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New Will Rogers Arena

Cultural District New Arena

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#1 mosteijn

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Posted 23 January 2005 - 12:04 PM

New arena on horizon

By Anna M. Tinsley

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


FORT WORTH - Amid the bustle of traffic on Harley Avenue, vehicles dash in and out of a city maintenance yard.

But that service center, on the edge of the Will Rogers Memorial Center complex, will fall idle next year as city officials pave the way for a long-awaited, multimillion-dollar arena.

Although a completed arena could be years away, plans are in place to clear the site by moving the Harley Service Center as soon as summer 2006 to the old Federal Depot south of downtown.

By 2008 or 2009, work should be under way to demolish the current building, landscape the area, realign Harley Avenue and build a parking lot to serve the complex.

A new arena could come after that, officials said.

"There is the dream of a new arena," said City Councilman John Stevenson, whose district includes the area. "But that will require a lot of private support and public support, and that hasn't been resolved yet."

A 1990 master plan for the Cultural District calls for construction of a $120 million, 12,000-seat arena and a $30 million livestock and equestrian building.

For years, officials and community leaders have discussed the possibility of funding and building a new arena, which has been a priority of the Fort Worth Stock Show and its chairman, businessman Ed Bass.

They have long maintained that a new arena would let the Stock Show move its annual rodeo and other equestrian events from the 1936 Will Rogers Coliseum, with its narrow hallways, insufficient restrooms and outdated concession spaces.

"We love the old Will Rogers Coliseum for its history and tradition, but it's truly become inadequate and outdated," Bass said in a written statement. "A new arena will give us capacity, convenience and amenities on par with the 21st century."

Among those: modern suites, accessibility for the disabled, more box seating and more comfortable seats in general.

Bass and others say a new arena could be used for various events, such as rodeos, circuses, graduations and equestrian events.

The arena would likely be funded with a combination of public and private money -- perhaps as much as half from the private sector, Bass said.

"If we don't start now, we may miss the opportunity," Bass wrote. "It takes time to set up the financing, get the people's approval, do the design and get it built.

"At this point, we would have to go flat out to open in 2010 or 2011."

For now, the city is focusing on making room for a new arena.

The service center, which houses offices for transportation, public works and equipment services, is expected to move to the Fort Worth Federal Center site by late this year or early next year, city officials said.

The current building would then be demolished, and work would begin to realign Harley Avenue to provide room for a future arena.

Next would be landscaping and the construction of a new parking lot, which officials say is greatly needed.

"Will Rogers is so overtaxed in parking," said Kirk Slaughter, the city's public events director. "You could have 10 or 11 events going on any given weekend, with vehicles and horse trailers looking for spaces.

"Relocating Harley Street and turning some of that land into a parking lot will help us with relief parking."

Voters set aside $9.06 million in last year's bond package for the preliminary work, which will cost about $11.3 million, said Sandy Oliver, the city's capital projects manager.

Completing the work outlined in the bond package could take a couple of years, officials said.

"The city is taking positive steps to position the infrastructure and site for a future arena," Bass wrote in his statement. "But the Harley street project is essential even without a new arena.

"We have a parking crisis out there today and the Harley plan will fix it, at least for the interim."

#2 tamtagon

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Posted 24 January 2005 - 09:16 AM

Excellent!

Off topic a little, but every time I watch on TV a championship Rodeo competition from Las Vegas, the proud Texan in me feels a little cheated - that Fort Worth is the perfect city to host event like that.

It may be asking too much, but this arena really should be designed specifically to allow for seating capacity expansion, and the surface parking configuration should anticipate conversion into a pedestrian focused parking structure to accommodate the transit oriented developments associated with a Commuter Rail station.

#3 Urbndwlr

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 01:38 AM

I can't figure out why the people promoting this (City staff, Ed Bass, Stock Show people) don't paint a more ambitious vision for this venue. Rather than just aim to host existing farm and ranch related events, and graduations, why don't they at least say that it could be expanded to host future NHL or NBA franchises? Even if they doubt the short term feasibility, it is the kind of vision in which most cities of our size indulge (and something most cities our size already have - at least one franchise).

I realize I beat the "build it larger" or "make it expandable" drum every time this subject comes up, however I think they are underselling this. Also, in my opinion, many of those behind this appear to have become a bit overly consumed with the farm/ranch convention business here, to the exclusion of other types of tourism (e.g. arts tourism).

This should be a multi-purpose venue that can easily host a first tier sports team should one become interested in Fort Worth. Why build one with 6000 too few seats?? At least build the thing to make it easily expanded to 18-20,000 seats in case such an opportunity arises.

#4 fwpcman

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:12 AM

I totally agree and so I'll add my two cents also. Build it bigger than the Fort Worth Convention Center Arena and then tear that old flying saucer down. Add more convention space with a smaller auditorium (2,000 - 3,000 seating) in its place. But most importantly, there needs to be some major national promotion the new arena in the true spirit of Amon Carter himself.

#5 tamtagon

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 09:24 AM

I realize I beat the "build it larger" or "make it expandable" drum every time this subject comes up, however I think they are underselling this.  Also, in my opinion, many of those behind this appear to have become a bit overly consumed with the farm/ranch convention business here, to the exclusion of other types of tourism (e.g. arts tourism). 


We can take turns beating on this one if you feel overworked. haha

If this venue is primarily intended to host farm/ranch related activities, that's fine, but the community would be better served by a facility designed to host events through out the year. The convention industry volume continues to stagnate at 1993 levels, and just about every large city has/is improving and expanding convention hosting accommodations - it's overkill and at tax payer expense, the primary beneficiaries are hoteliers and those paying for a convention. Nevertheless, industry segment specialization might be the best way for a city/region to expand convention hosting, and (again) the city name "Fort Worth" would carry more equity in the farm/ranch industry segment than any other city in the country.

The annual livestock show and rodeo should not be represent the upper limit of capacity and amenities offered. New product trade shows are big business. International and John Deere should visit Fort Worth once a year to show off what they've got.

#6 Urbndwlr

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 04:34 PM

Nevertheless, industry segment specialization might be the best way for a city/region to expand convention hosting, and (again) the city name "Fort Worth" would carry more equity in the farm/ranch industry segment than any other city in the country. 

 



I don't doubt that the farm/ranch segment is the low hanging convention fruit, however it would be foolish for our city to only pursue it. We really should be also pursuing tourists who will come to town to support our arts-related businesses and our more eclectic attractions. While I realize that these tourists will likely come in much smaller numbers (more in couples for weekends and as small company groups), "arts" tourists are more likely to really boost the businesses of the city's art galleries, unique chef/owner restaurants, and small, independent boutiques.

These two crowds don't have to be targeted at each other's exclusion. It would be naive, however, to expect that Fort Worth's ads touting its stock car races, rodeos, and line dancing venues will attract serious arts enthusiasts.

#7 mosteijn

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Posted 25 January 2005 - 10:32 PM

Eh, I have a feeling this will end up being your basic, average, utilitarian civic arena, so perhaps it's better that it's not NBA or NHL (assuming it exists by 2010 lol) ready. If we managed to get a team willing to give some money to put up an arena, they wouldn't need to use this one and it could be geared towards the stock show and events that would have otherwise been hosted by the Convention Center. And maybe the other arena could be architecturally groundbreaking... :)

#8 John T Roberts

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 06:04 AM

Mitchell Schnurman has put his thoughts on the arena issue in today's Business Section of the Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

http://www.dfw.com/m...ss/10737416.htm

#9 ghughes

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 07:15 AM

And those are good thoughts.

Note the average household income of those who come to town for that "farm and ranch" stuff is triple the average for Fort Worth households. And while I can't say from data or anything, I would suspect that they are more interested in partaking of "city amenities" than typical conventioneers who come to Fort Worth from other large cities.

We really need to understand our strengths as a city, reinforce them, and then build on them. New directions are fine and should be worked, but a few old phrases like "stick to your knitting" and "dance with who brung ya" pop into mind, too.

#10 tamtagon

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 11:09 AM

We really should be also pursuing tourists who will come to town to support our arts-related businesses and our more eclectic attractions. 


Seems like The Amon Carter would be very popular with the farm/ranch related visitors/conventioneers.

"We love the old Will Rogers Coliseum for its history and tradition, but it's truly become inadequate and outdated," Bass said in a written statement. "A new arena will give us capacity, convenience and amenities on par with the 21st century."


This new facility really needs to represent the best in class or Fort Worth will lose business. The opportunity exist to increase market share among existing business segments, and channel the superior equity of Fort Worth to attract similar yet untapped specialty markets. If you have any type of livestock, crop or product used to manage your livestock and/or crop, trading in Fort Worth a couple times a year should be a requirement for industry leaders. Every effort should be taken to consolidate as much of [broadly defined as] farm/ranch trade shows and conventions in Fort Worth.

#11 Urbndwlr

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 09:42 PM

RE: average household income of people showing at the horse shows (as I understood it): $130,000. Sample group size: 600.

That is great. The median figure would be more telling. If Alice Walton was part of the sample group, that outlier would seriously skew the mean (and render it almost irrelevant).

I'm sure more detailed, scientific figures are available. Anyone heard/seen any?

#12 ghughes

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 10:43 PM

If Alice Walton was part of the sample group, that outlier would seriously skew the mean

:)
Dang! I hate mean skews!
:(

#13 fwpcman

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 07:11 AM

Are there any close friends of Alice Walton on this board? Maybe a phone call could be made. How does the Alice Walton Arena sound?

#14 redhead

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 10:41 PM

Demographics from the "Cutting Horse Chatter", if available, should be meaningful. Personally, I would ignore the stock show numbers and focus on the Futurity numbers instead---that's where the dollars are. Shoot, darling, those horse show trailers average more than the income you are reporting...something just must be so wrong.

#15 utamav91

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 12:31 PM

Of course, a one-arena town would be bad for the local hockey team. Both teams (Fire and Brahmas) have always had trouble in January and February hosting home games due to lack of dates, usually resulting in a 8-12 game road trip. The expansion to the Convention Center has helped move some of the events from the arena floor to exhibit halls and so forth, freeing up a few dates in January.

I remember during their last couple of seasons, the Fire actually scheduled most of their games at WRMC in the first and third half of the season, and then during stock show they moved downtown.

WMRC is a great place for hockey, but TCCC is sorta big and with the big domed ceiling and 11,000-seat capacity it's not a very intimate setting for hockey.

Which makes me wonder though...other than a rodeo which could draw 8-10,000 let's say...and hockey that draws 3000-4000 average (but one or two nights a year they can fill the downtown building up with good promotions, group nights, etc.) would FW really need a building as big as (or capable of being expanded to) 20,000 like mentioned above? As long as Dallas has the Mavs and Stars and most of the big concerts are at AAC or Nokia Theater or Starplex, and TCU (3000-5000 most games) plays on campus...seems like 20,000 might be a little big.

Plus, UTA just announced plans to build an arena 6-10000 capacity from what I've read in the papers...would that affect which events might come to FW?

#16 redhead

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 05:10 PM

I think the empahsis is meant to stay on equestrian events. There are some HUGE events that FW cannot even compete for because the arena is too small. California ends up with big deals like the Snaffle Bit Futurity, while other major horse events end up in Las Vegas. I actually think that Columbus, OH built a large equestrian area to draw some of the English shows. (Dressage is huge!) FW is in the center of the country and already has some large events BESIDES the Futurity and the Stock Show---last year we hosted Peruvian Paso and Appaloosa National finals. There is a lot of money in the horse show business and very few venues for those events...with the right facility, we would certainly rise to the top!

#17 tamtagon

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:33 PM

I think the empahsis is meant to stay on equestrian events.  There are some HUGE events that FW cannot even compete for because the arena is too small.  California ends up with big deals like the Snaffle Bit Futurity, while other major horse events end up in Las Vegas.  I actually think that Columbus, OH built a large equestrian area to draw some of the English shows.  (Dressage is huge!)  FW is in the center of the country and already has some large events BESIDES the Futurity and the Stock Show---last year we hosted Peruvian Paso and Appaloosa National finals.  There is a lot of money in the horse show business and very few venues for those events...with the right facility, we would certainly rise to the top!

 


That's the way I'm leaning - build a place to be a regular home for the biggest annual events of which Cowtown is an appropriate location according to conventional wisdom.

#18 cjyoung

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 03:56 PM

I know the equestrian events are very prestigious, but I don't think they are very popular.

I'd rather have 40,000 middle class people in town for NCAA tournament games versus 800 rich folks at a horse show.

The arena will not have my support (if it's funded by taxes) if it doesn't have the capacity to host NCAA basketball.

#19 mosteijn

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Posted 01 February 2005 - 09:17 PM

Why not build an arena now that serves the equestrian and civic needs of the city (I suppose large enough for NCAA b-ball), and eventually, when we actually have a major leauge team, we could build another, larger, more multi-purpose arena. Of course, if someone wants to pay for one sooner rather than later, I'd have no objection. The chances of that are slim though...

#20 gdvanc

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 12:06 AM

I have two impressions from when we talked previously about the new arena:

(1) Competing cities had or were building arenas with higher seating capacity (15k+?);
(2) The current arena is booked pretty solidly year-round.

These impressions may be inaccurate and I'm too lazy tonight to find the old thread to verify them.

Is (1) true? If so, what is driving the 12,000 seat plan? I'm not saying go bigger just because other cities are; we should go with whatever size makes sense. But if we're going to sink a lot of money into it, I'd like to think we aren't building something that's at a disadvantage right out of the chute (so to speak). What is the right size for a great equestrian arena? Somewhere between the size of WRMC and TMS a venue becomes too large to be a good place to watch dressage or calf-roping. About where is that line?

Is (2) true? If so, then as much as I'd like to see a venue for college hoops and other events I wouldn't have a problem with this arena not supporting those activities - especially if designing it to do so would make it a less attractive venue for the equestrian events it will host most of the year. I think you can make a good case for just focusing on making it a top-tier equestrian arena.

If we're going to build something second-rate, though - whether equestrian only or multi-purpose - don't bother.

What is the outlook for a larger multi-purpose arena in the near- to mid-term if we build the equestrian arena? If we don't?

Still haven't seen any useful financial projections or market analysis upon which you could confidently decide whether or not to support the arena. Doubt if I ever will.

#21 renamerusk

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 12:58 AM

Though it does seem inevitable that the powers to be want and will build a new arena in the Cultural District, I remain unalterably oppose to locating it in the CD. I fully support the building of the new arena in the Stockyard District. The advantages of the SD are overwhelming and the potential for creating a true New Orleans like tourist , hotel, restaurant district aka "The Southwest Quarter" is unmatched by any other area in the city.

What, then to do with the WRMC complex?

How about a Federal/Local partnership - use the space to house the Federal Archives Depot which will need a new location after the closing of the GSA comples in South FW. I contend that the Federal Archives are a more compatible use of the land than would be an "12K arena/surface parking complex"

As for a general purpose arena, I don't believe that FW should build an arena which would encourage a professional sports team to come to this city asking for the world. My take on professional basketball and hockey is, as tenants, they are too unreliable (strikes, fan support). A medium sized arena (12-15k), with modest luxury designed for regional agri-business and amateur sports events
such as NCAA/TCU/TWU/Conference/Regional Tournaments/High Schools events would, IMHO, have more success than a large luxury laden facility.

My hope is that the city leadership will see the folly of their CD arena proposal; and shift their attention to developing the Stockyards into its fullest potential and create one of the region's great tourist destination to compliment its outstanding CD and zoological park.

"Keep Fort Worth Folksy!"

#22 normanfd

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 01:22 AM

I'm with Donnie in that I have way too many questions here. If we build an arena by Will Rogers that is intended to host primarily equestrian/rodeo events, I certainly hope that the arena will have a calendar sufficiently full to justify its construction and that its size be large enough to be competitive with similar venues in other cities and to serve the city for decades before becoming obsolete.

I do not think the Cultural District would be a good location for a major multi-sport arena, however. The need for parking alone would be very destructive to the district's character! If Fort Worth were to build such a large arena, may I propose that problematic piece of land east of Downtown in the triangle formed by I-30, I-35W, and US 287. This area is largely cut off from Downtown and all other surrounding neighborhoods because of the freeways surrounding it. The area also has largely unused industrial/commercial facilities and old, often dilapidated housing stock in an area where noise and auto exhaust create a decidedly unhealthy environment for residential life. With three freeways feeding the area, I doubt the transportation expenditures would be anywhere near what is being proposed along I-30 in Arlington for the Cowboys and Rangers, even with providing pedestrian/bike/rail access.

In another thread, I defended the relatively stable Linwood neighborhood against many on this forum who think that its transformation into another So7 would be a good idea. Would y'all agree with me that transforming the area within the Near East Side freeway triangle from an area where children grow up exposed to lead poisoning into an area supporting an arena or other non-residential use benefiting the community would be a better use of resources?

#23 renamerusk

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:00 AM

If Fort Worth were to build such a large arena, may I propose that problematic piece of land east of Downtown in the triangle formed by I-30, I-35W, and US 287. This area is largely cut off from Downtown and all other surrounding neighborhoods because of the freeways surrounding it. The area also has largely unused industrial/commercial facilities and old, often dilapidated housing stock in an area where noise and auto exhaust create a decidedly unhealthy environment for residential life. .... Would y'all agree with me that transforming the area within the Near East Side freeway triangle from an area where children grow up exposed to lead poisoning into an area supporting an arena or other non-residential use benefiting the community would be a better use of resources?

 

Are you touting the demolition of the public housing units which comprise the vast majority of land use in the I30/I35/US287 Triangle. This area is very problematic. It is landlocked by freeways and rail lines; predominated by hills and cliffs; and just too far away from the core of downtown. Not to mentioned the Federally mandated issues which will have to be overcome inorder to displace and then resettle users of public housing.

This suggestion seems utterly impractical, unworkable and politically nieve and as such does not have my support.

#24 normanfd

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:38 AM

Absolutely I advocate demolishing them and finding a better use for the land, preferrably in private hands. The land is not "too far from Downtown." In fact, I can think of no other area closer to Downtown untouched by development. It is only separated from Downtown by I-35W and the rail lines.

Despite being among the closest neighborhoods to Downtown, it has no easy access. To the north and east, it is separated from other areas by the Trinity and acres and acres of parkland with few access points across 287 or the river. To the south, it's blocked by I-30 from other economically distressed areas.

What do you expect these people to do? Stew in their own housing with no access to jobs while praising us the taxpayers for the leaking roofs over their heads?

If we are going to provide public housing assistance to the less fortunate, let's do so in a way that incorporates them into the community so they have access to jobs, health care and child care choices, meaningful bus routes, and other community support.

Cities such as Chicago now know that their huge public housing progects in the 50s-70s were a huge mistake and have been imploding them in favor of alternatives.

It would be better to provide the residents public housing vouchers where they can pick and choose in the free market where to live rather than continue to isolate them away in islands where there is no potential for employment or in buildings the gov't only pretends to maintain.

#25 tamtagon

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 08:59 AM

I remain unalterably oppose to locating it in the CD.  I fully support the building of the new arena in the Stockyard District.


ditto

#26 ghughes

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 09:34 AM

A Stockyards location is great for an equestrian arena, but neither the CD nor the Stockyards are appropriate for a large multi-sport arena. That's an important distinction that should be kept in mind. Between the parking requirements and the access needs, a large facility would be destructive to either area. That's why, if we want to build a really large place that freeway triangle might be a good spot. In other words, size matters.

A smaller equestrian-centric facility would compliment the Stockyards and would be a great addition. Only problem is having the Stock Show split between the CD and the Stockyards would be bad for the participants who want to park their animals in a barn and walk to the rodeo.

#27 cjyoung

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 01:37 PM

If Fort Worth were to build such a large arena, may I propose that problematic piece of land east of Downtown in the triangle formed by I-30, I-35W, and US 287.

 


The same thought enters my mind everytime I'm driving up 287.

#28 renamerusk

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:49 PM

....but neither the CD nor the Stockyards are appropriate for a large multi-sport arena...only problem is having the Stock Show split between the CD and the Stockyards ...

 


FW has not missed a beat from it not having a professional sports team and its image would not be significantly enhanced if one or more teams played here. What might enhanced the image of the city, and how both its inhabitants and visitors think of FW, would be a city of grand thoroughfares, great parks and a riverfront, statues, grand bridges; these I believe would be met with universal support by the populous.

If a new arena is built in the Stockyards District (SD), it would require that the design plans include animal shelters, barns, vetinary facilities, etc. to compliment the agri-business industry. For obvious reasons, the Stock Show should not be split between the CD and SD.



#29 utamav91

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Posted 02 February 2005 - 02:50 PM

getting back to my point, though...shouldn't the 30+ dates a year that the hockey team occupies be considered in the design? Because technically the floor area required for rodeo (or even basketball) is considerably smaller than the 210' or so required for ice events. But to get capacity in the 10,000 range, you'd have to build many more rows higher up on a shorter floor length which would make sightlines less desirable. Which gets back to the question: what percentage of rodeo events would be held in relation to sports/ice/concert events?

#30 renamerusk

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 10:54 PM

Drove down the Stockyard's Exchange Street Sunday night. Approve of the newly implemented One-way Street and the new AmeriSuites Hotel which is poised to open in the very near future.

Still believe that the Stockyards would the best location to build the city's proposed new arena. It is so evident to me that this area is absolutely ideal for such a use.

Keep Fort Worth folksy!

#31 safly

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 11:30 PM

My dos cents worth. Build it at the Masonic School Place. Build it for an Arena Football League team. ;) the best of Rodeos should be in Mesquite or Del Rio (biggest). Horse Shows in San Antonio (Charreada, Painted, quarter horse, etc.)
FW was never known for horses or Rodeo for that matter. So ya'll just get over yourselves!

Been to the painted horse and cutters shows. P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C! Nothing like some gooey Uncle Rico's Cheesed Nachos and a hot choco to say "Welcome to our main event."

If anything, we are an art's town, sorta like SFe, butmore greenery. And a river to make something big appear.
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#32 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 08:29 PM

Safly, what's your problem, man? Of course FW has been known for horses AND rodeo. Get over whatever problem you have with our city. Sure we are not the only ones known for horses and rodeo, but your statement was ridiculous and surprisingly arrogant and hostile to those of us who love this city.

I just returned from a week in D.C. and as much as I love that city there are few joys in life as sweet as returning to my city. That joy and excitement is what initially made me so glad to find this forum. At the time it was mostly people who loved FW, flaws and all, as much as I did. I finally had to respond to you, because your constant negativity about this city is a real drag.

Safly, are you this negative about everything in your life? I hope not. Please remember, this is a truly unique city for many reasons, most of which I seriously doubt you would allow yourself to appreciate from way up there in your ivory tower.

I would love to meet you at some future forum event, and I hope there are no hard feelings for speaking my mind. That being said, either learn to enjoy a few things from FW or at very least only subject us to every other negative comment that pops into your cynical head so that the rest of us may enjoy.

#33 ghughes

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 09:03 PM

An arts town like Santa Fe? I'm not so sure it's the case, but that's not negative. Guess with some we must take the good and the bad, the positive and the negative, the yin and the yang.

safly, the Tai-Chi participant!

I love this city, but if there's one thing that Fort Worth could get over it's the thin-skinned inferiority complex. Confidence can weather criticism, deserved or not. This city has enough good stuff going on to throw back any comments about rodeos and horse shows. Heavens, we grab on to good press like we're love-starved but the reaction to a negative can inspire the thought: "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

(Chinese philosophy and Shakespeare in one post. Appropriate or not, what a forum!)

#34 safly

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 11:07 PM

I love this city, but if there's one thing that Fort Worth could get over it's the thin-skinned inferiority complex. Confidence can weather criticism, deserved or not.


Looks like it worked for one person. :o

This city has enough good stuff going on to throw back any comments about rodeos and horse shows. Heavens, we grab on to good press like we're love-starved but the reaction to a negative can inspire the thought


I know, the rodeo stuff was kinda Bush league. But why is FW all of a sudden tryin to get in this Rodeo venue game. I mean there are soooo many established venues, money makin venues to compete with on a true Rodeo/ circuit entertainment level. The FW Rodeo has to grow leaps and bounds, and I do not think that a new tax infused arena will magically make that so, just my HO (honest opinion). The Santa Fe arts comment was most definately a positive stretch at how this city is viewed by outsiders. A stretch none the least, but it can be a good thing.

Agreed on the whole reaction thingy about any good press that heads FW's way. No hard feelins to ya'll Forumers. But for realz though, enough with the Chinese Proverbial Shakespeare in the Park dialogue. It gets me too Confuscious sometimes. :wacko:

BTW. I love Tai-Chi. Especially the "pouring the wooden ladle of water" movement. Really is a great activity, for all ages.
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#35 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 08:22 AM

My post had nothing to do with a thin-skinned inferiority complex, and certainly had nothing to do with horses and rodeos specifically. It had more to do with the "in your face" attitude showcased by the "get over yourselves" comment. If you want to criticize the city or certain development projects, fine with me. I might not agree and I might say so, but go ahead.
That comment however was useless, hostile and uncalled-for. If safly spent as much time trying to come up with creative ways to fix FW's ills as he currently does trying to convince FWers that this city isn't as great as we think it is, I would happily applaud his efforts.

#36 courtnie

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 08:55 AM

Ahh give him a break....there are loads of things I cant stand about this city and i was born and raised here....we all see things differently..i personally do not like the idea of being Cow Town but what can one do about it...its our heritage..I dont see the point in the new Arena...We have wonderful Fine Arts like the Kimbell, the History Musuem and the Cow Girl...i have no problem embracing our past and being proud to be from here but we need to stop living in the shadow of Dallas..we have just as many or more things that appeal to people as Dallas does. But we do not get the lime light..and we do hold on to things as if thats the last comment we will ever get...who really wants to be known for its dog park..wouldnt you rather be known for something else???? St. Louis has its arch, Seattle has the space needle, Cali has its earthquakes :o etc.... you get the idea... we have cows... :wacko:

#37 cjyoung

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 09:16 AM

The world of the cowtown :o didn't enter my consciousness until I started college. The Fort Worth that I grew up in did not have cowboys, cows or horses. It had gambling shacks, guns, drugs, pimps, players, pushers and plenty of parties (or should I say par-tay :wacko: ).

Peace

#38 mosteijn

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 09:24 AM

This city has enough good stuff going on to throw back any comments about rodeos and horse shows.

 

Hm...but is there anything concrete going on? Sure, there are plenty of good ideas floating around here (and plenty of bad ones too). Correct me if I'm wrong, but in terms of what's actually being built or what actually has approval, there really isn't that much going on.

#39 safly

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:22 AM

QUICK! What comes before PART-B? //,:o ;\\ (Lame attempt at dreadlockin my Smily)

Thanks for havin my back, peeps.

I was seriously never tryin to convey this sense of hostility towards FW and it's leaders. Just a nice get off yor duffs and "WAKE UP!" to reality kinda mssg. The Bass players need to be taking steps in a more positive and PROGRESSIVE trend, if they want to promote this city well. Especially with tax payers moohla. I say have the city back the arts fully. Like get our FW Symphony on some Int'l tours (Chile, Japan, Croatia, Turkey, Mexico, Argentina (GINOBILI!), and Barbados), all for goodwill/promotion of this town and the arts ideals it aligns itself with. Just imagine ColdPlay and the FWSO, LIVE at the FWCC, one night only. Proceeds going towards Save the Music efforts, or Tsunami Fund. It would sell out from all over. Then bring in RadioHead w/ the FWSO, LIVE, one night only. ROD "STEWART!" & CHAKA KHAN :wacko: ..... CHA-CHING! Maybe some Journey action. Really put FW on the map, with our Arts endeavours and accomplishments.

Then bring in the rodeo clowns and cows.
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#40 Yossarian

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 10:58 AM

The symphony goes on tour internationally from time to time. If memory serves, it has toured both China and Russia in the last 20 years.

#41 courtnie

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 11:56 AM

Exactly what im talking about...we need to focus less on horses and cows and more on the arts...... :o

#42 Thurman52

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 12:21 PM

Horses and Cows = big dollars for the City Yes focus on Art but do nothing to slow down the big business of Livestock.

Build the facility and fight to bring back the national rodeo tourney. The building will be full and the entire city will benefit from the increased tourist dollars.

#43 courtnie

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 12:23 PM

Agreed.....and once we have the Rodeo...the artist can paint and draw and sell and display them..and we are all happy and at peace.... :o

#44 cjyoung

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 01:37 PM

QUICK! What comes before PART-B? //,:blink: ;\\ (Lame attempt at dreadlockin my Smily)

Thanks for havin my back, peeps.

I was seriously never tryin to convey this sense of hostility towards FW and it's leaders. Just a nice get off yor duffs and "WAKE UP!" to reality kinda mssg. The Bass players need to be taking steps in a more positive and PROGRESSIVE trend, if they want to promote this city well. Especially with tax payers moohla. I say have the city back the arts fully. Like get our FW Symphony on some Int'l tours (Chile, Japan, Croatia, Turkey, Mexico, Argentina (GINOBILI!), and Barbados), all for goodwill/promotion of this town and the arts ideals it aligns itself with. Just imagine ColdPlay and the FWSO, LIVE at the FWCC, one night only. Proceeds going towards Save the Music efforts, or Tsunami Fund. It would sell out from all over. Then bring in RadioHead w/ the FWSO, LIVE, one night only. ROD "STEWART!" & CHAKA KHAN :D ..... CHA-CHING! Maybe some Journey action. Really put FW on the map, with our Arts endeavours and accomplishments.

Then bring in the rodeo clowns and cows.

 


Hey, what about Stevie Wonder, Al Green and Ronald Isley? :D

#45 courtnie

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Posted 21 June 2005 - 02:59 PM

what about U2.....they like to save stuff......I agree totaly...lets get us on the map!!!! c'mon guys get your miners hats on, your pick axes and lets get to diggin our way to being know for something other then COWS!!! :blink: :D

#46 cberen1

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 11:07 AM

The funny thing about Safly's comments on horses and rodeos is how completely inaccurate they are. In fact, in terms of companion horse numbers, Ft. Worth sits in the center of the highest density horse population in Texas. This is dead center for horse lovers. There are cattle all over the state, but the geography South of Waco is not as conducive to the cattle business as it is in the grasslands North and West of there.

The San Antonio, Hollywoodized version of the Cabllero experience is a great image to portray for a city. But the heart on soul of the Texas cattle business, and the genuine rodeo experience starts here and heads West. San Antonio, Houston and Austin wave their arms in the air and yell, "Hey, we're authentic cowboy people, really! Ya'll." But their rodeos are mostly just carnivals with concerts (particularly Houston's).

My personal opinion is that no rodeo arena should seat more than about 400 people and they should all be outdoors, but that's a personal bias against big rodeos. Fort Worth has a greater claim to the horse culture, rodeo culture and cattle business history than any other major Texas city. To not capitalize on that is foolish.

#47 renamerusk

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 01:17 PM

While a discussion about which major Texas city can stake claim to be the most"cow-est" has engendered some interesting comments, first among the discussions which the proposed arena should engender is which of the three possible locations: Downtown (DTFW), Cultural District (FWCD) or Stockyards (FWSY) is the superior location for a new arena.

It is worth repeating, that an Exchange Street site does now offer multiple and unique amenities including ample and relatively inexpensive land, an existing rail corridor for a light rail line to DTFW via the proposed TRV; and an existing coliseum that could be incorporated into the overall arena complex. The case for FWSY should not or should it be easily dismissed

IMO, the FWSY is by far and away the superior location; with DTFW a distant second; and the FWCD absolutely off of the radar!

Keep Fort Worth folksy!

#48 courtnie

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 03:03 PM

While we may have alot of cows...we sure seem to have alot of bull too.... :blink:
I agree that the FTSYs is the best place for an arena of the cow kind.its the most logical...I think that if you are going to travel here to see and sell cows you should be in the heat of the cow district and what better place but the stockyards...I think that Will Rogers does a good job but I even the stock show isnt doing what it use to IMO..I disagree that we are the cow-est city in Texas. I think there are many other cities, not as big as us, that have more cows and more to do with cows then we do. While we do loves us some cows..we love our racing too. we have the speed way as well as a race track in Cresson.. :D


#49 Buck

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Posted 22 June 2005 - 09:06 PM

I understand the logic of livestock in the Stockyards.

But the Stock Show wanted to move west. The old facilities were out of date. The Cultural District is much better, and I think it's charming to have a mixture of livestock and arts events. That is the combination that sells Fort Worth.

#50 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 23 June 2005 - 07:33 AM

Well said, Buck.





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