35 replies to this topic

[Austin55]

This lot has been part of the Sundance masterplan for some time, but on Friday Ed bass revealed plans for what could come to the complete surface lot bounded by 4th, 5th, Throckmorton and Houston. To quote him from the Star Telegram article,

 

 

 

150-room boutique hotel and room for about 500 parking spaces at what is now a parking lot at the southwest corner of Fourth and Houston streets

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

 

 

Though these renders are fairly outdated at this point, they show what appears to be a fairly large building in this lot,  rather fitting as squeezing the amount of numbers into a 200x200 foot space would probably require a fair bit of verticality. 

 

For comparison, the Chase Bank building, which appears to be about the same size based on this rendering, is 195 feet tall, and it's garage contains 750 spaces. 

At this point, I don't really know if there is any more information about this project. I'm certainly interested in seeing when this could start up, if Schwarz will be the architect and if he will stick with his usual style, and what sort of branding the hotel may have. 

[John T Roberts]

I have heard that it won't be too far away.  Schwarz will be the architect and I'm almost 100% sure that it will resemble all of the other Sundance buildings.  Other than those vague things, I really don't know much, and I have seen that block being developed from the Master Plan for several years.  The Bass Family purchased the old Monnig's Department Store building in 1990 and demolished it in 1991. Monnig's was located on that block.

[Jeriat]

This lot has been part of the Sundance masterplan for some time, but on Friday Ed bass revealed plans for what could come to the complete surface lot bounded by 4th, 5th, Throckmorton and Houston. To quote him from the Star Telegram article,

 

 

 

150-room boutique hotel and room for about 500 parking spaces at what is now a parking lot at the southwest corner of Fourth and Houston streets

Read more here: http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy

 

 

Though these renders are fairly outdated at this point, they show what appears to be a fairly large building in this lot,  rather fitting as squeezing the amount of numbers into a 200x200 foot space would probably require a fair bit of verticality. 

 

For comparison, the Chase Bank building, which appears to be about the same size based on this rendering, is 195 feet tall, and it's garage contains 750 spaces. 

At this point, I don't really know if there is any more information about this project. I'm certainly interested in seeing when this could start up, if Schwarz will be the architect and if he will stick with his usual style, and what sort of branding the hotel may have. 

 

 

Soooooo...... this? 

[renamerusk]

 

150-room boutique hotel and room for about 500 parking spaces at what is now a parking lot at the southwest corner of Fourth and Houston streets.....Though these renders are fairly outdated at this point, they show what appears to be a fairly large building in this lot,  rather fitting as squeezing the amount of numbers into a 200x200 foot space would probably require a fair bit of verticality.....For comparison, the Chase Bank building, which appears to be about the same size based on this rendering, is 195 feet tall, and it's garage contains 750 spaces. 

 

Soooooo...... this? 

 

 

Austin and Jeriat, these are interesting observations and suggestions.  However, my immediate concern is not so much the 150-room boutique hotel, but the 500 parking spaces that are being proposed.  My gut reaction reading about the parking is, first, that it is too much for this project; and second, that it shall have an adverse impact upon the residences at The Tower. 

 

According to the study posted below,  a luxury or boutique hotel requires a ratio of 1.35 spaces per sleeping room; not the 3.3 spaces being suggested in this project.  Preferably, a total of 200-210 parking spaces, sufficient for a hotel of this size could be built below grade or at least if verticle, the façade might be more acceptable if it were to face other parking along 5^th Street.  As for the renderings of the “Monnig Building”, it is good aesthetically, except that the garage is too overwhelming in that location in my opinion.

 

Here is a study regarding the variables to consider for a hotel project.  It is moderately technical, but the bottom line is that the correct parking/room ratio for this project is 1.35

 

http://www.thefreeli...and.-a054010760

[Austin55]

I'm in absolute agreement. I'll paste what I said in Jeriats topic about his plan, (though in the context of a hotel it is a bit different)

I do question the need for a garage there though... the one behind Chase bank has never been completely full the few times I've been in it during work hours, and then there's that huge one just to the south (not sure about who owns that though) And I'd rather force garages as far out of the walkable core as possible. Maybe Sundance could do like what they did with the Cassidy and toss a few spaces underground, and in a way that traffic in and out wouldn't impede traffic badly as a public garage. 

I know both Ed Bass and Dave Schwarz understand the adverse effects on parking, I hope that he and the rest of Sundance Inc will build a parking in the most elegant way possible. 

I'd assume his reasoning for wanting to include the extra spaces is to allow the public to park there to. 

 

[Jeriat]

I'm in absolute agreement. I'll paste what I said in Jeriats topic about his plan, (though in the context of a hotel it is a bit different)I do question the need for a garage there though... the one behind Chase bank has never been completely full the few times I've been in it during work hours, and then there's that huge one just to the south (not sure about who owns that though) And I'd rather force garages as far out of the walkable core as possible. Maybe Sundance could do like what they did with the Cassidy and toss a few spaces underground, and in a way that traffic in and out wouldn't impede traffic badly as a public garage. 
I know both Ed Bass and Dave Schwarz understand the adverse effects on parking, I hope that he and the rest of Sundance Inc will build a parking in the most elegant way possible. 
I'd assume his reasoning for wanting to include the extra spaces is to allow the public to park there to. 

To be honest, I felt that a garage was going to happen. That's really why I put it there.

But since I made that model, I thought it would be good to have a hotel on the other side instead of that garage.

Hopefully the Bass family sees it that way as well before the dirt starts moving...

[Austin55]

I wonder, if it's possible to build a garage in such a way so that only a very small % is visible to the street and buildings across the street, and the majority of the actualy structure surrounds the garage itself.

I looked around downtown to find the garages which took up as small an area as possible. I came up with these two examples below. 

This first one here is the lot partially filled by Hyde Park. Imagine in the project that a new garage were built exactly this shape, outlined in yellow, and the rest of the building is outlined in blue. I count that this garage has approx 25 spaces per floor, and 9 levels of parking, so about 225 spaces. If the project were to include say, 2 levels of 200x200 foot area of parking, that about 60 cars per underground floor. 60+60+225=345. Still not enough as said, but a lot for sure. 

What's important about this though, is that only a very small percentage of the garages edges would be along the edge of the block. about 125 feet of this garage is exposed to the edge of the street, or about 15%, a much smaller amount the the nearly 50% exposed by the garage behind Chase Bank. 



So in this second example, I wondered if it'd be possible to build a garage where there is no exposure to the street whatsoever excluding the entrance and exit. So I found the smallest functional garage I could in DT, and measured out it's extents, and then moved those extents into the center of the block. 500 Commerce building has the smallest one I could come across. In this case, the garage would be in the very center of the block, and the rooms of the hotel itself would ring around that garage, offering views from every room. Now, I have no idea how many spaces this garage would have, or if there would even be enough room left between the blocks edge and garage wall,  and it's size would mean it would likely have to be very tall, but in a boutique hotel, I figure most of the parking that is going on will be done by valets anyway. 




I do believe I have to much time on my hands....
 

[Jeriat]

Actually, those are good examples. Maybe the garage (if that's what it is) will be hidden. 

[Austin55]

It's been months now with nothing new. A question for those that have been around longer than me. Does Sundance usually move from one project to the next after the last one was completed? I was curious if we'd begin to know more about this project now that the Cassidy is beginning to wrap up. 

[Jeriat]

Like the Cassidy and Plaza, this has been in the works since the 80's.

I'm in no rush. It'll get built.

[John T Roberts]

Sundance Square tends to build, then wait for it to fill up before proceeding on to the next building.  If you look at all of their completion dates of the newly constructed buildings, you will see that the gaps between them is longer than normal construction times.  Therefore, they wait a few years before starting the design of the next building.

[Austin55]

Had jury duty today. Got dismissed early. Drove past the lot on the way out. There were no cars in the lot and it had red and white "Sundance Square" barricades at the entrances. There was one pickup on site with a bed mounted drill, it looked like they were just about to start drilling into the pavement. Just west of the center of the lot.Could this be the first stages of site preparation? My only other thought is to perhaps install streetlights in the lot.

[dangr.dave]

From my recollection, they've been drilling there for several weeks.  I saw the truck with the auger on it today, but I also recall seeing it off and on over the past several weeks.

[John T Roberts]

I was going to make the same observation from when I was down there a couple of weeks ago.  From what I could see driving down the street, the drilling is for soil samples.  This is usually done in preparation for the design of a building.  In order for a foundation to be properly designed, the engineers have to know how deep into rock to pour the concrete piers to support a building.  This usually does indicate that construction may start after the information from the soils report is used to design a building, but it also may just mean that Sundance is getting ahead of the game by having that information.  Since this project has been mentioned several times since November, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Schwarz already has a conceptual building, or buildings, designed for that block.  The project may be even further along than that.  The conceptual designs may be done and the associate architect may now be in the process of preparing the construction documents.  We really don't know.

 

We have seen our clients have soils reports prepared and it would be several years before they even hired us to design a building. 

 

By the way, several years ago, I saw a design by Schwarz for a building on that site.  That's when I found out that the Cassidy project included the demolition of the old Saviano's/Whataburger building on the corner of 3rd and Houston.  To show you how things change, when I saw these building designs, the Cassidy was 22 stories.

 

Doing this soils report will probably be a good thing because it may solve in advance some of the problems found when they constructed the Westbrook and the Commerce Buildings.  If you remember, Brian Luenser photographed the remains of the old swimming pool from The Natatorium beneath the Commerce Building and the basement walls left in place from the Westbrook Hotel with the remains of the hotel shoved into it beneath the new Westbrook building.  I could have told the architects and Sundance that they pushed the demolition debris into the basement back in 1978 when they were clearing the site because I remember it and I watched it happen.  Unfortunately, I was not around when the Natatorium was demolished.  Getting back to this block where the samples were taken, I can tell Sundance right now that the old basement walls of Monnig's Department Store is still under the parking lot, and they also pushed some of the construction materials into the hole and then covered it over with paving. 

 

Sundance Square should have a record of this because they purchase the Monnig building, demolished it, and then paved it.  That was in 1991.  Unfortunately, my memory is not good enough to remember if the Bass Family purchased the Westbrook Hotel and demolished it, or someone else did all of that work and then the Basses bought it later.

[dangr.dave]

That must have been quite common.  I remember when they were re-doing Hyde Park and found walls or piers from the old library that had just been covered over when they turned the space into a parking lot.

[John T Roberts]

It is quite common, because it is the cheapest, and fastest way to get a parking lot built where a building once stood. 

[Dylan]

Has the land under the old Landmark Tower been fully cleared out, or is there a basement and debris under that parking lot?

[John T Roberts]

That block is a little different.  After the Continental National Bank was completed, there were seven buildings on that block.  After the CNB, the tallest building was the Bewley Building at the NE corner of 7th & Throckmorton.  It was five stories.  I can't remember if it had a basement.  The two buildings to the north of the Bewley were shorter and I think they were only two stories.  They might have been three.  On Houston Street, the two buildings next to CNB were two and three stories.  One was a stone building that had been remodeled, so I doubt it had a basement.  Now, let's look at the period of demolitions.  The Throckmorton blockface was demolished in the 1970's.  The two buildings north of the CNB/Landmark Tower were demolished in the 1980's, and the Landmark Tower was demolished in 2006.  I simply can't remember many of the details of the demolitions of either street facade, except that they came down.  The only building that I definitely know that has a basement was the Landmark Tower.  It had two levels below grade.  From what I can remember about the extreme length of time that it took to pave the parking lot, I believe that they removed the north and west basement walls in the center of the block and left the south and east walls that extended under the sidewalk.  I also seem to remember a slurry wall poured along Houston, so if they did that, then they removed the walls beneath the sidewalk on the street sides of the building.  They brought in fill dirt to infill the old basement. Therefore, to answer your question, it's been cleared out.

[Dylan]

*looks up slurry wall on Google*

 

Were basement walls built on top of slurry walls, or did one wall act as both?

 

Thanks.

[Austin55]

Johnny Campbell recently gave a presentation to the Alvarado Chamber of Commerce that was covered by the local paper, Alvarado Star. The significance of all this? This image, 

 

 

 

Look closely at the lot in question, 

 

 

Something is listed on it, 3 words long, but the words are indecipherable. 

[Austin55]

Speaking of skyscrapers, I have heard that the Basses are quietly putting together new plans for the last remaining surface lot in Sundance Square.  Currently it is proposed to be a parking garage/office/hotel.  It is said to be planned at 25 floors or more.  Waiting for all of the numbers to be hashed out before the exact size is revealed.

 

 

I just wanted to bring over this post that Big Frog II made. It seems like we may be getting closer and closer to hearing more about it. 

 

25 floors seems like a lot, especially with the Tower being right there, but if it's true that the building would contain offices and hotel as part of the development it could be tall. I wonder if residential units may be included to, similar to how the Cassidy and Jetta buildings both have small amounts of residential within them also. 

 

For some examples of what it may look like, here are two other currently proposed David. M Schwarz buildings, a apartment tower and a hotel.

[Dylan]

That would suck for Brian Luenser and other residents of the tower. Also, it wouldn't make a very big impact on the skyline from the east or west.

 

However, it would positively impact the skyline from the north. I'm interested in seeing renderings.

[JBB]

Sorry. If you move downtown in an urban area, you don't have any right to have your view preserved for eternity. And Brian's current condo is on the opposite side of the building anyway.

[Jeriat]

Sorry. If you move downtown in an urban area, you don't have any right to have your view preserved for eternity. And Brian's current condo is on the opposite side of the building anyway.

 

If I may add:

If you live in the core of the city, especially if it's a large and/or one of the fastest growing cities in America, you don't have any right to have your view preserved or complain about any major development that's built one block away... because it's going to happen. 

[Dylan]

Actually, you do have a right to complain about your view being blocked. It's called the first amendment.

 

Sundance can build anything they want on their property, but that does not mean residents who spent lots of $$$ on a nice view can't complain.

[John T Roberts]

25 stories seems a little tall for that block.  It is still pretty close to the plaza, and I would think that Schwarz would still want to keep the height relatively low.

[Austin55]

I was thinking the same, 25 seems like a lot. I think 10-15 would be perfect for the location, with some sort of prominent architectural focal point facing the plaza. 

[Jeriat]

More than likely, it'll be 10-15. Considering the number of rooms, I wouldn't expect another major highrise on that block.

[Austin55]

In the most recent Hunden Partners convention center study was this little list - with an interesting tidbit. A 350 room "Curio" at Houston and 4th, which would fit this sites description. Curio is  subbrand of Hilton.

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...i/Curio_(brand)

 

 

 

 

My initial reaction is that 350 rooms is quite large but would be a good fit for the site. For reference, the Worthington is 504 rooms. The Hampton, which might be a good camparison due to it's full block nature, is 245.

[renamerusk]

In the most recent Hunden Partners convention center study was this little list - with an interesting tidbit. A 350 room "Curio" at Houston and 4th, which would fit this sites description. Curio is  subbrand of Hilton.....My initial reaction is.......

 

If this is the Monnig's Block, then why is it still in the planning stage? 

 

Much has occurred while the owner of the Monnig's Block has been sitting on this site, such as the Sinclair, the AC Marriott, the 714 Main/ Kimpton, Sandmand all that are either nearing the end of construction, u/c, have gone through the P&Z.  Fort Worth should get on with the business of building convention center hotels (large&small).   If Fort Worth had to wait for the Monnig's Block development, it would be in a harder place than it is today. 

 

At some point, the Monnig's Block will be compelled to do something extraordinary other than a 350 hotel.  I would imagine a multi use office/hotel structure; one among the tallest in Downtown; and one that will be of interest to a corporation wanting to relocate to Downtown.

 

Actions speak louder than words.

[BlueMound]

Austin55
Your detective skills amaze me.

[John T Roberts]

Austin, thanks for posting this information. 

[Urbndwlr]

Thinking about scale of the planned/proposed hotel building on the Monnig's block: 

 

If that block (200x200) has 350 hotel rooms built and if it includes a garage within the block, it would be, what, about 6-7 stories of hotel rooms (wild guess) and another 4-6 or so of parking garage, all built over a retail/hotel lobby/restaurant ground floor.  

So if is just a hotel (no office, residential) would seem like the building could work out to 10-14 stories in height total.  Again, that assumes it would have an onsite, above-ground parking garage. 

[renamerusk]

Thinking about scale of the planned/proposed hotel building on the Monnig's block: If that block (200x200)....if it includes a garage within the block, it would be, what, about 6-7 stories of hotel rooms (wild guess) and another 4-6 or so of parking garage, all built over a retail/hotel lobby/restaurant ground floor.  

So if is just a hotel (no office, residential) would seem like the building could work out to 10-14 stories in height total.  Again, that assumes it would have an onsite, above-ground parking garage. 

 

 I find your thinking about the block size does not fit the reality.  200x200 Block (2.2)  has been more than adequate to erect four of the tallest towers in Downtown; with the tallest tower using 1/2 of a 2.2.B

 

And while I don't know the block size of Bank of America "Green" Tower in Dallas, it does seem from casual observation, that the tallest tower in the area is located on part of the block that is less than 2.2.B

 

The Monnig's Block should easily support the erection of a 50-70 story tower.

[Urbndwlr]

Yes its possible to build much taller,  I was just doing casual math to think about how tall it might be if they chose to only build a hotel use with associated garage in the same block.

 

The taller buildings you cited all have parking garages on other blocks, independent of the tower block.  So the projects actually span more than a single block. 

[renamerusk]

Yes its possible to build much taller,  I was just doing casual math to think about how tall it might be if they chose to only build a hotel use with associated garage in the same block.

 

The taller buildings you cited all have parking garages on other blocks, independent of the tower block.  So the projects actually span more than a single block. 

 

 Okay,  70-story is probably beyond the imagination of the Downtown Group, but a 250 meter multi use project is quite doable on a 2.2.B.

 

 The way that towers are erected today is radically different from the 1980s.  New projects, like 640 Taylor, the proposed 901 Commerce build atop of a podium (sub surface/grade garage). 

 

A 12 level sub/street garage,  Class A Office of 20 floors, hotel of 15 floors and residential of 15 floors can easily push the tower at 52 levels.