70 replies to this topic

[ttomlin]

In case you didn't read it in the paper today.:



Fellowship Church buys warehouse
By SANDRA BAKER
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

STAR-TELEGRAM/RON JENKINS
Fellowship Church plans to convert this former restaurant-supply building into a satellite worship center. FORT WORTH -- Fellowship Church, the megachurch across Texas 121 from Grapevine Mills mall, has bought a 51,465-square-foot warehouse next to Montgomery Plaza for a new satellite worship center.

The building, just off West Seventh Street on the city's near west side, will by year's end be converted into a worship center, replacing Northwest High School, near Alliance in far north Fort Worth, where members have been meeting for the past 2 1/2 years, said Troy Page, the church's communications pastor.

Fellowship Church, with more than 23,000 people attending its weekend services in several locations, bought the building and 4.2 acres on Carroll Street at Fifth Street, and on both sides of Merrimac Street, on Aug. 27, according to county records.

The property is across the street from the redeveloped Montgomery Ward store and catalog distribution center, where SuperTarget anchors the Montgomery Plaza shopping center at the edge of the World War II-era Linwood neighborhood.

The church has about 1,000 members attending services in far north Fort Worth, church officials said. But they anticipate that number growing in the inner city where the church can more easily draw people from the surrounding neighborhoods and west and south Fort Worth, Page said.

"That's such a growing area," he said. "This will be more centrally located. We feel like we have a base we can move in there with. We're excited about the location. It fits who we are."

The building will be renovated to have seating for 1,200 to 1,500 people, Page said.

The building is also large enough to provide meeting and classroom space, particularly for children's programs, he said.

The location is near three large residential and retail projects along West Seventh Street: So7 by Dallas-based Hughes Development, West Seventh by Dallas-based Cypress Equities and Museum Place by Fort Worth-based JaGee Corp.

Fellowship Church was founded in 1990 in Irving and moved to its sprawling Grapevine location in 1998. In addition to the far north Fort Worth satellite, the church opened branch churches in Plano and downtown Dallas more than two years ago.

It also has a location in Miami.

Most megachurches are perched along freeways and highway loops around cities. They are increasingly finding niches within cities but often with controversy over traffic and other issues.

Christ Chapel Bible Church, about three miles from downtown, at 3740 Birchman Ave., draws 3,000 to 5,000 people to four services each Sunday.

Neighborhood residents have complained that the church's operation and growing campus is disrupting the neighborhood and changing its character.

The area where Fellowship is opening its satellite is largely light industrial and commercial but lies near the Linwood residential area in an area surrounded by bars and restaurants.

The building, a warehouse most recently leased by a restaurant-equipment company, was sold by the limited partnership 508 Carroll St., which bought the property in February 2006 from Harold and Toni Gernsbacher. The partnership is part of an investment fund of Fort Worth-based Vintage Capital Partners. Mike Ball of Michael Ball Realty represented the seller.

George Duncan, with The Staubach Co. in Fort Worth, represented the buyer.

[jefffwd]

This cult needs to find somewhere else to locate. The up and coming 7th Street corridor is going to be hurt by these idiots. This is supposed to an up and coming area for nightlife. bars and restaraunts are not going to want to locate near this "church". The "church" will scare away nightlife and probably try to "save" the rest of us trying to enjoy an evening on the town. Sheesh!

[ramjet]

Great! Another McChurch!

Shouldn't there be laws or zoning or the book of Isaiah or something to keep churches from building these awful high school auditorium looking monstrosities - and in an area of town finally gearing up for some interesting architecture and development.

Once again Cowtown - and it pains me to say it - two steps forward, one step back on this one...

[Fort Worthology]

They appear to just be reusing the old Gernsbacher's place, not building anything new.

[safly]

Either way. It will surely KILL any potential deals with future bars/entertainment distr. You know, FUN STUFF. ZONING???
Satellite Worship Center???
Sounds CREEPY?

It's like they feel the NEED to be EVERYWHERE. Surely they have faith that HE is everywhere, so why WASTE money on another SWC? At least build shelters in downtrotten neighborhoods.

[Fort Worthology]

The amount of ire being placed on a church, of all things, moving in to a neighborhood is a bit unsettling, I must say. I am always happy to have businesses and organizations choose inner city locations rather than far-flung suburbs. Referring to these people, who I'm sure are perfectly normal everyday Fort Worthians like any of the rest of us, as a "cult" is rather offensive, IMHO.

And no, "Satellite Worship Center" doesn't sound creepy at all. A lame name, sure, but creepy? Churches have never scared me.

As for bars and restaurants - there are already churches around the area. I doubt another will have that much impact. Heck, there's one almost right across the street from Fred's, and I haven't seen any Bible-thumping mobs trying to block a Saint Frinatra concert there lately. In fact, I'd bet this will bring increases in business from church goers.

They obviously feel they can serve their congregation and perhaps attract new members by getting a location in urban Fort Worth, so yes, they probably feel they need to be there, and if it means a portion of their congregation can spend a few minutes driving to the church rather than half the day out in the suburban sticks sucking up more fuel and dumping more exhaust into the air, then that's swell. Ditto if they've got some sort of children's programs, which might very well be welcomed by all the various neighborhoods near the site.

My only issues will stem from an urban design perspective, since the Gernsbacher's building isn't exactly a shining example of good design. On the whole, though, I can't see getting worked up about a church wanting to have an alternative to a far-flung suburban location.

[JBB]

So the third most influential church in the country wants to open a campus in FW and people are complaining? This is going to dump more than a thousand people out into a growing retail area at least 2, maybe 3, nights a week. I haven't heard much about their Uptown campus in Dallas killing the neighborhood.

[ramjet]

So the third most influential church in the country

Huh?

To your point AtomicGlee (and I'm not trying to be mean spirited and I dig your website, btw) - for me it's the idea of an ugly warehouse gussied up to be a church, especially in that neighborhood given its potential. I'm sure the members are perfectly fine folks when they're not voting red, but if there's gotta be a church there, can't they build one that's a more soaring monument to faith? And did I say "especially in that neighborhood" which has so much potential to be visually and architecturally unique. Why couldn't they've purchased the Buick dealership on North University or some abandonded grocery store on the Jacksboro Highway or better yet, opened their next satellite in Dallas?

[Bart]

So the third most influential church in the country wants to open a campus in FW and people are complaining? This is going to dump more than a thousand people out into a growing retail area at least 2, maybe 3, nights a week. I haven't heard much about their Uptown campus in Dallas killing the neighborhood.

Although it may only be 1 -3 nights / week, if they are proposing a membership number as referenced in the paper, Carroll St traffic from 7th and White Settlement will definitely need to be addressed sooner than later. Although, good thing Mont Plaza and So7 developments are moving as slow as ever. Problem will be at White Settlement considering the anticipated construction work for the TRV bridge. Not sure of City plans for T&PW in this area but hope they got things in the works. Otherwise, they will be falling behind before they know it.

In regard to killing a neighborhood, if the result of keeping the existing bldg and sprucing it up a bit simply means we get to look at another "box" bldg that could possibly have been removed and potentially replaced with something better, then yes, I would say that it could kill the neighborhood. Let's hope they do something good with the project.

[JBB]

So the third most influential church in the country

Huh?

http://churchrelevan...america-of-2007

[Fort Worthology]

To your point AtomicGlee (and I'm not trying to be mean spirited and I dig your website, btw) - for me it's the idea of an ugly warehouse gussied up to be a church, especially in that neighborhood given its potential. I'm sure the members are perfectly fine folks when they're not voting red, but if there's gotta be a church there, can't they build one that's a more soaring monument to faith. And did I say "especially in that neighborhood" which has so much potential to be visually and architecturally unique." Whey couldn't they've purchased the Buick dealership on North University or some abandonded grocery store on the Jacksboro Highway or better yet, opened their next satellite in Dallas.

I figure that buying Gernsbacher's lets them get their foot in the door sooner for a lower price, thereby making the deal work for them, so good for them. The church near Fred's gussied up an old commercial building fairly nicely, so that aspect of it doesn't bother me that much. They can always rebuild later on with a better structure as Christ Chapel has done (though I wish CC had built theirs right on Montgomery with parking to the rear - it would be a very grand structure closer to the street).

And I'm sorry, but "when they're not voting red?" Good people are good people regardless of political affiliation. I'm a Libertarian, but since most of our guys never have a hope I vote according to positions and views in context of the office rather than party affiliation, and have voted for several "reds" over the years. Do you think I'm evil now?

Perhaps it was the "cult" reference that set me off.

I would much rather see them moving so close to the core as they are doing than even out on North University or Jacksboro. It shows to me the desire building for that area, and that's a very good thing. There's going to be plenty of architectural variety happening - one church in an former commercial box won't stop that, I bet.

[ramjet]

And I'm sorry, but "when they're not voting red?" Good people are good people regardless of political affiliation. I'm a Libertarian, but since most of our guys never have a hope I vote according to positions and views in context of the office rather than party affiliation, and have voted for several "reds" over the years. Do you think I'm evil now?

Why I'm a Libertarian myself. In fact, someone trying to sell me a fake watch on the sidewalk told me I was the third most influential Libertarian in the country. So, no, you can't possibly be evil - even with a few red blemishes.

Now Christ Chapel is what I'm talking about. Really beautiful building - inside and out! I agree on the placement, though.

Regarding the warehouse-turned-chapel-rama and what might replace it someday, I'm afraid the dye is cast. Since development in Fort Worth seems to move like ketchup out of a bottle, it'll likely be around for a long time to come...

[JBB]

Is that an ax to grind with Fellowship Church in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

[safly]

I agree that if there are children educational and safe harbor programs being placed there, then it's a win win for the community. But why does a 3rd MOST influential church (WHATEVER THE HECK THAT MEANS) in the country care to expand within the same county? I am not an avid church goer, haven't been for some time now. But I remember the days when you went to one church and it established the community. And even if you moved to the other side of town, you still made it to that same church a few times a year on those HDO's or special engagements.

Now it's like perhaps we can "influence" our mission and pick up even more of a "congregation" over by this booming development. I HATE IT when churches OBVIOUSLY follow the money. Or even create these venues as if it were needing to perform by some BUSINESS plan/objectives. Community outreach and attracting new members are two totally different outlooks on FAITH based projects. What happened to building a church from the ground up, where did we lose that concept over the years? Now if they turned this warehouse into a manufacturing depot for small scale affordable housing materials, then GREAT! I just don't see it here.

I too could care less about certain FORMS of Christianity and political affiliations. My faith is stronger than getting into that kinda argument.

[ICD]

After their church services, they can go get drunk at the Bronx Zoo or The Shamrock. Maybe drive a few blocks to Fred's. Being Catholic, that's what I do after church, so I assume these folks will be the same

[McHand]

Safly, for better or for worse these days many churches have adopted a franchise business model. Actually the idea has been around for a long time, except in the past it consisted mainly of members of a growing church branching off into new, independent congregations. Now it seems these "multi-campus" churches have more of a chain feeling. I guess it goes back to operating a church in a manner more in line with mainstream business practices.

I personally prefer to attend a congregation that grew organically out of the neighborhood.

[safly]

Look, what I know and REALLY don't get is that there are sooo many people in the local business scene who attend CERTAIN churches just to build a network. And just claiming to know someone from church will AUTOMTICALLY give them a business leg up on transactions, contracts and funding. Pretty darn sad if you tell me. The MAN would be tossin their market tables all over the place. I grew up in a Catholic family and we just showed up a little late, took up half a pew, prayed, concentrated on the IRISH sometimes INDIAN accent, ate what we received and SHUT UP! The inner faith is just as equal if not more important as the congregational oriented faith. I don't need $10K audio system blaring hymnals or TV CAMERAS (GOOD GRIEF) and silk tie wearin preachers to SAVE me. I understand the business model direction, but run a business, not make business out of FAITH. Do GREAT DEEDS and then receive your charity in good faith. Don't setup shop and expect the money to come in and SAVE people. And I'm sorry to offend, but the ACT of "saving" someone is not a GREAT DEED justifiable to the human reality. Build homes and shelters and provide schooling and food for the needy, MUUUUCH DIFFERENT.

[ramjet]

Is that an ax to grind with Fellowship Church in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

No ax - just really don't want to see that particular site used as a church.

Anyway, Fort Worth, which I consider sort of the "New Hampshire" of Texas cities due to its fierce independence and seeming aversion to fads and trends, has yet to embrace the non-denominational-mega-church-in-a-Target-building fad that has swept other Texas cities. Even Christ Chapel, which some might argue fits that description, has a more traditional approach both in ideology and architecture.

I read somewhere that Fort Worth is home to over 700 churches already, so it's not like some heathen wasteland (although I also read that Cowtown has more bars per capita than Dallas - woohoo!). So maybe there's hope for a Crate and Barrel yet....

[jefffwd]

Is that an ax to grind with Fellowship Church in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?

No ax - just really don't want to see that particular site used as a church.

Anyway, Fort Worth, which I consider sort of the "New Hampshire" of Texas cities due to its fierce independence and seeming aversion to fads and trends, has yet to embrace the non-denominational-mega-church-in-a-Target-building fad that has swept other Texas cities. Even Christ Chapel, which some might argue fits that description, has a more traditional approach both in ideology and architecture.

I read somewhere that Fort Worth is home to over 700 churches already, so it's not like it's some heathen wasteland (althought I also read that Cowtown has more bars per capita than Dallas - woohoo!). So maybe there's hope for a Crate and Barrel yet....

You hit the nine inch nail on the head! Once the new SuperTarget opens by Ridgmar the cult idiots can have the Cherry Lane Target building and we won't have to look at them!
It's sinfully delicious

[safly]

AG is right. Please refrain from "name calling" or "denominational bashing" here. We can have a MATURE and viable discussion kept here. Can't we people???

Interesting take on the bar trends. Where can one get that kind of information, and dissect more data such as ratio of bars to churches, and bar boom/growth trend in relation to church boom/growth trend for TCounty? Interesting find if true.

One other Q, is it me or is FC in general CHOOSING to lay their ministry works in "well to do" areas for the most part? An example is if they would choose to open an SWC in S.Hemphill area or E.Lancaster, then the Q would not arise. Personally, I BELIEVE that religion or faith is blind to color, age or financial status, but it seems a many of ministries/congregations throughout the US have thought otherwise in past years. Big business??? As in WHY must one sell "products" or "GOD Gear" to strengthen one's faith? I am also not a BIG fan of abusive 501C tax status. Not claiming such is being used here, but the intent gets very misguided sometimes.

[hannerhan]

I agree that if there are children educational and safe harbor programs being placed there, then it's a win win for the community. But why does a 3rd MOST influential church (WHATEVER THE HECK THAT MEANS) in the country care to expand within the same county?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say... because they think a lot of people would rather attend in West Fort Worth than drive 35 minutes to Grapevine?

[safly]

That's a good reason, so then what happens to the Grapevine location. Big loss in membership? It goes back to the WWJD bumper sticker, so if you absolutely need your FC fix, then get in the pickup or sports car and head on over to Grapevine. I STILL do not comprehend why one congregation chooses to throw so many $$$'s at what is essentially a recruiting campus, especially when it will only affect your establishment one maybe two days out of the week. Is it just me or are churches doing a far better job every year in WASTING funds than what used to be the norm???

I say you still run ministry from a certain location, much like at a minimum what Cornerstone does in SA. Have it built from the ground up, get involved with education/athletics/ arts in order to help SHAPE the lives of our impressionable youth, then go out and do GREAT DEEDS with the ministry funds. Be remembered and revered with good acts, not just simply here we are now notice us. I still see the inherent risks with this.

And if they wanted people to attend in REAL West FW, then take over some place near the Ridgmar Mall/RAVE movie theater. Build up that area of town, not do the "Johnny Come lately" act of all acts riding along the coattails of the MW project and W7th appeal.

[Dismuke]

The bigotry expressed in this thread is breathtaking.

For the record, before I begin my little rant, I do not belong to any church and do not have a religious bone in my body. And I have no doubt the majority of the membership of that church probably believes that I am destined to burn in hell.

That having been said - until they start doing things like flying planes into buildings or sending suicide bombers into crowds or other forms of physical force, people have the right to believe whatever the heck they wish and to worship whatever they wish and however they wish. And in a free country, that means they can do it wherever they wish so long as it is on their property and not on someone unwilling other's property or on government property.

If that church has purchased the building - well it is theirs and they have a right to engage in any sort of peaceful behavior that they wish in it.

This thread sounds like a bunch of wannabe petty dictators going around telling other people that they look down upon and/or disagree with what they must and must not do with their legally purchased property.

Who the heck appointed YOU God or Commissar?

If you or prospective nightclub patrons are offended at the sight and the thought of people coming and going to a nearby church - well TOUGH! In a free country, people can and will do things that you dislike, disagree with and find offensive. I think rock music is offensive and I think people who are inebriated are offensive - and so long as I am not forced to be exposed to either while I am on my own property, my dislikes in that area are nobody's problem but my own. You have about as much right to demand the church goers to vacate the neighborhood as I do to demand the drunks and rock music to leave the neighborhood - which is absolutely NO RIGHT AT ALL.

As for people who approach me on the streets trying to "save" me - well, I do with them exactly what I do with homeless people or people who try to recruit me to some political cause I disagree with and other similar pests: I respectfully say "no, thank you." If they refuse to allow that to be the end of the conversation, I give them a mouthful of words they probably don't want to hear and go about my business. If it ever got to the point that one of them put their hands on me - which has yet to happen - I would telephone the police and press charges.

Everyone is entitled to their likes and dislikes. Some people's likes and dislikes are entirely rational and valid. Other people's likes and dislikes are idiotic or tasteless, or bigoted, or irrational or a combination of the above. It really doesn't matter. In a civilized, free society, NOBODY has the right to IMPOSE his likes and dislikes on other people.

This cult needs to find somewhere else to locate.

Really? They need to? And exactly who is going to make them? And by what means? What happens if they resist? And, above all, by what right?

Spoken like a true little authoritarian.

As for the "cult" charge - I know absolutely nothing about that church and am thus in no position to comment on it one way or another. But I vividly recall you being the same person who once, on this very forum, referred to the people who shopped at Montgomery Ward as "low lifes." In other words, you have a track record of making unjust, condescending, bigoted and snobbish pronouncements about people you disagree with and/or look down upon. So, as far as I am concerned, your charge of cultism towards the membership of that church has about as much cognitive value to me and will be taken about as seriously as if I heard it uttered from the throat of a parrot - i.e., as nothing more than a bunch of arbitrary syllables that happen to coincide with the pronunciation of words that have actual meaning.

The "church" will scare away nightlife and probably try to "save" the rest of us trying to enjoy an evening on the town. Sheesh!

I'll tell you what scares me: people who go around presuming to tell other people who are engaging in perfectly peaceful behavior what they "need" to do and, in effect, ordering them to go away in the name of conforming to their idea of the way things ought and ought not to be. Oh - yes, there just happens to be a whole lot of people in this part of the country who do exactly that in the name of.....religion. And this thread is proof that there are also plenty of people who engage in the same sort of authoritarian bigotry justified by entirely secular rationalizations. As far as I am concerned, an authoritarian bigot is an authoritarian bigot - one's particular excuse for attempting to justify it is irrelevant and unimportant.

[hannerhan]

Well said.

[cberen1]

Maybe it's already in the thread somewhere, but wouldn't the addition of a church to the area preclude the opening of any new restaurants and bars within 1,000 ft (or something like that)? My next statement is entirely contingent on that assumption. If I'm wrong, ok, then I agree with Dismuke.

I guess my point, in reference to Dismuke's post, is that it really may affect some people if the church decides to plop down in the middle of that area. Everyone should have equal rights to do as they please on their own property, but churches have unequal rights. Their presence affects my ability to do as I please on my own property. Today I can open a bar, a month from now I can't. How is that fair? Up to this point there has been a very common vision for that area. This seems to disregard that vision. And for what? That commuter church could go anywhere.

In many ways it's no different than the debate about putting McMansions in the arts district. Sure, you can do it, but should you?

[Fort Worthology]

Maybe it's already in the thread somewhere, but wouldn't the addition of a church to the area preclude the opening of any new restaurants and bars within 1,000 ft (or something like that)? My next statement is entirely contingent on that assumption. If I'm wrong, ok, then I agree with Dismuke.

I'm no expert on liquor laws, but as I understand it, the law that I think would most affect the area is the "can't sell alcohol if your entrance is within 300 feet of a church's entrance via streets and sidewalks" or whatever it is. That doesn't strike me as a particularly difficult law to get around, though, since it's not "as the crow flies." Witness Mikado and Pour House in downtown, both serving alcohol with the First Christian Church on the next block - but since the entrances of the Pour House/Mikado are more than 300 feet from First Christian's when following the sidewalks, it's not a problem.

I could be wrong, though, but as far as I know that would be the biggest law.

[PLS]

Well said.

i second that. hannerhan, we've been agreeing a lot lately.

[vjackson]

I don't know much about this church, except from what I've seen at their downtown Dallas location. I mentioned in another thread about this that the church did a good renovation of a warehouse and the church is attractive. From what I've seen when jogging pass the church, in DTD anyway, it attrracts a mostly young, diverse group of people. They don't look much different than the young, diverse patrons of the bars, restaurants, and residences nearby. Matter of fact, I'm sure a good number of the congregation ARE some of the same people who live, work, and play nearby. I don't think a church is necessarily a good fit to this area, but I don't know if it will be a bad one either. I think it's dependant on what type of crowd it brings to the cultural district. I'm far from religious and the "mega church" trend going on across the country creeps me out. But I think this is going to have to be a "wait and see what happens" scenario.

[Dismuke]

Everyone should have equal rights to do as they please on their own property, but churches have unequal rights. Their presence affects my ability to do as I please on my own property. Today I can open a bar, a month from now I can't. How is that fair?

Yes. This is an absolutely valid point. And if that was the reason people gave for their opposition to the church moving in, I wouldn't have gone off on my little rant. The solution to it is not to prevent churches from going into neighborhoods but to repeal the idiotic laws that give them unjustified say-so over peaceful, private behavior on neighboring properties on grounds that they disagree with it. If a church has a problem with people engaging in behavior it regards as sinful and corrupt within a certain distance of its facility - well, then it needs to buy enough land so that it can locate on the center of the property and be beyond that distance.

The irony of this thread is that certain people in it sound EXACTLY like some of the worst examples of the very people that they claim to be opposed to. Two examples over in the Dallas area come to mind on this:

Years ago on the television news there was a big story out of Mesquite about a proposal to allow restaurants within a certain distance of LBJ freeway to operate private clubs that would allow them to circumvent the bizarre "dry area" laws and enable their customers to purchase alcoholic beverages with their meals. This was being pushed in a very big way by a number of people in the city as a way of making it viable for major restaurant chains to locate in the city - which they had avoided because of the restrictions. One of the churches in that town went ballistic. The restaurants would not have even been located anywhere near the church. I very vividly remember the preacher for that church appearing on one of the local newscasts. When he spoke, he sounded like he fell off of a turnip truck or something. He stated that he was opposed to the restaurants because, when church members go to church for services, they would have to drive past and see those houses of sin (i.e., Steak & Ale, Olive Garden, etc). He then made a statement that made me fall out of my chair in laughter. He made a "slippery slope" argument and said: "If these private clubs are allowed, before you know it, we will see topless waiters here in Mesquite."

The other example was in Old East Dallas where the Hari Krishna have a temple. For religious reasons, they are vegetarian and on the grounds of their temple they operate a vegetarian restaurant (which, by the way, I have been to - the food they serve is not only delicious, it is VERY inexpensive). Some years ago, it was announced that a McDonalds restaurant would go in down the street from their temple. Here too, they pitched a total fit and launched a (fortunately) unsuccessful campaign to prevent the McDonalds from being allowed to open. They have every right in the world to hold however negative of an opinion they choose about the practice of eating meat and of the people who do so. And they have every right in the world to try and persuade as many people as they can to come around to their way of thinking on the issue. They do not, however, have a right to make any sort of demands on those who reject their point of view.

Unfortunately, some of the postings in this thread against the church are really no different in tone or spirit than the above examples of religious bigots attempting to get the government to impose their belief systems and moral codes on everyone else.

And for those "ends justify the means" types who really believe that their views are so intrinsically desirable that it justifies shoving them down other people's throats - well, consider this: In this part of the country, you will probably find that a VERY sizable percentage of the population considers themselves religious and is at least somewhat sympathetic to the values of that church. If the local government gets involved, if push comes to shove, it will be those who have the most warm bodies on their side who will prevail. Ask yourself if that is really what you want. If it were up to a democratic vote as to whether a Wal-mart or "upscale retail" goes into that neighborhood - who do you think is going to win? Do you really think that the majority of people in Fort Worth even give a squat that some people fantasize that West 7th is going to somehow become "Fort Worth's Champs Elysees"? Those who demand that "something be done" to stop people from engaging in peaceful behavior on grounds that they consider it to be offensive, sinful, tasteless, low life or whatever do so on the premise that they or people sympathetic to them will be the ones doing the dictating. Is it really a sound presumption that people sympathetic to your views will always be in political power? The power you agitate to give them to dictate against those you dislike could someday come back to haunt you in a VERY big way when the very same people you dislike end up in control with that same authority you agitated for being used to dictate against YOU.

[safly]

DISMUKE. You and PLS are soooo WIGGIN!

I and everyone else on this topic have ABSLUTELY NO problems with FC running as FC. The problem that I assume will arise is that with an FC stake being plopped right smack in the middle of what was to be an Entertainment District (of sorts) will MOST LIKELY hamper certain development of certain businesses that certain folks would love to see OPEN for business. It's like, what is stopping those developers of MW and/or the big restaurants/bars within MW from ponying up some cash to lure FC on over to make a "satellite worshiping center". Could that be POSSIBLE??? SURE! IF and only IF the said zoning laws apply. Mr. Mcentire has purchased or purportedly purchased property near the now Shamrock on 7th St. So how will this move affect his business, which MANY of FW'ians have admired long before I moved into town. I don't HATE FC, but I also do not agree with how certain churches operate at an "opportunistic" inspired level. To paraphrase one poster here, "like it or not, churches these days operate on a business plan oriented environment." I do see this as a "Johnny come latelys" brandish move, and by a church(of any kind) IMO is unfortunate. I would PREFER a church(of any kind) to help BUILD neighborhoods and areas of a town/city (that especially need it), and not jump in like it's a frikken goldrush.

We aren't hate mongers, I could care less about worshipping "Mega Church" goers or "McChurches" or the SBCoalition. It is our American right to assemble (like IKEA stuff?), to FREE speech (unless you want it on a network channel) and religious freedom (I know, Catholicism and Freedom are just so awkward together , lol!). Some may hold one right in higher regards than the other, but to be allowed to practice them all is what counts in my book. And yes, on the flipside of the coin our rights/laws are free to be scrutinized. Darn better believe it!

So CB has made a great point in that certain laws/restrictions affect an uneven tone in this situation. IF the FC move DOES NOT hinder said and much anticipated development, then ALL IS GOOD.

QUIT WIGGIN here!

POINT here is that TABC and zoning laws can "SUCK IT!"

[MetroCode]

To answer Atomic and others question: The 300 ft rule is true. You have to make a lined path from the door of the bar to the entrance of the church. Below is a crude example to show how easy it is to eat up that footage. You do not just make the straight line across but indeed have to make a "triple L" in some cases.

I really feel this conversation has turned south for all content purposes. Many of you have made valid points but, the clarity and intent of the actual forum and topic have been fogged up. I only come here to discuss the projects that will dictate the direction of our future Fort Worth today. I care nothing for religion or political discussions as there are ample sites you can visit elsewhere than Fortwortharchitecture.com.

[Dismuke]

DISMUKE. You and PLS are soooo WIGGIN!

Uhhmm.....excuse me, but I am not the one who is getting his knickers in a wad about the church buying the property and going around like a petty tyrant saying that certain people need to leave certain neighborhoods. And I am not the one going around accusing people I disagree with of being a "cult" without providing a single shred of evidence to back up what, to any rational person, is a very serious and derogatory accusation (not that I am asking for such evidence in this instance as it is really utterly irrelevant: even if the church were a cult it wouldn't make any difference. So long as one is an adult, one is perfectly free to join a cult if he is foolish and/or gullible enough to want to do so). So you might wish to reexamine exactly who is "soooo WIGGIN."

The problem that I assume will arise is that with an FC stake being plopped right smack in the middle of what was to be an Entertainment District (of sorts) will MOST LIKELY hamper certain development of certain businesses that certain folks would love to see OPEN for business.

If people wish to attempt to establish an entertainment district or improve that area in some other way - well, good for them. Go for it. But if they are not able to obtain the voluntary cooperation of all the necessary people - well, then maybe they don't get their entertainment district. Too bad. We don't always get the things we want. One's wishes, desires and "would love to see" sentiments, regardless as to how exalted one asserts them to be, do NOT impose an obligation on other people. If people who subscribe to a particular "vision" for the area wish to increase their odds, then they should be the ones forking up the cash to purchase as many of the surrounding properties as people are willing to sell them and either develop or deed restrict them accordingly.

Likewise, if certain people in the area object to the establishment of an entertainment district - well, that's their tough luck as well. Unless the new businesses cause some sort of material impact on their property such as loud noises, noxious odors, the spread of vermin, etc., they have no valid basis to make demands. Neighborhoods change and evolve - sometimes in ways we consider to be positive and sometimes otherwise. If one is concerned about that, then one should locate one's home and/or business in an area where there are deed restrictions or a very strong, like-minded property owners' association. You have no more right to demand that the church not locate there than do the residents of Linwood have a right to demand that the bars, restaurants and shops not locate there.

I don't HATE FC, but I also do not agree with how certain churches operate at an "opportunistic" inspired level. To paraphrase one poster here, "like it or not, churches these days operate on a business plan oriented environment." I do see this as a "Johnny come latelys" brandish move, and by a church(of any kind) IMO is unfortunate.

On what basis should the members of that church care for one single second what you think - or what I think, for that matter? Think whatever you will of them, so long as they do not resort to force or fraud, how they choose to conduct their affairs is nobody's business but their own.

I would PREFER a church(of any kind) to help BUILD neighborhoods and areas of a town/city (that especially need it), and not jump in like it's a frikken goldrush.

I am afraid your preferences are utterly irrelevant in this context. They do NOT impose an obligation on other people. I, for one, would prefer that shops and restaurants not play crappy, non-melodic rock music which I consider to be extremely obnoxious and irritating. Well, fat chance of that ever happening. Obviously the owners and other patrons of such establishments prefer otherwise. And since it is their establishment, not mine, and they were the ones who put in the hard-earned capital and effort and time to make it possible, they are the ones who get to call the shots and not me. My only choice is to either grin and bear it or find some other establishment to patronize that does not offend my sensibilities as much.

If people here don't like how a church runs its private affairs - don't join it. If you are in any way offended by a church (or certain ethnic and/or demographic groups, or unconventional lifestyles, etc.) being in close proximity to you, then move out to the country and buy lots of land to provide a buffer to prevent them from ever locating too close to you. And if you can't afford such land - then tough. You will have to learn to live with the fact that there are people in this world whose values clash with your own. And if you have a "vision" for how other people's property in a certain area of town might be best put to use - well, then you either persuade the property owners of the merits of your vision or have very deep pockets to buy them out and make the vision a reality yourself. If you are unable to do either - well, your "visions" are utterly irrelevant and of no concern to anyone but yourself and possibly your psychologist.

So CB has made a great point in that certain laws/restrictions affect an uneven tone in this situation. IF the FC move DOES NOT hinder said and much anticipated development, then ALL IS GOOD.

The church has no right to make demands of area businesses or to prevent new ones from moving to the area. And nobody has yet to provide a shred of evidence that the church in question intends to do so. The possible imposition of that idiotic zoning law in this instance is a very valid concern. The proper response is to agitate for its repeal or, if that is not politically feasible, then at the very least, for an exemption to be granted in this particular instance.

But let's say the other poster is correct and it DOES hinder the much anticipated development because the mere existence of the church in that setting will, for whatever reason, scare off potential restaurant and bar patrons. I personally find that rather difficult to believe - but let's just say that it is true. Then tough. That is an unfortunate business risk that those who cater to such a fickle and intolerant customer base have to take into consideration and deal with. It really is no different than certain people's assertions that Dollar Tree and Payless Shoes should vacate Montgomery Plaza on grounds that the alleged "low life" customers such establishments allegedly attract supposedly scare off the more "desirable" types of customers that certain people prefer to see shopping in the area.

You can wish for and prefer whatever you like. But you do not have a right to insist that others obey accordingly. And, unfortunately, that is all too often the tone of the discussion whenever the subject of this particular part of town comes up.

[safly]

Thanks for clarifying MC. And RD???

I was just stating my view, and how I do NOT categorize FC with some "cult" status.

I agree that if the market dictates the consumer trends at said exisiting bars and clubs, then fine with that. But if a LAW dictates that one party has an IMMINENT advantage over another, then most would have a problem with that these days. And I will continue to scrutinize a "business" that is tax exempt and has advantageous zoning and tax PRIVLEDGES on this site, because CERTAIN folks are readin this site now (THANKS to FWW) and WILL SOON GET it right. IMO.

But we can agree to disagree. I'll still JAM your flapper tunes. All good!

[Thurman52]

Drove by today, and looks like they are already clearing the inside of the building out.

[PLS]

posted this in the other thread that picked up the fc discussion, might as well post here as well:

considering this is a "satellite worship center" - essentially a media outpost of the actual church - does it qualify the same as a church building with regard to zoning? i don't know that anyone has answered that question either. mc, perhaps you can shed some light?

[MetroCode]

i'll assume that MC is me, Metro Code.
Here is how the city views it according to my talk with someone in the planning /zoning departments

(1) Since satellite worship centers are a new phenom in the building lexicon, they are at this time not counting them as churches. Reasons will vary but with background knowledge on this church, the services are performed via Satellite i.e Television. They do not host anything more than a big screen and offering plates. Classes are only offered at the main campus and thus, religious ceremony or gathering as defined in the codes is not appyling here.
(above in 1st post is says room for classes and children stuff but, spokes person at church said that it is intending only for service broadcast at this time)

For the time being, this isn't a church but simply an Assembly area for large groups.

I am attempting to bid to perform BMEP review and inspections on the remodel. As information comes out, i'll post up.

[PLS]

i'll assume that MC is me, Metro Code.
Here is how the city views it according to my talk with someone in the planning /zoning departments

(1) Since satellite worship centers are a new phenom in the building lexicon, they are at this time not counting them as churches. Reasons will vary but with background knowledge on this church, the services are performed via Satellite i.e Television. They do not host anything more than a big screen and offering plates. Classes are only offered at the main campus and thus, religious ceremony or gathering as defined in the codes is not appyling here.

For the time being, this isn't a church but simply an Assembly area for large groups.

I am attempting to bid to perform BMEP review and inspections on the remodel. As information comes out, i'll post up.

and there you have it folks... your bars are safe. cheers!

[safly]

HOORAY Satellite CAMPUSES!!! And existing zoning laws! and FW Forumers getting the answers RIGHT AWAY!
Thanks MC! Thanks a Million Clams!

Now CELEBRATION! BMOC style!

Great



and even more




plus a happening




= BMOC!

[ghughes]

Well I'm glad everyone got the church bashing out of their systems.

My take: Bad side is property taken off tax rolls. Good side is less Sunday commuting. Added traffic to area? Probably good for business but not so much for the bars.

[safly]

BTW. Mr. Cef Zambrano does await our FORMAL FWFORUM invitation, as it would be his absolute PLEASURE in serving, educating and drinking with the BMOC group of FW. Spoke with him lastnight, his place is GORGEOUS. He is also interested in what our website members have to say about his website, his interior design work and his selection. Can't wait.

So what's the best date and time? I say within the next 2 weeks or Nov. 2nd, to kick off the Nov. 3rd tailgate (crossing fingers that he will be there to showcase some wine tastings at TCU)

Wonderful man who cares so much about our city, and I hope EVERYONE can attend.

Z Wine Cellar at 910 Houston St. in SoDo

[Matt615]

Drove by the other day and they already have banners up that say its coming soon. However it looks like this building has no where near the parking to hold 1000 attendees, let alone 100. I suppose MP will get the overflow parking?

[safly]

That does make one wonder??? Will this be a studio of some sort, you know, to air their business to a video feed and then to other places of worship. FC does sell products, so it's not much of a stretch.

COMING SOON??? One could misinterpret such an ad and think of something totally different. Like THE END.

[JulieM]

Safly, you tell Cef that Julie from AHHS said hi and that he better start showing up again at the reunion planning committee meetings.

I haven't been yet to his establishment, but have heard from friends that it's breathtaking. As for his website, I do think it could be a little more refined.

[safly]

You got it. And let's not forget about what we talked about last time we met.

[Fort Worthology]

I have been hearing that the church is trying to buy the shops & houses behind it to tear them down and build a parking lot.

This, I have a problem with.

[urban_fever]

I have been hearing that the church is trying to buy the shops & houses behind it to tear them down and build a parking lot.

This, I have a problem with.

I have been wondering about how they were going to work in parking. I have had no problem with them coming in until i read this. If they are going to come into a neighborhood that is trying to evolve into a dense & walkable urban village then they should at least have the decency to build a parking garage. It is things such as this that make me think that FellowshipChurch.com has no real interest in contributing to the community; their only concern is boosting their church membership, influence, and revenue. If they truly cared about being a contributing member of the west 7th Street regeneration then they would at least have the consideration to follow proper urban design guidelines. Someone needs to let them know that this is not suburban Grapevine or Alliance.

[safly]

^^^^

Well I NEVER.

If true, then one can't help but recall that Ezekiel passage made famous in the Pulp Fiction movie.

[bhudson]

Someone needs to let them know that this is not suburban Grapevine or Alliance.

No, but it is an area with zoning that might allow them to do this. Turn you efforts toward fixing the real problem, don't get pissed at the church for acting within their legal right.

[Fort Worthology]

The city needs to get off their arse and get some sort of cohesive zoning for the CD, in the same way that Fort Worth South Inc. is putting together for the southside. People should not be able to come in to that area and put down lakes of parking lots as happened at Montgomery Plaza. If all the developers played as nicely as the Museum Place, West 7th, and So7 folks it wouldn't be so urgent, but we've got to prevent crap like this from ruining the near west side before it really gets rolling.

Stick to the 'burbs if you wanna pave it all. We need to expect more from people building in the central city.