10 years. 3. I can build a new house for the same price people are asking for their re-modeled older homes. This way I can have an input on the all the specs.

So there you have it. I do agree that most 4,000 sq foot homes are just too big to look good on a 50x125 lot. Ours is going to be around 2,800 sq feet, which I think will be more reasonable, and also give some decent yard space.

[hannerhan]

I get the convenient-location reason why the area is attractive. I'm glad you are looking at a modest size house, and I hope is it designed to look more urban than suburban. A lot of the ones that go up look more Candleridge/Summercreek/LostCreek high-peak roof than Monticello/Heights traditional style.

In looking at existing homes on the market, there is a significant price discrepancy between the houses that were built well in the 20's-40's, and the houses that were built in the 60's-70's in a style that seemed cool at the time. So I'm not going to make the same mistake. I would like my house to look like it could have been built in the 1930's, when the neighborhood was built out (but of course with a much more accomodating interior...ie no small closets).

[cberen1]

I'd like to poll you guys on an architectural issue that's sort of on topic. I live in a colonial revival house in University West. 2 stories, brick facade, dormers, shutters, no porch, etc.

I love the house, but I want to make a few changes in the coming years. The biggest issue is that my front hall way is very shallow. The open front door just misses the first stair of the straight staircase by 10 -12 inches. I can either change the staircase (move it back or fold it around). Or I can create kind of an enclosed front porch that protrudes from the middle of the front of the house with a gabled roof.

If I build on to the front of the house, it should look ok, but it will definitely not fit within the traditional definition of the architectural style of my house. I've driven around looking at similar houses to see if there anyone has done what I'm thinking about. There are two examples I can find. The house on the Southeast corner of Wabash and Park Hill Ln. is one. The other is on the South side of Bellaire Dr. right by the TCU track. The little additions stick out 3 - 6 feet and are only as wide as the entryway.

Here's my question. Does it matter? 30 years from now will anyone care that the house is an adulterated version of Classic Colonial Revival architecture? My gut says it probably matters, but I don't know. Maybe the next guy just tears the house down anyway? I'm asking because I really want some opinions from people with an interest in architecture.

[hannerhan]

Pictures would be helpful in this case I think.

[Bradleto]

My goodness! You have two of Fort Worth's best qualified "historical house gurus" living right in your own neighborhood in Steve and Susan Kline. I think I'd offer to buy them a soft drink, maybe even dinner, and ask their opinions regarding your possible conversion plans and how to accomplish the addition and stay within the framework of your home's historic roots.

I have built two homes in the TCU area, the first in 1995 right on South University Drive two houses north from UCC. For that home, we had plenty of lot depth, but only 50 feet of lot width to work with yet we were able to build a home there. Within a year or so, bunches of tall, skinny homes started popping up all over neighborhoods with similar lot constraints over off of Camp Bowie and similar areas.

Then starting in 2004, we built off the side of a cliff, literally, on Bellaire Dr W. but knowing in advance that we wanted a home that was either Tudor or Cottage to fit in with the prevailing architecture of the area. Rough going, but do-able, to make it work right. Other modern home styles would have been more conducive to the site, but we managed the Cottage type construction.

The moral of my post is... even with all sorts of odd limitations and restrictions, you can get it done most likely.

Hey! I mentioned in an earlier post the neat conversion over on Bellaire Drive North where they took a small, 2-1 single story home, essentially cut it off at the top plate, added a bit of new structure to the bottom floor, then added a second story. It is being bricked as I type and the crew did a fabulous job; and, whoever did the design work managed to make the remodeled home fit right in the neighborhood. There are plenty of these sorts of efforts going on all around TCU. Kind of neat I think when they do this sort of construction and keep the house looking like it belongs in the neighborhood.

Cheers! Brad

[John T Roberts]

I second Brad's idea to talk to Steve and Susan. They will be able to give you valuable information regarding your conversion plans.

[cberen1]

Pictures would be helpful in this case I think.

I know we hide personal addresses. I didn't know if a picture would sort of fall into the same category? Maybe a sketch would be appropriate?

I'll hunt down Steve and Susan. There's a neighborhood association meeting on Friday and I imagine they'll be there.

[hannerhan]

I've been through the houses being built on Mattison, the Village townhomes being built on the old North Hi Mount Elementary tennis courts, the townhomes on Clarke by the CVS and others. They cut a lot of corners, but add a few jazzy features to make them look fancy when they're done. I heard that Village paid $600K+ for the 5 lots on Mattison. They are putting 7 ~25ft.-wide townhomes on the 5 lots. All listed for well ove $500K. Upstairs, the bathrooms have a cheapo stamped steel/porcelain tub.

I recently checked out the Mattison townhomes. Compared to 95% of what was built over the past 30 years in the area, these homes are of very high quality. The only beef I have with them is the small lots, but if I'm the builder, I would do the same thing. As far as quality, with Marvin wood windows, tile roof, a nice period-styled architectural theme, real hardwood floors, etc, I don't see many corners being cut. The fact that the upstairs tub is the only thing that gets mentioned as far as construction, says to me that these places are pretty nice.

[mmiller2002]

I recently checked out the Mattison townhomes. Compared to 95% of what was built over the past 30 years in the area, these homes are of very high quality. The only beef I have with them is the small lots, but if I'm the builder, I would do the same thing. As far as quality, with Marvin wood windows, tile roof, a nice period-styled architectural theme, real hardwood floors, etc, I don't see many corners being cut. The fact that the upstairs tub is the only thing that gets mentioned as far as construction, says to me that these places are pretty nice.

I noticed that they built a "cheap" wooden fence instead of a matching stucco wall along Belle. It doesn't look good now, and in a few years it will look worse. $550K, hmmm.

It will be interesting to see if it lives up to the pretty pictures they've painted.

[elpingüino]

This is the closest thread I could find about demolishing and rebuilding in older neighborhoods. Today there's a very extensive Star-Telegram report about this trend, including an interactive map of the 900 residential razing permits in FW in just the past five years.

Want a new home in the heart of Fort Worth? You'll likely have to tear one down first

[Crestline]

Without clicking through to the paywalled article, I recognize that pair of townhome structures as being near me in Arlington Heights:

 

 

It's interesting to read the 2006-era posts from this thread. Back then they (we) were complaining about paying $400K for a 4000 square foot house. I would kill for prices like that now!