34 replies to this topic

[EricTCU]

I just can't buy into the idea of a significant Yuppie Market in DTFW! The empty-nester market, sure, but young urban professionals buying property in DTFW? Here's why I don't buy it.

1. Anybody driven through So7, it's full of Cadillac Sevilles, Lexus LS's. Where are the 3-series BMW and G35 Infinity Coupes that we Yuppies drive?

2. Why did all of my buddies with TCU Neeley business degrees get the heck out of FW after graduation? Unless you call sitting in a call center at RadioShack at 9:45 PM "corporate fast-tracking". All of the good entry level jobs are 30 miles East (Big Accounting, Big Consulting, Big Finance, Big Tech).

3. Why buy downtown in a market that is still projected and preliminary when you can rent at almost every development for less? After all, yuppies won't stay yuppies forever, eventually we will have kids, move to Southlake and start fights at youth soccer games. Why risk our money in an unproven urban residential market that we know we are leaving in 10 years or so?

4. Considering commute time and market risk, City View, the cultural district, or medical district are just as appealing as the CBD. Actually, unless you want to get shot, nix the medical district.

I think buyers market downtown is 95% empty-nester. While the renting market is 95% Yuppies.

I asked a lot of questions here, so let's discuss!

[EricTCU]

Well of course the greatness of the pickup spans all market segments. I don't mean to limit yuppies to only driving sport-sedans and coupes, but rather just trying to be point out a stereotypical observation without malevolent intent.

I am sticking with the textbook 3-part definition of a yuppie:

1. Young - 20 to 30 something
2. Urban - Residing and working in a metropolitan city
3. Professional - Having a successful career which supports an affluent lifestyle

Of course there are those professionals in their 40's or 50's while still not old, they don't fit the definition. In fact, maybe we should consider a third market segment?

1. Empty Nesters
2. Yuppies
3. Muppies (Middle-aged Urban Professionals)

While I haven't jumped on any vehicles in the Tower parking garage... yet... I think your description of the vehicles parked there would likely fit the Muppie market. Perhaps the yuppie market so often referenced in the forum is in reality a muppie demographic??

[Urbndwlr]

Eric,

The market segment to which you refer (20s-30s, upwardly mobile, relatively "urban" mentality) certainly does exist here, and empirical evidence suggests that this crowd is in greater supply than at any other time in the city's history. Why? With the presence of an urban (i.e. walkable, somewhat dense, active) district (Downtown), we are seeing the emergence of a group that previously was reluctant to move to Fort Worth.

Don't think of this segment as an absolute "they are or they are not urban-types", but rather as a spectrum of people with quasi-to-very urban attitudes, tastes, standards. The first members (lowest hanging fruit of the market segment if you will) of this market segment appears to be composed primarily of:
A) Fort Worth natives who move back home after years of living in larger more dense cities (you know there are a ton of these people)
B) People who have a reason to move here (job opportunity or spouse wants to move b/c of family, friends, or job opportunity)
Both of these segments really WANT to find this type of inviting, social, stimulating, diverse, active district here in Fort Worth. Even if they don't actually see it in place, the news that such a district's creation is imminent (as in the one along W 7th Street) is often sufficient to get them excited enough to move in.

With the emergence of new civic amenities such as world-class art museums, a fantastic theatre, good opportunities for outdoor activities (trails for running and cycling, kayak course on Trinity), plus plans for more pedestrian-friendly, medium density districts which are more welcoming to newcomers than auto-oriented suburban-style districts --- all these elements make our city far more attractive to all of those people who very quietly consider Fort Worth each year as the place to which they will move, and where they will start their new business or take their new job.

Its not uncommon for Fort Worthians to not notice these people - they don't usually announce the fact that they are in town either explicitly or secretly considering the town.

And, BTW, to declare that there are absolutely no good starting jobs here is simply false. Sure, some other cities will have a greater number of them at any given time, however it is false to declare that nothing exists here.

[Urbndwlr]

Your observation that So7 appears to be populated mostly with empty nesters is correct. The units are designed and priced in such a way that they appeal more to Baby Boomers than to Gen X or Y'ers. (I think they're priced around $500-600,000 - out of range for most younger people).

[safly]

And that brings up an interesting debate URBNDWLR. Does the attraction for Muppies or Empty Nesters in the urban FW housing market, carelessly diminish the overall progressive social night scene that the urban FW scope has been accustomed to providing over the past 5 or so years? Are Muppies and EN's proving to be a viable clientele for these businesses or are they not?

Will there be a direct correlation between the So7/ TOWER residential market (age/appeal wise) and the surrounding entertainment businesses (bars, restaurants, clubs)?

"Talk amongst yourselves." - Linda Richman, COFFEE TALK


BTW David. The 30's and 40's generation are aptly named the "Generation John Hughes", or " MTV Generation", or " Generation Microwave", or "Generation Fast Times", even the "Generation Brat Pack" .

[cberen1]

"All of the good entry level jobs are 30 miles East"

What a load...

Every year I have several good open finance positions that I can't fill locally because there aren't enough TCU kids with their heads screwed on straight. It's not a money issue, it's a talent issue. I go to Austin, College Station and Norman and have a lot better luck than I do at TCU.

In the interests of full disclosure: I have one degree from TCU. I have hired a couple of kids from TCU who haved done a fine job. It's not a bad school. It's a solid, second-tier, business school. I still stay in contact with some of the faculty and I like and respect them.

My point is simply that just because your TCU friends didn't find or didn't take great FW jobs doesn't mean that the jobs aren't there. Hell, I've got open positions right now.

[Brian Luenser]

I just can't buy into the idea of a significant Yuppie Market in DTFW! The empty-nester market, sure, but young urban professionals buying property in DTFW? Here's why I don't buy it.

1. Anybody driven through So7, it's full of Cadillac Sevilles, Lexus LS's. Where are the 3-series BMW and G35 Infinity Coupes that we Yuppies drive?

2. Why did all of my buddies with TCU Neeley business degrees get the heck out of FW after graduation? Unless you call sitting in a call center at RadioShack at 9:45 PM "corporate fast-tracking". All of the good entry level jobs are 30 miles East (Big Accounting, Big Consulting, Big Finance, Big Tech).

3. Why buy downtown in a market that is still projected and preliminary when you can rent at almost every development for less? After all, yuppies won't stay yuppies forever, eventually we will have kids, move to Southlake and start fights at youth soccer games. Why risk our money in an unproven urban residential market that we know we are leaving in 10 years or so?

4. Considering commute time and market risk, City View, the cultural district, or medical district are just as appealing as the CBD. Actually, unless you want to get shot, nix the medical district.

I think buyers market downtown is 95% empty-nester. While the renting market is 95% Yuppies.

I asked a lot of questions here, so let's discuss!

Young people don't buy much property downtown, for obvious reasons. They cannot afford it.

That they are unwilling to buy into a "still projected and preliminary/ unproven" market is ridiculous. I have yet to find a 25 year old that wouldn't kill for my condo in the Tower. They universally want my condo much more than I do. They can't afford it. Period. Want it. Can't afford it. Most have blown what little money they have earned on cars. Many, at 25, are still living at home or in an apartment, trying to manage their credit card debt and auto insurance.

I do agree that it is primarily empty-nesters. That may be what I love best about living downtown... all the partying I need on the streets, and then go upstairs to my quiet, empty nest! Sweeeet.

[EricTCU]

Hey cberen, no doubt there are good entry level jobs here, but at least a majority of TCU professionals are finding jobs elsewhere, and I'm not just talking about my immediate friends. I'm not trying to knock the FW market, it's been great to me, but there is definitly a flight of grads.

David, after seeing your balcony view on your website, I would image you could record some pretty rediculous behavior pouring out of Sundance around 1:45 AM. What a cool pad.

Anyway, back to topic...

Urbndwlr brings up very good points. I was thinking So7 wasn't quite that high priced. Does anyone know if the yuppie/muppie market are biting on homes priced below $350k? i.e. Magnolia area projects, Neil P., Bluffs phase 1?

"previously reluctant to move to FW" is right on. I can definitly see the emergence of urban redevelopment in essence creating a yuppie market out of the mid-cities and greater FW young commuter crowd.

In conclusion I wish to modify my DTFW buyer market:

40% Empty Nesters
40% Muppie
20% Yuppie

It's like butta, I tell ya, butta! Talk amongst yourselves.

[EricTCU]

Young people don't buy much property downtown, for obvious reasons. They cannot afford it.

Agreed, but then again the Tower is the pinnacle of downtown living. What do you think the age breakdown will be for lower priced projects like the Bluff's? Obviously 25 year olds are not in the market to buy, but the 30 somethings are.

[EricTCU]

Also, can it be agreed that downtown renters are 95% yuppie as I originally proposed or is that market more mixed? What about the buyer age breakdown on the Fort Worth South projects?

[safly]

Also, can it be agreed that JTRoberts HAS TO "school" these new posting CATS that do not know how to edit their previous CONSECUTIVE postings, much like he did to me about year or so ago. LOL!

Sorry "E".

"Rhode Island. Neither a Road nor an Island. Talk amongst yourselves."

[safly]

Ahhhh hogwash.

Where does SA fit into this? Never been to Ann Arbor, but I am curious to how there inner urban residential structures are providing to that market segment of Yuppers.


Madtown! What?

[EricTCU]

"Yuppies are an asset to any market," says Jordan, "their buying power is already substantial and it's going to continue to grow for decades."

I do have threading rules yet to learn but at least I'm an asset to the market. I think I'm going to go downtown and flex my substancial liquid asset muscle at some local art dealers. What can I get for about a buck-fiddy??

Very good article! Although I think the 21 to 34 age range should be more like 24 to 40.

I'll be back in 10 minutes to add another consecutive post.

[safly]

to interject themselves into the community.

Interject. WAIT! You can't use that word, I already used that one this week. In perfect form too (a rare moment I might add). Geeez, Louisssse.

Well hogwah on all that edumacated brain shock stimulation civic stuff. We still got better BBQ and Mexican food over here than all of them combined.

Cowboy rushing stats? I didn't know they had a fraternity here.

They got a kegerator? WELL sign me up.

[safly]

I agree with the Burnet data. Like driving through that town, and ALWAYS good to see them in that cowgirl gear and drivin big ol trucks. Happy days!

I'm stayin away from ol Century Village!

I can't go on a date to SHONEY'S!

Winnetka is VERY accurate.

[RD Milhollin]

Gatesville, TX is home to a women's unit of the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. I wonder if the rest of the list is a little skewed in that direction? On the other hand there was this Seinfeld episode...

[safly]

What? The one about "Delores"?

[redhead]

I wonder how different that list would look if it were MSA's and not such small towns? I lived in the Research Triangle (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill) many years ago and they boasted the highest percentage of graduate degrees in the nation at that time. I wonder how the metroplex would measure up? I think that would be more meaningful than picking up skews like Gatesville...

[AndyN]

Yeah, it looked like a lot of the female percentage cities were retirement communities where the guys die first and a thoughtful first date gift would be a bottle of geritol.

Would it be too un-PC to point out that the lowest education cities seem to be mostly areas of heavy Mexican immigrant population?

[safly]

UN PC! Hey, it's Deuce Double-O to the 6 now. There ain't no PC PoPo anymore. PC was so 90's ago.

But your assessment is very accurate and there is substantial data to support that observation. More than what the list provided before us. Lack of higher education schools, lack of interurban studies(HS, MS, ES level, libraries, etc.), and a mainly cross migrated flow of highly low educated "working class" citizens, could all be quite apparent within those areas of interest. Also on the "percentage value" with lower educated towns, the higher educated population within those towns tend to leave the area in order to seek higher education or a better jobs market to utilize or further their education, so the balance falls into a "working class" non-white collar populus.

Perhaps that could explain or support further on your based observation.

Some data within that list that is "very alarming" to me is the data for the areas of: E. Los Angeles, Huntington Park, Bell, CA areas as well as the Galena Park, TX area. So why would such strong data reflecting highly populated lower educated people be so evident in such highly capable and widely available markets of educational opp't ? Interesting research or project for one to follow up on. Perhaps a dissertation in the works?

Is their evidence to support that a lower wage scale workforce is in high demand in those areas and HAS supported or is CONTINUING to support the notion that higher education is being put on the wayside in order to maintain a working class society that is essential for their regions economic VIABILITY. The concern is that even though the above mentioned cities in or near the Los Angeles County area(s) and the city near what I believe to be the Harris County area(s) , both areas of which accomodate and have adapted improved standards for higher education, are areas which show a substantial amount of lower educated population. It baffles me how one can live and perhaps work within minutes to UCLA, USC, RICE, U of Houston, or a Cal Poly for example, and NEVER benefit from that convenience of vicinity or have been made available the support to attain their goals in attending such high caliber schools.

Should these area UNIVERSITIES or COLLEGES really look into this data more closely, or should the CITY and SCHOOL DISTRICT OFFICIALS look into this data more closely? If, and or what can be done about this very intriguing data shown here.

Can't really say for now, maybe it's just me. Carry on.

BTW, Bell, Huntington Park, and E.Los Angeles should really be grouped together, as they are within a 5 minute vicinity to each other on the Eastern half of L.A. County. Commuted through those parts before, am not surprised to say the least.

..point out that the lowest education cities seem to be mostly areas of heavy Mexican immigrant population?

If by what you mean "MEXICAN", as in the migration flow from Mexico to the U.S. ? Or "MEXICAN" as in the nationality of these particular population of immigrants. Big difference, as the majority of people crossing the borders into the U.S. are people of other national origin. Very interesting discovery for many of people. Tells you a little bit about what is happening beyond Mexico's border too.

[Urbndwlr]

And that brings up an interesting debate URBNDWLR. Does the attraction for Muppies or Empty Nesters in the urban FW housing market, carelessly diminish the overall progressive social night scene that the urban FW scope has been accustomed to providing over the past 5 or so years? Are Muppies and EN's proving to be a viable clientele for these businesses or are they not?

Will there be a direct correlation between the So7/ TOWER residential market (age/appeal wise) and the surrounding entertainment businesses (bars, restaurants, clubs)?

"T .

I suspect that the demographic and phsychographic composition of the residents that live in and near Downtown will indeed affect the mix of entertainment outlets that exist. Still, many of the younger patrons of the gradually growing bar/music venues in/near Downtown will continue to travel from near and far to these venues. Many of them will likely live farther away (usually for practical reasons e.g., perhaps close to their suburban job, or they inherit a suburban house from grandma).

Over time there will be a mix of older and younger (primarily Baby Boom and Echo Boomers - as the later graduates from college) in these central city neighborhoods. I do think, though that as the central districts become more densely populated with residents (particularly the older ones with higher priced homes), it will be increasingly difficult for bar entrepreneurs to get the necessary clearances to open new bars near these homes (especially live music places). If the homes come first, chances are that it will be tough to do late-night entertainment in the immediate vicinity. Hopefully the warehouse districts will remain places for such louder joints.

[redhead]

psychographic??? oh, pleease. Few people really know what it is and fewer still use the real mccoy due to expense...spare me the garbola of the over-exposed, under-used pscho-babble that is modern day BS. Only companies of real substance can afford it, and even those cannot figure out how to properly implement its usage...unless your name is Buxton.

[EricTCU]

University Park & Highland Park rank so high on the list!

What if FW had independent towns within it. For example what if 76109 = University Park and 76107 = Highland Park.

Perhaps the percentages of those with college degrees would come close to matching that of the Park Cities?

Obviously 76109 and 76107 have areas of significatnly low property values and household income which the Park Cities lack, but I'm sure you get my drift. Maybe if you mapped out an area of equal size to the Mid-Cities over the high value areas 76107 and 76109, then the percentages would be similar??

Food for thought... or not

[JKC]

psychographic??? oh, pleease. Few people really know what it is and fewer still use the real mccoy due to expense...spare me the garbola of the over-exposed, under-used pscho-babble that is modern day BS. Only companies of real substance can afford it, and even those cannot figure out how to properly implement its usage...unless your name is Buxton.

How refreshing! Tired of expensive buzzwords I take it? You know fishing lures work the same way, the real trick is to figure out if the lures was designed to attract fish or fishermen.

[ashivone]

The basic assumption here I guess is that we only want yuppies to live downtown?

[safly]

There is no doubt IN MY MIND that the "yuppie" market is a viable and attractive market for DTFW, DTFW RE, and pretty much any other type of DT market. The concern here is will the DTFW business/entertainment venues market, gravitate, concentrate and adapt to that particular market? Thus tuning out (ignoring) other market elements and makeups.

Is DTFW an adaptive area of concentration that can provide for a spectrum of clientele? Or will it only gravitate and cater to a more "atrractive" clientele, all while ignoring others?

Yuppies come and go in any market. Any market.

[redhead]

Let's have a HUG A YUPPIE day!!! Of course yuppies are in every market. It's just that very few yuppies can afford DOWNTOWN real estate. Fairmount, sure, but not DT at over $200/foot...UNLESS, like the Tower, there are some really small square footages.

In the Tower, with his subsidies, he could manage the small square footages and still make the numbers work. But if you start from scratch, with the cost of DT land, it is difficult to make the numbers work. Small units become loss leaders to create momentum, and that is really the best you can hope for them. The money then has to be made, and made up, on the larger units to justify "burning" the land of the same value.

God love 'em, we were all Yuppies in our days...now the demographers talk about Moby's and Doby's...Momma older, Baby younger, or Daddy older, Baby younger...Can we say TROPHY WIVES for the latter category? Especially when Daddy has already put the first brood through college?!