228 replies to this topic

[Dallastar]

You know I love the way you guy's stick up for your city. I was born and raised in Dallas, and have lived here my whole life. Although I have visited many cities but for me there is no place like Dallas, it is my favorite place and I will defend it till the end. And I love the way you fort Worth guy's do the same. Don't let anyone downgrade your city I don't care where there from.
If you guys ever venture over to the "Dallasmetropolis forum" you will see that the guys over there give Fort Worth a lot of praise.

[austlar]

Levy is one of those French intellectuals that regards Paris as the center of the universe. He came to this country to whip off a quick best-seller for the folks back in France, the ones that hang on his every word. I've only read reviews of this book, but I understand that it is a condescendingly affectionate look at America that accentuates all the predictable stereotypes. Having said all that, it is easy to understand how Fort Worth must seem an empty place to him. Fort Worth is what it is, and it aint Paree. That's for sure. Is it hip and cool? No, it is not. Never has been and probably never will be. That doesn't stop it from being a pretty nice city, certainly one of the nicest in this very unhip and uncool part of the country.

[DrkLts]

I think FW is cool.

From what I understand "trying" to be cool is NOT cool. That's what I've been told. No one likes fakes.

The fact FW isn't trying to be cool, IS WHAT MAKES IT COOL

[ochona]

what i like about fort worth is that you can see a caravaggio and a cattle show all in the same zip code and without a trace of irony. that's what i miss about fort worth.

here in austin it's all about irony. as in, hey honey, isn't it ironic that our house is an old freedman's cabin built on tree stumps yet it's $450K? as in, hey, look, there's a BOOT store near downtown, let's get a pair of goat ropers and wear them with our trucker hat and our old cardigan. as in, hey, let's wait in line for 45 minutes to have bored waiters forget we ordered half-baked pancakes.

irony and cool are somehow related, but being neither ironic nor cool i can't really say how or why.

[AndyN]

We need to be more unique, just like everyone else.

I think you can be western and still be chic. I think some of you miss the point with the Cowtown moniker.

[youngalum]

I was watching House Hunters last night on HGTV--yes I know. Anyway, they had a Fort Worth show and it was rather nice houses, in fact the house the couple bought is just down the street from my house.

But what I didn't like was the damn silly country music that they played in the background--it was the the 70's type of music and that image drives me nuts.

Fort Worth will never be cool until the image of slow, dumb country bumpkins image is gone from the mind set of outsiders.

[safly]

Mcuh to the defense of HGTV and others alike. They often play those twangy "Urban Cowboy" tunes with ANY Texas themed show, and not just Cowtown.

Now with SA they usually bust out with the Mariachi or acoustic guitar tunes. It's typical type casting. For NYC and CHi-town it's a usuall upbeat tempo sound with lots of percusssion, little piano, little brass, and loads of car horns which somehow oddly honk the exact same way in every show.

Great unimaginative sound foleying and uninspirational editing.

[ashivone]

Great description of Austinites, Ochona. They are best exemplified by that paragon of annoying "coolness"--Matthew McConaughey.

[jefffwd]

I was watching House Hunters last night on HGTV--yes I know. Anyway, they had a Fort Worth show and it was rather nice houses, in fact the house the couple bought is just down the street from my house.

But what I didn't like was the damn silly country music that they played in the background--it was the the 70's type of music and that image drives me nuts.

Fort Worth will never be cool until the image of slow, dumb country bumpkins image is gone from the mind set of outsiders.

You're not alone... I saw it too. I wasn't offended by it. The houses were very nice. The family was nice looking and at least the house backed up to golf course and not a stable.

[safly]

MM, I cannot stand, especially during the Rose Bowl pre-game monologue. I wanted to "YACK my GUAC!"
In front of 13 million viewers! THAT is the best Texas and ABC could come up with!

He's done. And he does personify AUSTIN and his cult-like followers.

"The Older I Get ... ", the moe I wanna swing a 2x4 up in his "GRILL".

[vjackson]

Great description of Austinites, Ochona. They are best exemplified by that paragon of annoying "coolness"--Matthew McConaughey.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Austin, the city has my respect. Granted I've only been there twice, but one thing the city has done is made itself attractive to young people. My younger brother attended college in Houston and every friend of his that went to UT decided to make Austin home. The firm were I work has strong ties with UT and every summer we have a couple of kids from Dallas working in the office over summer break. Every one of them planned on staying in Austin. I don't know if it's the funkiness, the nightlife, lakes or what, but kids love that city. It didn't suprise me one bit that Real World shot a season there. FW should take notice. Didn't the FW Weekly do a story a year or so ago saying FW was losing its young, creative. college-educated, artistic crowd to other cities?? I've said this since I've been in the area...there's a whole demographic that FW is ignoring....and that's not cool.

[youngalum]

Jefffwd, the golf course is the mens course at Ridglea Country Club.
---

Vjackson, there was an article in Fort Worth Weekly that did say that Ft. Worth was losing its young, creative. college-educated, artistic crowd to other cities. IMHO, it has majority to do with the low wages that Fort Worth pays to comparable cities its size.

Those audiences leave, as do the performers, after the ceiling level for mid-range jobs caps at $45-50K and other cities it is $10-20k more. Again that is my perception and why I commute to Dallas for the last 3 years for a job that pays more $ b/c Fort Worth/Tarrant County low pay scale.

[vjackson]

Your're right about that. But what about the "funky, artsy" scene?? FW touts itself as being an art town, but I suppose it only focuses on "high" art. Remember, it was the cool, funky arts scene, that got the SXSW festival started in Austin. It was that scene that started the Seattle grundge explosion as well and put Deep Ellum in the national spotlight in the 90's when The New Bohemians and other groups came out of Dallas. It's the scene that has hip/hop exploding out of Houston and Atlanta. It's been over ten years since grundge, but Seattle is still regarded as a cool city.....the stigma lasts.

[austlar]

Great description of Austinites, Ochona. They are best exemplified by that paragon of annoying "coolness"--Matthew McConaughey.

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Austin, the city has my respect. Granted I've only been there twice, but one thing the city has done is made itself attractive to young people. My younger brother attended college in Houston and every friend of his that went to UT decided to make Austin home. The firm were I work has strong ties with UT and every summer we have a couple of kids from Dallas working in the office over summer break. Every one of them planned on staying in Austin. I don't know if it's the funkiness, the nightlife, lakes or what, but kids love that city. It didn't suprise me one bit that Real World shot a season there. FW should take notice. Didn't the FW Weekly do a story a year or so ago saying FW was losing its young, creative. college-educated, artistic crowd to other cities?? I've said this since I've been in the area...there's a whole demographic that FW is ignoring....and that's not cool.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. When a city is attractive and attracts sophisticated, discerning, creative, and well educated young people, well, that city is by definition hip and cool. Trust me, it is about a whole lot more than having venues for rock and roll. It is about brains and money. It is about an atmosphere that encourages creativity and risk taking. It is about an atmosphere that encourages "weirdness". It is about an environment where art, music, and literature are created and consumed. It is about a place having a progressive political environment. Austin has all that going for it, or at least it has convinced most people that it has all that going for it.

[Dallastar]

To be honest, I can't answer the question whether Ft. Worth is cool or not. I believe cool is different things to different people. When most people think of New York or Chicago they think of a cool city, but I have met countless people that have said they both suck (not to me) but to each his own.

But now I will say in regards to the young professionals, I never hear of any saying they plan to live or relocate to Ft. Worth (I was a campus recruiter for 8 years). It was always Dallas, Austin, Houston and Atlanta.

I would always advise people that Ft. Worth was a place you need to visit first before making an assumption.

[DrkLts]

But now I will say in regards to the young professionals, I never hear of any saying they plan to live or relocate to Ft. Worth (I was a campus recruiter for 8 years). It was always Dallas, Austin, Houston and Atlanta.

I would always advise people that Ft. Worth was a place you need to visit first before making an assumption.

Well, we just added 37,000 people to our population last year. I'm sure a good deal of them HAD to of been young professionals that proclaimed at one point I PLAN on, or I'm RELOCATING to Fort Worth. I doubt all were retirees. This isn't Florida

[Dallastar]

But now I will say in regards to the young professionals, I never hear of any saying they plan to live or relocate to Ft. Worth (I was a campus recruiter for 8 years). It was always Dallas, Austin, Houston and Atlanta.

I would always advise people that Ft. Worth was a place you need to visit first before making an assumption.

Well, we just added 37,000 people to our population last year. I'm sure a good deal of them HAD to of been young professionals that proclaimed at one point I PLAN on, or I'm RELOCATING to Fort Worth. I doubt all were retirees. This isn't Florida

Hey I'm just "1" recruiter, I'm pretty sure they would tell others, they just never told me. However, most of the time if I'm recruiting out of state, when someone says they are relocating to Dallas, it could mean Dallas, Garland, Arlington, Ft. Worth, Plano anywhere in the metroplex they call it all Dallas for some reason.

[vjackson]

But now I will say in regards to the young professionals, I never hear of any saying they plan to live or relocate to Ft. Worth (I was a campus recruiter for 8 years). It was always Dallas, Austin, Houston and Atlanta.

I would always advise people that Ft. Worth was a place you need to visit first before making an assumption.

Well, we just added 37,000 people to our population last year. I'm sure a good deal of them HAD to of been young professionals that proclaimed at one point I PLAN on, or I'm RELOCATING to Fort Worth. I doubt all were retirees. This isn't Florida

You're probably right. But since cookie-cutter subdivisions are going up all over FW a lot quicker than downtown lofts and condos, I'm going to assume most of the 37,000 are probably families. I really don't know what the job market is in FW now. I do know that since my firm closed the FW office, I've kept in touch with three people around my age that were let go in FW. We're all between 25 and 32. One is commuting to Dallas, one is moving to Dallas...jobless, and one is still looking in the Dallas area, because in her words, there's nothing in FW. Although I know it's not true, lots of people tend to see FW as more blue collar. I think it's the lack of skyscrapers and the whole western thing.

[safly]

My assumptions about the FW professional youth are if they are from UT or Austin, or even Houston. Then they are more of the CONSERVATIVE type, and are not into that WEIRDNESS or COOLNESS that is waaaay beyond your typical "Texas Songwriter" appreciation crowd. For me Austin was always UT this or UT that, since my Pops was an alumn there. The family ALWAYS made it to a UT home football game (back when you could walk on the field and high 5 the players, or see them walk onto the field from beneath the bleachers), and a UT v AtM baseball aka GUSball game whenever in town. Oh, and the Conan's Pizza (YUM!) was ALWAYS a treat before headin back home. Taking pic's at the State Capitol was fun too. And of course we would always have to be reminded of when my father was walking back home from class one day and a certain Mr. Whitman had go off on a shooting spree atop the clock Tower. The ORIGINAL TOWER. Hee hee. And how Mother was flippin out because we didn't have cellphones back then, and she had to hear about this via radio, because the technology used to launch Yahoo News was still being invented by Al Gore who was headin out to VIETNAM with some Kodachrome in his hand.

Now during HS and some college years, when I would venture about with friends, that is when I discovered 6TH STREET and ALL that it entails. And when the Texas Songwriters scene sort of made that RESURGENCE in the mid 90's and gained some national momentum, AUSTIN was even cooler. But eventually you did just about everything there, and it was time to carry on. That is when I discoverd CALIFORNIA and the South Bay area. GOOODNIGHT!

It always seemed to never fail that after HS graduation, you would hear about so and so living or schooling in Austin would either get hooked on drugs, try cross dressin, got "x" amount of peircings in CERTAIN areas, come out of the closet, end up in prison, or make a local name for themselves. NEVER FAILED.

I guess if it is to be, it will be in AUSTIN.

I love Austin, GREAT times there. But personally, I am not sure I would want to live and die there.

[Yossarian]

I love Austin, GREAT times there. But personally, I am not sure I would want to live and die there.

Almost 100% agree. OTOH, I may be the ONLY Texan who actually dislikes Austin completely.

[Yossarian]

Didn't the FW Weekly do a story a year or so ago saying FW was losing its young, creative. college-educated, artistic crowd to other cities?? I've said this since I've been in the area...there's a whole demographic that FW is ignoring....and that's not cool.

It may not make FW cool, but whereas the 22-34 year old crowd is seeking their fortunes in the likes of Dallas, Austin Atlanta; the 40-50 year olds who did such 15 years ago are moving back with that fortune - and bringing a number of others in a similar position. I sympathize that such demographics are not likely to lead to a 6th street/Greenville avenue scene in Fort Worth anytime soon - but that wealth does translate into more jobs to service that wealth - the kind that does retain the 25-35 year old college educated crowd. You guys are right, FW has traditionally been "blue collar", but with what I just described combined with the wealth flowing out of the Barnett Shale, you WILL see FW start to look like something more in line with Houston - a "blue collar" city with a lot of "white collar" pay/amenities.

[jefffwd]

[quote name='vjackson' date='Mar 31 2006, 11:45 PM' post='24124']
[quote post='24121' date='Mar 31 2006, 10:53 PM' name='DrkLts']
You're probably right. But since cookie-cutter subdivisions are going up all over FW a lot quicker than downtown lofts and condos, I'm going to assume most of the 37,000 are probably families. I really don't know what the job market is in FW now. I do know that since my firm closed the FW office, I've kept in touch with three people around my age that were let go in FW. We're all between 25 and 32. One is commuting to Dallas, one is moving to Dallas...jobless, and one is still looking in the Dallas area, because in her words, there's nothing in FW. Although I know it's not true, lots of people tend to see FW as more blue collar. I think it's the lack of skyscrapers and the whole western thing.
[/quote]

v:
I, for one, think Fort Worth is very hip/cool. Unfortunately, I have been commuting to Las Colinas for about 17 years now. I can say from experience that things are changing job wise. Las Colinas Urban Center used to be thriving and now it is a ghost town. Chili's, Bennigan's, Frijole's, Humperdink's - gone, gone, gone, gone. Fidelity Investments moved out leaving two empty buildings - they landed in the Alliance area and last week I got to tour their campus. It is awesome. I think the tables are turning as far as employment goes... between Alliance, Downtown and the Hulen area FW is becoming a more attractive work environment. Also, I have a lot of friends in Dallas and spend a good deal of time over there in restaurants and bars. My friends also like to come over to FW and have fun! Despite not having as many skyscrapers, I don't think FW is viewed as blue collar. My Dallas friends are first to admit that FW has far superior museums, a bigger, better zoo (at least our go-rillas don't get out ) If it wasn't for Fort Worth "sharing" our Ballet company with Dallas you wouldn't have one. Dallas is a national laughing stock when it comes to the school board and city council. The other day Russ Martin (105.3) made the comment that you never see the FW city council bickering on TV like you do in Dallas. Why is that? Also, the Wall Street Journal reported this year that the only people you encounter on the street in downtown Dallas on the weekends are begging you for money. That said, I do like Dallas. Dallas is Dallas and Fort Worth is Fort Worth. Together we are one big dysfunctional family like it or not. Now... if you will excuse me I am off to take my redneck, blue collar a$$ to Home Depot to get some supplies to work in my hip/cool yard. Git-R-Done!

[vjackson]

^^^
I never said FW wasn't fun. I enoy coming to FW too. One of the reasons being it's so different from Dallas. I constantly push friends and coworkers in Dallas to do a weekend getaway to FW instead of Austin, SA or Houston. I'm so glad I don't have the biases that alot of you do, even though some on this forum think I'm hard on FW. As I said before, I really don't favor either city, see my posts on the Dallas forum. I really do hope the job market is getting better in FW. It was lousy when I was there,and I can only go by what my experiences have been, and from what I've seen. I'm no expert on the DFW economy nor do I pretend to be. It's been MY experience in the seven years I've been in DFW that I have heard over and over again, FW pays lower wages & I experienced that myself, and know people experiencing it now. You might have heard different, chances are we don't know the same people. And that Fidelity campus is awesome. And I love the FW zoo, never been to the Dallas one. I'm not into ballet, so I know nothing about sharing companies...and I listened to Russ Martin a few times and found him incredibly boring (but he is right about city hall)...I have Sirrius radio now and luckily I don't have to listen to his redneck/Howard Stern impersonation, along with his crew's forced laughter. I only go through Las Colinas on my way to the airport or Southlake, but there's been new office space and campusus out there almost everytime I've passed through. And didn't I read once there was more office space in LC than in DTFW?

[safly]

And didn't I read once there was more office space in LC than in DTFW?

That sounds about right. But Mr. ReddddNeck, for every ballet company that Dallas has to "BORROW" (as if this so called "Fort Worth" ballet company is COMPLAINING about getting work in Dallas), Dallas symphony will play right alongside a YoYoMa CaChing and expo$$$ure. And Mr. (But Where's Simon at?) Art Garfunkel plays there too and then takes his horrendous act to Bass hall, all while putting on a FAKE dissing act at how pretentious his Dallas show was and how WEIRD Austin is. GAG!

Oh, and Dallas Symphony also gets to travel to Europe and bring EVEN MORE exposure to their city. Where's the enviable FWSOrchestra during those times? Probably SWEATING away in one of their Concerts in the Garden errr Bushes Tour. Swatting moths and skeeters like it was in their job description.

Did I mention that Aaron (love to rub my coco-buttahhh lotion) Neville will be in da house at the Meyerson too, alongside the DSO.
And I believe he is singing duet with the forever beautiful and talented Linda Ronstadt. Hmmm. Seems like SOMEBODY has been reading my post rants from last year. But then again, "I Don't Knoooow Much".
Oh an then they will also play the Hispanic Festival Concert with TCUhhh's very own German Gutierrez. Looks like he ain't too proud to cross city lines these days. Work is work, AND DALLAS PAYS.

And if you read today's StarLESS Telegram about Olga (From Russia Vit Love) Kern's AMAZING performance last night, you can rest assure that they ONCE AGAIN dropped the ball when FAILING to NOT mention how AMAZING the FWSymphony played throughout the program with a handful of solos to accompany her piano play, and how they kept on playing through TWO ENCORES to satisfy the Van Cliburn misty eyed crowd.

FORRRR SHAME!

So if FW REALLY is cool and hip, even in it's own little "Just West of Weird or Expensive" kinda way, it wouldn't hurt to let the WORLD know about it.

This is The SAFLY with KRANT 93.7 FM. Signing off!

[vjackson]

[
Oh, and Dallas Symphony also gets to travel to Europe and bring EVEN MORE exposure to their city. Where's the enviable FWSOrchestra during those times? Probably SWEATING away in one of their Concerts in the Garden errr Bushes Tour. Swatting moths and skeeters like it was in their job description.

SAFLY, you're "out there" at times, but sometimes you say the most funny things. That comment had me laughing for ten minutes. I had to come in for a few hours this morning, thanks for giving me a laugh. I'm looking at the Meyerson now from Fountain Place. It's a shame, architecturally I love it, but I've never been in the place.

[jefffwd]

[
Oh, and Dallas Symphony also gets to travel to Europe and bring EVEN MORE exposure to their city. Where's the enviable FWSOrchestra during those times? Probably SWEATING away in one of their Concerts in the Garden errr Bushes Tour. Swatting moths and skeeters like it was in their job description.

SAFLY, you're "out there" at times, but sometimes you say the most funny things. That comment had me laughing for ten minutes. I had to come in for a few hours this morning, thanks for giving me a laugh. I'm looking at the Meyerson now from Fountain Place. It's a shame, architecturally I love it, but I've never been in the place.

v:
I agree about Sirius. I have it in the casa and the car. L-O-V-E it! Dallas/Fort Worth is the 5th largest radio market in the nation and yet there is so little to choose from. Thanks Clear Channel & CBS
What presets do you have? I only have set one programmed so far but mine are:
The Pulse (90s & Now)
Alt Nation! (Alternative)
First Wave (Classic Alternative)
Boombox (Breakbeats)
The Beat (Dance)
The Strobe (Disco & Classic Dance)

[mosteijn]

I don't know if it's a sign of Fort Worth's growing "hipness," but has anyone noticed the amount of big name rock groups playing at the Ridglea? Switchfoot just played last week, and so far for April they've got Alkaline Trio, Taproot and Evans Blue lined up to play. Maybe most of you haven't heard of them, but they're pretty big in Alternative music.

Also, I think Fort Worth shouldn't shy away from trying to get high paying companies to relocate to areas outside of downtown. Companies headquartered in Alliance or Cityview would do a lot more for Fort Worth than companies headquartered in Frisco, and no matter how much we like urbanity and downtown, some companies will want be in a suburban location for cost-effectiveness. I'd love to see more high-salary employees downtown, but more than that, I'd like to see more high-paying jobs in Fort Worth period.

[safly]

And like we've alllllll been saying here on the FORUM. Johnny, when you are unanimously voted in as an elected official or asked to become City Manager (better job) one day here in FW, then and only then can we rest assure that those wishes will truly become reality.

Picked a college yet?

[ochona]

1. Chicago doesn't suck...per se...but it sure is cold. I lived there for two years and that was enough.
2. Popular cities become popular organically, for the most part, and the best that city governments can do to aid the "popularity" process is to not get in the way nor to taint popularity with official sanction. Nobody except the convention bureau calls Austin the "live music capital of the world" because, for one thing, it isn't. Except during SXSW.
3. Cities like Chicago and New York and San Francisco have certain characteristics which Fort Worth doesn't have (as much as I love FW).
3a. For one, they are dense/anonymous enough where people sense that they can do their own thing. This means that the cross-dresser and the guy with horns implanted in his head can live in peace and harmony. If you don't like the cross-dresser and the guy with horns implanted in his head you walk on by.
3b. Second, they have organically multi-use neighborhoods which are the result of pre-zoning development and/or are not lorded over by paranoid neighborhood associations. Or, like Houston, they just don't have zoning period. Cities do not develop organically into single-use areas like our suburbs and most of today's Fort Worth. People like to live near where they work and work near where they play and play near where they eat. And eat near where they live. In my old neighborhood in Chicago (the Loop) I could walk to work, walk to the grocery store, walk to the department store, walk to federal prison, and walk to a five-star restaurant all in less than five minutes. (The federal prison was architecturally awesome from the outside...never been inside!) Downtown Fort Worth is kinda there, but even so...didn't they close down Courthouse Market?
3c. Lastly, there is...an air of opportunity, I guess, a sense that you can buy an old house in a crappy neighborhood for $25,000, check out of society, invent a new form of art, share it with others like you, and then go shopping at Prada when you sell out. Wait...Fort Worth HAS $25,000 houses! Why aren't people flocking there?

[ochona]

Also: if people sense that they can let loose in a place, they will, which will give more people the sense that they can let loose...the creativity cycle, I guess. Someone has to start the cycle, sure, but once it starts going it rarely stops even though it might lose fashion for a while. And the cycle is profitable. 10,000 people were official participants in SXSW -- probably 25,000 to 50,000 people came for the week. They estimated that the week was worth $225M to the Austin economy, which makes businesses all too willing to accommodate all the black cardigans and ironic t-shirts.

Of course, Fort Worth can't just copy somewhere else...and it has to play off what is unique about it. And that's a formula no urban-planning scientist can concoct in his urban-planning laboratory...

[safly]

Yah. That Fed prison near THE LOOP is pretty cool. Monster!

I like the view of it from The Sears Tower. You can see them on the rooftop shootin some hoop. That thing has to be about 50 flights up there.



Here we go,



" BIG bounce pass for Jones under the rim. Wait!! The ball gets away, and over the walllllll."

Can you imagine a basketball falling from the courts and landing on the pavement down below?

"That's another life sentence, Jones."

[cjyoung]

Also: if people sense that they can let loose in a place, they will, which will give more people the sense that they can let loose...the creativity cycle, I guess. Someone has to start the cycle, sure, but once it starts going it rarely stops even though it might lose fashion for a while. And the cycle is profitable. 10,000 people were official participants in SXSW -- probably 25,000 to 50,000 people came for the week. They estimated that the week was worth $225M to the Austin economy, which makes businesses all too willing to accommodate all the black cardigans and ironic t-shirts.

Of course, Fort Worth can't just copy somewhere else...and it has to play off what is unique about it. And that's a formula no urban-planning scientist can concoct in his urban-planning laboratory...

Austin has become stereotypically alternative. You can see the same stuff in Portland and Seattle with better scenery.

I would like to take a few things from Austin such as SXSW-like festival (with less of a focus on everyone being "alternative"), a Wheatsville Co-op in every 'hood , and a 50,000 student, oil-rich university downtown.

[vjackson]

^^^^^
I don't know if you've ever been to SXSW, but the vast majority of the people are not alternative at all. They look like your average 20 somethings. What I do like about the festival is the musical acts are becoming more diverse as is the crowds. And as far as "with less of a focus on everyone being alternative"...FW desparately needs some alternative people with alternative ideas to give some alterntatives to a city that has few alternatives.

[austlar]

^^^^^
I don't know if you've ever been to SXSW, but the vast majority of the people are not alternative at all. They look like your average 20 somethings. What I do like about the festival is the musical acts are becoming more diverse as is the crowds. And as far as "with less of a focus on everyone being alternative"...FW desparately needs some alternative people with alternative ideas to give some alterntatives to a city that has few alternatives.

Well said! If that ever happens, FW will begin to be hip and cool.

[Fort Worthology]

Don't understand the obsession with hip & cool personally; after all, hip & cool is in the eye of the beholder. I don't consider Austin to be particularly hip or cool, myself. More "irritating" than either of the other choices.

I think Fort Worth is cool - to me, anyway. Of course, I've never been cool in the popular culture sense, and probably never will be, but that's the way I look at it. Today's pop culture and a lot of today's "alternative" culture is awful, IMHO, so I'm in no rush to follow either crowd.

[vjackson]

^^^^^^^
You're totally correct, cool/hip is in the eye of the beholder. But I think what most mean by cool/hip is a city that allows different ideas, lifestyles and forms of expression, which is what I mostly mean when I say alternative. When a city embraces alterntive ideas it tends to show in restuarants, shopping, music/nightlife, art, and architecture. But I guess if you live in a city that is so afraid of anything different you wouldn't know that. If FW had such forms of thinking, you might see more unique shopping options, more diverse entertainment performing there, and more imaginative architecuture. Maybe architects would be willing to actually build something different in FW if they thought the city was open to it. There wouldn't be a strip mall behind Montomery Plaza, Radioshack wouldn't have built a safe, sterile, surburban campus, maybe the skyline's few skycrapers, wouldn't all look like upright shoeboxes and maybe retailers would stop skipping over FW and going to "hipper" surburbs. Embracing pop culture and embracing alternative ideas are by far not the same thing. So my idea of alternative has little to do with mohawks, tatoos, and punk music, it has to do with ideas. No one's asking you or FW to follow any crowd, but it is time to let some new ideas start to flow. After all, how many more new "urban" centers anchored by a Supertarget does FW need?

[youngalum]

What a good post.

What we need is a Knox/Henderson area in Fort Worth. Good resturants, clubs and diverse shopping from Z Gallerie to the Apple Store--neither of which will be in Fort Worth for the foreseeable future.

[Yossarian]

What we need is a Knox/Henderson area in Fort Worth. Good resturants, clubs and diverse shopping from Z Gallerie to the Apple Store--neither of which will be in Fort Worth for the foreseeable future.

That is what was proposed by the group that bought up all the space along CB in Ridgelea. Except they were primarily under-capitalized and managed to run Staubach Co. off before the thing could launch. Instead, they spent too much on for the most part "putting lip-stick on the proverbial pig".

[vjackson]

What a good post.

What we need is a Knox/Henderson area in Fort Worth. Good resturants, clubs and diverse shopping from Z Gallerie to the Apple Store--neither of which will be in Fort Worth for the foreseeable future.

Apple is opening a new Tarrant Co. store this weekend.....in SOUTHLAKE!!!!

[SurplusPopulation]

EXCUSE ME!!! A MOMENT OF CLARITY IS NEEDED!

How does Fort Worth prevent new ideas and 'alternative' thinking? What is it our city and we as a population are doing to prevent people living 'alternative' lifestyles and running 'alternative' businesses from moving here? Are we meeting people at the city limit sign and telling them to turn themselves right back around?

And this has bothered me for a long time on this site... what are some of you so anxious to see an 'alternative' to? I think some of you need to see if you are as open to other's ideas and desires as you claim to be. It is a two-way street. I find it very offensive that the extremely pleasant life that most Fort Worth residents seem to cherish (and I am making that judgement based on the vast majority of people I have know in my 27 years in this city as well as the waves of newcomers who seem to be falling in love with what this city offers enough to make us one of the fastest growing in the country), I find it offensive that the city WE have created would be attacked for being too laid back, conservative, and dare I say it... Christian, white-bread. GASP!! (maybe there's some good reasons we don't support as many bars and nightclubs as Dallas and Austin)

If you don't like what we currently offer or how most of us seem to live, open something different and I wish you all the luck. But if your establishment fails due to lack of traffic, it is your fault for picking a poor location and not this city's fault for close-mindedness.

Does this limit the amount or kind of unbridled building growth and development. Probably. So what? There is a reason that Fort Worth is considered a nice place to live and raise a family. Because most us find it a nice place to live and raise our families.

AND AT THE END OF THE DAY...

...most folks living out in what you consider the disposable parts of this city only view downtown, as wonderful as it may be, as the place where we go to pretend we're in a big city. The rest of the time we don't want the 'hassles' that are associated with big cities. We may want to look sorta metropolitan, but we're small town people at heart.

[Fort Worthology]

EXCUSE ME!!! A MOMENT OF CLARITY IS NEEDED!

How does Fort Worth prevent new ideas and 'alternative' thinking? <snip>

Well, my responses were unneeded. I agree.

[Fort Worthology]

When a city embraces alterntive ideas it tends to show in restuarants, shopping, music/nightlife, art, and architecture. But I guess if you live in a city that is so afraid of anything different you wouldn't know that.

See, this sort of thing is why you get all the "anti-Fort Worth" flames, even when you're not the only one saying what you're saying, and even when you've got a good point (and you very often do). What you've basically said (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is:

"You don't understand, and you CAN'T understand, because you're from Fort Worth."

People can be rubbed the wrong way by that, and I can't say I blame 'em.

I understand what you mean, and I'm not some sheltered shut-in who cowers behind my Fort Worth blinders whenever some new idea passes by. This isn't the oppressive groupthink hellhole that some are insinuating it is.

[vjackson]

Then most of FW must think like the two of you. By proclaiming yourself to be a conservative, smalltown, christian and "white" bread city what does that say to people who are none of those things? I"m sure there are no people in Austin that match this description or Seattle, or New York. And as history has taught us, this "demographic" you described has been the most resistant to change, especially by people like me, who do not call themselves christians (for reasons I won't go into, but seem blantantly obvious) and who are not "white"....bread. This sounds like something from the 1950's, "let's not let FW change, because we don't like it. And if we don't like it, we're not going to let those that do have it." If you don't like bars, don't go, if you don't like certain restuarants, don't eat there, if you don't like certain kinds of people in certain kind of neighborhoods, don't visit there. But don't keep the rest of the fine citizens of FW from enjoying diversity and change as it grows just because you don't.

[vjackson]

When a city embraces alterntive ideas it tends to show in restuarants, shopping, music/nightlife, art, and architecture. But I guess if you live in a city that is so afraid of anything different you wouldn't know that.

See, this sort of thing is why you get all the "anti-Fort Worth" flames, even when you're not the only one saying what you're saying, and even when you've got a good point (and you very often do). What you've basically said (and correct me if I'm wrong here) is:

"You don't understand, and you CAN'T understand, because you're from Fort Worth."

People can be rubbed the wrong way by that, and I can't say I blame 'em.

I understand what you mean, and I'm not some sheltered shut-in who cowers behind my Fort Worth blinders whenever some new idea passes by. This isn't the oppressive groupthink hellhole that some are insinuating it is.

Sorry, AG, that was sooo not the way I intended that to to sound. I could have worded that better. My apologies.

[Fort Worthology]

Sorry, AG, that was sooo not the way I intended that to to sound. I could have worded that better. My apologies.

I'd written some rather harsh things too, since deleted. I think we're all getting our wires crossed here.

I don't hate diversity and change. I also don't hate Fort Worth the way it is, and I don't think we're stopping any new ideas from coming through. I think the problem isn't that Fort Worth hates change and new ideas, but that we're just not as well-known as places like Dallas and Austin. Everybody knows Dallas from TV, and everybody knows Austin as at least the capitol. We just don't draw the attention of the alternatives as much - I don't think it's that we act as though we don't want them here. Promotion is a whole other thread, I guess.

Alternative ideas and thoughts are here - it just takes time for the word to spread. Nobody would have thought Fort Worth could support a vegan diner, but it's flourishing. Give it time.

[ochona]

Small-town doesn't necessarily mean small-minded.

But I would suggest that the modern suburb is neither small nor town, whereas a large city can contain hundreds of true urban villages where people really do know each other when they go to the corner grocery store, where people live near the parents of their kids' friends, where kids can walk out the door unattended and go play with their friends without Mom organizing a play date because there are multiple sets of eyes on the street. E.B. White once said that many New Yorkers spend their whole lives in areas smaller in size than a country village.

This kind of development both embraces change and embraces what is and always has been good in life. I have too many good memories of living in Andersonville in Chicago to come back to a place where I have to get in my car and drive ten miles to go to Chili's and I have no idea who lives in the McMansion next door.

[SurplusPopulation]

Vjack, how did you not READ my post? I in no way said that other points of view should be unwelcome or shunned. I said that the majority of people in this city seem to trend one direction as opposed to another so the make of the city reflects that. I also said that if 'alternative' businesses try to launch in FtW, I wish them luck, or did you just overlook me saying those things in order to brand me with the cliche 'simple, narrow-minded' label.

To claim that the demographic I have described is most reluctant to change is a damaging, although widely accepted and promoted stereotype. Frankly if that demo would make the same charge as you about a different demo it would be labeled hateful and discriminatory. Should I remind you that I might feel out of place in San Francisco, Berkley, or any number of other cities. I would have three options if I lived there: get over it because I would be in the vast minority; move to cities that catered more to how I wished to live; or what I suggested to you, I could start trying to make the changes myself instead of always complaining that it was not be handed to me on a silver platter. The problem I would face with option 3 in San Fran is the same that you may face here... you can't force people to go where they don't want to go.

As far as the urban village thing: I totally see your point. But hundreds of thousands of people want a big yard surrounding their McMansion, a long driveway to park their SUVs and boats in, and more than enough elbow room between them and all the people they may not care to be surrounded by after working all day. Until everybody changes their minds about what they consider ideal, this world will be made up of cities of all types that cater to each and every point of view. Besides, realistically it would be decades before FtW has the density to even consider comparing it to a Chicago-style urban setting. Its not realistic. We must do the best with what we have.

Again, this time in slow-motion...

WHAT IS FORT WORTH OR ITS CITIZENRY DOING TO PREVENT THE SPREAD OF ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLES OR BUSINESSES IN OUR CITY? MAYBE WE DON'T LIKE BARS AS MUCH AS OTHER CITIES AND THATS WHY WE DON'T HAVE AS MANY. MAYBE ITS BECAUSE WE HAVE A HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF THAT 'EVIL' DEMOGRAPHIC THAN OTHER PLACES AND SO THIS CITY CATERS TO THE LIFESTYLE WE PREFER.

VERY, VERY SIMPLE.

P.S. - Please note that it has not been me at any point in this discussion talking down one group or another, just the attacks on our city. Vjack you are the one who feels it necessary to look down your nose at another group as evidenced by your claim that we are the most resistant to change. On some issues in history, you are correct. On many, many others you are dead wrong. And please keep in mind how close-minded your utopias-of-diversity are when faced with people from my demographic.

[ramjet]

Philadelphia has done a great job over the last several years of marketing itself as a attractive living/working and tourist destination for creative and diverse populations. And it has been wildly successful - especially attracting folks from NYC and Boston (both of which have become inaccessible boutique cities for extremely rich caucasions - hmm, reminds one of North Dallas). Philadelphia's progressive vision came from the city fathers and business leaders. Perhaps we could start a movement to get Mike Moncreif, the Bass family, and a few of FW's corporate big guys to invest in an international campaign to market FW's virtues to diverse populations - virtues including inexpensive housing, a sophisticated arts scene, a Baker Street Pub and Dueling Piano Bar (shout out to you, vjackson) and lots of great people who are excited about their favorite city's future. So how 'bout it Mayor Mike - let's start by utilizing all those new hotels on the horizon and go for the Democratic National Convention in '08, the International Gay Games in '10, and for diversity and balance, the Southern Baptist Convention in '11 and George W. Bush's 70th birthday gala featuring the comedy of Ron Silver in '12....