95 replies to this topic

[mosteijn]

WOW! It's not 35 stories, but I'll take it!

River-view condominium tower planned

By Sandra Baker

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


FORT WORTH - Another high-rise residential development is in the works downtown.

Ken Schaumburg, a Fort Worth architect behind several high-dollar condominium projects, plans a $48 million, 23-story condo tower on the western edge of downtown overlooking the Trinity River.

Schaumburg this week announced plans to begin construction early next year on The Ruins at Peach Street and Lexington Avenue.

The building will be near the new headquarters of Pier 1 Imports and RadioShack and within blocks of two other Schaumburg projects: The Versailles and Bluff Street, both condo developments under construction. The Versailles is a seven-unit building at Henderson and Peach streets, Bluff Street a four-unit building at 959 Bluff St.

Besides good views of downtown and the riverfront, Schaumburg said the new high-rise will be loaded with amenities. The sales hype is backed by hyper luxuries -- and prices.

Prices will run about $250 a square foot for such services as a 24-hour concierge, downtown shuttle service, a heliport, business center, world-class spa, restaurants and a private club with a swimming pool.

"It's really catering to every possible convenience," Schaumburg said. "It has a ton of interest."

The high-rise will have just 49 units, averaging about 3,500 square feet. At projected construction costs, the prices will range from $800,000 to $1 million. About half the condos are set to be two-story units with mezzanines, 22-foot ceilings and grand staircases.

The Ruins raises the tally of downtown residential units in the pipeline. Planners have a goal of about 2,500 owner-occupied units in the next several years, but even if all the projects that have been announced are built, the market won't be near that number. About 850 units are available or planned.

"The market study that's a couple of years old says we can support the units," said Andrew Taft, president of Downtown Fort Worth Inc.

The Ruins -- based on post-modern architecture influenced by the Coliseum ruins in Rome -- is an evolution of the Summit Ruins, a project Schaumburg had planned at Seventh Street and Summit Avenue about five years ago. The project has not been built.

The Ruins, he said, "is being generated by a group of people that wanted to build Summit Ruins. We've got concept drawings, and we are diligently working away at it. We're reacting to demand."

The Ruins will have two floors for businesses and at least five levels of parking, Schaumburg said. Each floor will be about 12,500 square feet.

In the next 90 days, Schaumburg said he will begin pre-sales of Le Bijou, a 16-unit condo complex at Jones and Sixth streets on the eastern edge of downtown. Those units also will sell for more than $1 million.

In addition to the downtown projects, Schaumburg is nearing completion on the Schaumburg Lofts at College and Daggett avenues on the near south side.

He has also planned Paris Village, a 75-lot mixed-use development near Broadway Avenue and Lipscomb Street.

[Redshirt]

Wow, that's awesome. wish I could be there to see it go up but I'll have to rely on you guys to post some pictures. Can't wait to see that end of town, as well as the rest of downtown, begin to prosper and grow more.

[normanfd]

I'm assuming this means that plans for the Ruins at Summitt must be regarded as dead and that this project is inspired by the previous plans. I don't know how that inspiration will work on such a larger building, but I hope it does. I thought the plans for the previous Ruins were so different from anything I've ever seen, and I can hardly wait until Schaumburg releases renderings. I think this is exciting.

[mosteijn]

Here was the Summit Ruins design (I wonder if he still owns that plot of land...):



I'm not to sure I want to see a high-rise version of this

[Willy1]

22 foot ceilings - won't that mean the building is taller than the typical 23 story building?

[redhead]

I just wonder if it's on the same construction schedule as the former "ruins." He seems to make many announcements that never see activity. It's becoming a major issue of credibility in my book. The key to any high-rise is going to be financing and unless he has a partner with a HUGE financial statement, that alone could become a stumbling block. Unlike his loft project where he could use down payment money as part of his "equity", the laws in Texas disallow that tactic when condos are involved...which makes the financing much more difficult to obtain---even WITH presales.

[mosteijn]

Hm, I did some calculations based on the article, and I estimate the height of the building to be between 260 and 325 feet. That is pretty high for a 23 story tower, and it'll look very nice next to Pier 1.

I hope a finance source can be found. If only construction costs were lower, maybe banks would be more willing to take the risk. China needs to stop hogging the concrete so condos can be decently priced again!

[John T Roberts]

Jonny, because it is residential, I'm willing to bet that it's final height will be closer to 260 feet. Between 11'-0" and 12'-0" from floor to floor should be plenty of floor height for a building of this type.

[mosteijn]

Yeah, I was using the 22 foot ceiling info. I don't see why anyone would need 22 foot ceilings though...

It probably won't be 325 feet but hey, I can dream, can't I?

[JBB]

Just a guess, but the 22 foot ceiling is probably the total height of both stories of each unit, with only a living area or entry area having open ceilings that tall.

[John T Roberts]

JBB, I would suspect that your calculations are probably correct. Only the living area would have a 22' ceiling.

[mosteijn]

I hope this spurs more interest in building high-rises in the Upper West Side. Firestone is great, but we need more diversity in the buildings and to fill the newly created gap between Pier 1 and the rest of downtown. If new development had parking incorporated into the structure, we could probably get away with a few 300-400 footers that only had 100-200 units (less risk, I'm assuming).

Either way I'm still skeptical about the design of the building...

[renamerusk]

"I'm not to sure I want to see a high-rise version of this"


--------------------
I am with you, Johnnyrules23!

Why Ancient Rome? Isn't Fort Worth's "TexArch"; ie the Public Market a better model to emulate?

Schaumberg seems to be all over the place with his designs (French, Italian, Acient Rome). He is gone amok!

[RD Milhollin]

I'm glad others are chiming in about their opinions of the motif planned for the "Ruins", both the "old" Ruins and the "New" Ruins. I felt I was definitely in the minority when I originally voiced my contention that the design for the first project, next to Cash America, was in poor taste. I have not changed my opinion of the second, more ambitious plan. Come on, he can do better than that! I would prefer to have the proposed building called the "Wreck" instead of the Ruins. Don't you suppose we have enough nice old buildings around the city in "ruinous" conditions that deserve to be restored without building something that looks like it needs fixing from the start? How about a modern building based on the design of my favorite of downtown FW high rises, the original Medical Arts Building that once sat on Burnett Plaza, now the location of the strange bank building with the doghouse on the top.

Woof

Pup

[tcole]

Check the thermometer in Hades.

I am actually in agreement with Pup AND Renamerusk on this. With the exception that "he can do better than that."

Come on Pup, have you ever perused the guy's website? He is the most self agrandized mediocre architect that I can think of (at least as of this writing). That said, I do give him credit for selling designs - and I know some of his clients (although I question their taste). But you guys are on the mark about the "Ruins" proposal - at least if it is close to what was originally proposed. Hideous! Then again, drive through Mira Vista; a clintele with deep pockets exists for bad residential architecture. You should see what he designed and was built on the lot next to the only Lake/Flato designed residence in FW - what is termed in the trade "a $2 mil 'tear down'"; only the client spent closer to 4 according to a friend of mine who contracted on it.

[fwpcman]

I also have my doubts about this project. Was this announcement only a ploy to pull in possible investors and potential very wealthy tenants? I'm not so sure that there is even a market for that many high end condos in Fort Worth at this time.

[tcole]

Oh there certainly is probably a market for that many high end condos - but probably not for that particular location. If you are going to plunk down $1mil+ for a condo in FW it had better be a good bit closer to Westover Hills or another neighborhood of approximate cache. Else, that target market starts to dry up pretty fast.

[redhead]

Closer to Westover with a high rise probably would never fly zoning-wise. What if it were closer in to Sundance? Based on the track record of the Tower, do you guys think another high rise walkable to Sundance would work? Or what about a tower overlooking the river? Or what do you think about a West Village type development adjacent to downtown? A mixed use development with some surface retail, townhomes and towers? Maybe a luxury type hotel with serivices available to an adjacent condo complex? Just day-dreaming here this morning...

[JBB]

Isn't this project going to be overlooking the river as it is?

[mosteijn]

While the area right now might not be "ooh la la", it's projects like this that will bring it there. Right now it's just empty lots, so anything is possible.

Hey redhead, I would love to see a West Village like development just west of So7 filling in all that industrial land between it and the museums!

[tcole]

red:

Not next to WH, that project died in the early 80's. But perhaps along Camp Bowie or near the museums. Possibly along University near the river. The prospective clientele that would be willing (at least in FW) and able to negotiate $1mil+ high rise condos are going to likely be empty nesters (FW just does not have as deep a well - as say Houston, Dallas, or even Austin - of either high net worth or very high income younger professionals and the like who would have the means of getting into that price point) who will want to be closer the amenities that they utilize more often - think country clubs and the like. Downtown urban living is not what they are going to justify that price for - especially sparse urban living out of the central core. Maybe in 10 or so years if that area near P1 gels as Jrules suspects - and Jonny, remember the supply/demand argument, the oo lala usually follows, not leads. On your other Q Jonny, some West Village like projects are in the very nascent planning stages for the very area you specify - most are waiting to see the "fallout" from the Wards project.

[redhead]

One mixed use project on the westside is already under construction---Leonard Oaks, on the old Leonard property next to Shady Oaks golf course...target market is certainly affluent move-down westsiders. I was just curious what the forum folks would think if the developer of Trinity Bluff went after more of a West Village or Addison Circle concept.

[Willy1]

The prospective clientele that would be willing (at least in FW) and able to negotiate $1mil+ high rise condos are going to likely be empty nesters (FW just does not have as deep a well - as say Houston, Dallas, or even Austin - of either high net worth or very high income younger professionals and the like who would have the means of getting into that price point) who will want to be closer the amenities that they utilize more often - think country clubs and the like.

hey tcole,

Just curious - where are you getting this information? Just asking because, unlike the other cities you mentioned, FW is considered an "old money" city. And, because of that, FW has money in places that those other cities don't have.... And, trust me, there are plenty of FW people on the west side who have more than enough money to get into the $1m+ market. Just drive through Westover, Rivercrest, Monticello, or Mira Vista and see how many young moms there are swinging their newborns in tree swings in the front yards. I don't think they'll have any problem meeting market supply of high-end urban living.

[tcole]

I agree Willy; there are plenty of people with the means. I should have made that post more clear by indicating that the population of younger professionals with the means AND desire is much lower here than in the other cities noted. Those with such means do not for the most part have the desire to trade equivalent dollars for "urban living" whereas they will trade those dollars for homes in Westover and Monticello. The best market for the proposed building is really just not present in FW as of this date, leaving the second best prospects as the more affluent "empty nesters" who also for the most part do not show as much a desire for the urban feel. As to my information source, just people I know - you can choose to value the source any way you please.

[mosteijn]

Maybe in 10 or so years if that area near P1 gels as Jrules suspects - and Jonny, remember the supply/demand argument, the oo lala usually follows, not leads.

Well, how can the area get to be nice if no one takes a chance on it like Schaumburg is? Just because it's got the term "west side" in it won't make it affluent alone, and as I understand it, developers who see the success of high-end developments in one area tend to think other high-end developments can be just as successful there as well. Either way, something has to catylize it, and The Ruins and it's followers will most likely be it.

[Willy1]

Hey Tcole and Jonny... I agree with both of you... The young upper class people in FW are more likely to move to Monticello, River Crest, Westover, etc. Mainly because the urban lifestyle isn't as inviting for those who have small children. But, I think FW has a market for those high rises too. Maybe not as many as uptown in Dallas... but definitely a few. I was in uptown in Dallas today and it's crazy how many 20-something story high rise residential buildings there are now in that part of Dallas. Add those to the mix-use high rises and that part of Dallas could probably rival downtown Austin in the number of high rise buildings and some of them would rival Austin in overall height as well. Pretty wild. I wish our "upper West Side" would see some of those types of development numbers!

[tcole]

I think that a highrise building where Shaumberg (sp?) is proposing could work - just not at the price point mentioned in the article. Almost all of the uptown stuff going up in Dallas is intended to be below the $1mil point (although there is some closer to T Creek in that range). The economics of the million dollar price point are very different from the 250-400k condo market which makes location even more important. And Jonny, the area very well could become very desirable, but not as the result of one such endeavor. That price point clientele usually follows and will not lead unless the concept is "master planned" - and I do not see Shaumberg locking up 9-10+ blocks of west downtown for a major project. He might, and that would suprise me, but I doubt it. I think that he would have an easier sell if the proposed building went accross University from University Park or along Camp Bowie clsoser to River Crest (although the zoning hearings are going to be tougher).

[Willy1]

Yeah, the zoning along Camp Bowie for a high rise would be difficult unless it is sort of railroaded through under the radar from the people in the area. I live off Camp Bowie in the River Crest area and this neighborhood is getting pretty upset about all the building going on that doesn't fit into the 'hood. I know there was a moratorium on multifamily units in this area - aimed at townhomes. I doubt the folks in this area would be happy about a 20+ highrise going in along Camp Bowie. Most people like the old feeling the neighborhood has and a skyscraper on the historic bricks would kill that feeling. It might fly if it were somewhere between Will Rogers and 30 off Montgomery, or on University across from the museums though. I think we're going to see a real transformation in the areas between the Cultural District and downtown. I could see most of that industrial area and Linwood disappearing in the next few years and could easily see those areas becoming very "Uptown/West Village" in nature.

So... question now is this... on another thread someone mentioned rumors of a high rise building going up downtown, but that it was just a rumor at this point. Is that rumor associated with any of the residential buildings that have recently been announced, or is there still a rumor of yet another highrise going up in downtown?

[JBB]

I think the rumor being discussed and this announcement refer to the same project.

[normanfd]

Linwood residents are concerned about preserving their neighborhood's character as well:

Fort Worth Weekly article

[mosteijn]

What? Sorry if I sound arrogant, but how can Wendy Davis want that area to "keep it's integrity" as a working class neighborhood, when it's surrounded on all sides by either rapidly gentrifying industrial areas or new apartments/townhomes? And how long do the people that live there think they can keep their neighborhood the same?

I think the Linwood residents would find it in their best interest to hold out until the MW project opens, wait for the developers/investors to start offering 2 to 3 times the current value of the homes, and move to a nicer area of town (or if they want to keep that "integrity" they can go to the dozens of other hoods that feel the same way as Linwood). Either way, Linwood's location puts it in the direct path of development, and it will happen whether they like it or not.

I doubt the city would give them protection either becuase, for one thing, the houses aren't exactly something to boast about in terms of design, and I highly doubt the federal government would give the hood historic status. And which do you think looks better to the city on their tax books, $ or $$$?

[RD Milhollin]

A high rise along Camp Bowie anywhere between Montgomery and Merrick would be a disaster for the neighborhood, IMHO.

Pup

[mosteijn]

Would anyone oppose a 7-14 story structure on the current Eckerds (which, btw, I drove by today, the copper roof and stone accents are a nice touch BUT you can't hide the fact that it's a hideous suburban style store...) at Montgomery and Camp Bowie?

I drew a quick plan up for a tower a while ago, and it would kind of taper off as it got closer to the neigborhood to a 4 story parking structure from a 12 story tower, would feature ground floor retail (maybe the Eckerds could basically be given space for free as an incentive for taking their land), and it would be triangular, with the corner being like a turret. I was thinking something along the lines of French Chateu for design, haven't picked a name though. I think the proximity to UNTHSC would mean less opposition from neighbors.

[normanfd]

What? Sorry if I sound arrogant, but how can Wendy Davis want that area to "keep it's integrity" as a working class neighborhood, when it's surrounded on all sides by either rapidly gentrifying industrial areas or new apartments/townhomes? And how long do the people that live there think they can keep their neighborhood the same?

I think the Linwood residents would find it in their best interest to hold out until the MW project opens, wait for the developers/investors to start offering 2 to 3 times the current value of the homes, and move to a nicer area of town (or if they want to keep that "integrity" they can go to the dozens of other hoods that feel the same way as Linwood). Either way, Linwood's location puts it in the direct path of development, and it will happen whether they like it or not.

I doubt the city would give them protection either becuase, for one thing, the houses aren't exactly something to boast about in terms of design, and I highly doubt the federal government would give the hood historic status. And which do you think looks better to the city on their tax books, $ or $$$?

Gee, Johnny, I'm ashamed of this post of yours. Don't you understand that a city works through the contributions of all its citizens? The developement on the near West Side benefits Linwood because this will create nearby job opportunities available to Linwood's residents. Instead of allowing them to take advantage of these opportunities and continue maintaining one of the city's oldest communities, you instead propose that they move out and make room for progress.

I'm sorry, but asking all the "Meskins" to move out and make room so filthy rich white folk can can destroy a neighborhood andlive in condos in the name of "progress" is not the answer. Dynamic cities become so because they grow upon the diversities of their populations.

I realize you live in North Crowley. I understand your neighborhood probably didn't even exist even a generation ago. Even you must admit that most of your neighbors will sell out and resettle elsewhere within the next generation depending on where job opportunities take them. You must understand what it means to people who have lived in the same neighborhood on their familiy's land for multiple generations and have done so with the same neighbors who have also kept their lands within their families. These people really do have an almot small town sense of community

Sure, if Linwood residents sold out and bought nicer places in the suburbs, they'd end up paying higher property taxes on their far out, suburban homes, and they would no longer live near the places they work or the city they take pride in. Remember, a healthy downtown requires not just office and retail workers, but also the blue collar infrastructure workers that keep things running. Let's keep things running better by having these workers be from amongst us rather than importing them from Arlington.

[mosteijn]

What I meant is that they're being stubborn if they think they can stay there and lead the same lifestyle for much longer. Once MW opens, developers will be itching to get their hands on land in the immediate vicinity. Where would that land be? Sure there's lots of industial land around MW, but Linwood is closest to it.

Where did I say I wanted them to move to the suburbs or that I wanted "filthy rich white folk" to move in once they're gone? I just meant the residents can see this as a positive thing, because once they sell their houses for a whole lot more than they bought them, they have a chance to move up in society; get a new job, a new car, send a child to college, go back to college themselves, or even buy a new house. One of the developers said he wanted to focus on the more affordable condo market, in the $100,000 range, so maybe the residents could move back into Linwood, just not the tiny cottages that used to be there.

About property taxes, when property values double or triple, how do you think that's going to affect their property taxes? That alone might force many of them out, and I'm just saying, it's pretty much inevitable.

[Urbndwlr]

The prospective clientele that would be willing (at least in FW) and able to negotiate $1mil+ high rise condos are going to likely be empty nesters (FW just does not have as deep a well - as say Houston, Dallas, or even Austin - of either high net worth or very high income younger professionals and the like who would have the means of getting into that price point)

Tcole, I don't think any of the cities you named have abundant numbers of young people who are able to pay over $1 million for condos. In those cities, like Fort Worth, the target market for super luxury condos is the empty nester (or otherwise child-less) adults ages 40+.

[Urbndwlr]

QUOTE (Jonnyrules23 @ Sep 10 2004, 04:49 PM)
What? Sorry if I sound arrogant, but how can Wendy Davis want that area to "keep it's integrity" as a working class neighborhood, when it's surrounded on all sides by either rapidly gentrifying industrial areas or new apartments/townhomes? And how long do the people that live there think they can keep their neighborhood the same?

I think the Linwood residents would find it in their best interest to hold out until the MW project opens, wait for the developers/investors to start offering 2 to 3 times the current value of the homes, and move to a nicer area of town (or if they want to keep that "integrity" they can go to the dozens of other hoods that feel the same way as Linwood). Either way, Linwood's location puts it in the direct path of development, and it will happen whether they like it or not.

I doubt the city would give them protection either becuase, for one thing, the houses aren't exactly something to boast about in terms of design, and I highly doubt the federal government would give the hood historic status. And which do you think looks better to the city on their tax books, $ or $$$?

Gee, Johnny, I'm ashamed of this post of yours. Don't you understand that a city works through the contributions of all its citizens? The developement on the near West Side benefits Linwood because this will create nearby job opportunities available to Linwood's residents. Instead of allowing them to take advantage of these opportunities and continue maintaining one of the city's oldest communities, you instead propose that they move out and make room for progress.

I'm sorry, but asking all the "Meskins" to move out and make room so filthy rich white folk can can destroy a neighborhood andlive in condos in the name of "progress" is not the answer. Dynamic cities become so because they grow upon the diversities of their populations.

- Norman



#1: Johnny said nothing about white people or Mexicans. It's not a great idea to invent/inflate controversy when unnecessary. It's insulting for you to suggest that he had racist intentions behind his comment regarding the redevelopment of the neighborhood.

#2: I believe he is actually suggesting that the natural market forces will (if growth continues in that coridor) result in a change in the entire neighborhood and that each existing resident will be able to capitalize on the increased market value of their house.

#3: Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill. Linwood is not one of the oldest neighborhoods in the city (I believe it was developed by GI bill money after WWII - right?). Also, it has, to my knowledge, no architecturally or historically significant buildings.

I agree with you about having a heterogeneous city - that is a good thing. Let's just not make Linwood into something it isn't.

[Urbndwlr]

But you guys are on the mark about the "Ruins" proposal - at least if it is close to what was originally proposed. Hideous! Then again, drive through Mira Vista; a clintele with deep pockets exists for bad residential architecture.

Wow. Well put. I think the Ruins design is ridiculous. I applaud him for pursuing a highrise condo project, however a Vegas-style thematic building is going to repel anyone in the market with any taste.

I like the idea someone threw out about a design similar to the old Medical Arts building. Brilliant idea. You should email Schaumburg with that suggestion. Then cross your fingers.

[mosteijn]

#2: I believe he is actually suggesting that the natural market forces will (if growth continues in that coridor) result in a change in the entire neighborhood and that each existing resident will be able to capitalize on the increased market value of their house.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks, Urb.

And about getting the design changed, I'm afraid we're too late for that. I think the negative criticism Schaumburg will undoubtedly receive due to the design of this tower (well, I guess we don't know that yet) will be enough to get him to think twice before he goes off on a tangent and does a project like this again. At least, we can hope...

[John T Roberts]

Bob Ray Sanders has an interesting column on the residential developments in today's Fort Worth Star-Telegram.

http://www.dfw.com/m...ers/9645138.htm

[tcole]

dweller"

They do. Maybe not so much in Austin anymore, but in Dallas and Houston?, easily. Houston also benefits from a large demand by affluent Latins who want to get "pesos" out of their native countries for tax purposes and thus maintain secondary residences that are VERY nice - alsmost the entire Warwick Tower is Latin owned. OTOH, I do agree that most of that construction is indeed aimed at the older affluent "empty nester."

[normanfd]

In retrospect, I deserved the wet noodle lashing. Johnny, I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to suggest in any way that your opinions were motivated by race, and I certainly could have expressed myself better without the diatribe.

The recent article in the Fort Worth Weekly quoted Linwood residents who said that many neighborhood homeowners were offered money that was inadequate to buy similar housing elsewhere. If the people of Linwood don't feel that developers respect their neighborhood as much as other West Side neighborhoods, they should just refuse to sell to developers.

Condos and apartments are great for singles, empty nesters, and retired couples, but the central city needs housing for the broadest possible segments of society. Linwood residents shouldn't be encouraged to move out of their homes and live elsewhere especially since they would probably have long commutes to reach jobs that are presently nearby. Linwood is also an excellent neighborhood for young couples seeking lower-cost starter homes.

The city certainly shouldn't rezone the neighborhood away from anything other than single-home residential without taking into accout the concerns of the neighborhood's residents regardless of what high-fallutin' looking proposals some developers may present. People in other neighborhoods make noise when they feel their family's residential environment has come under threat, and it's perfectly reasonable to expect the people of Linwood to do the same.

[redhead]

If done with respect to the neighbors' needs (i.e., give them enough money to find a replacement house) I think that Linwood residents would sell out in a heartbeat. And why not? I agree with whoever said earlier that there is no architectural significance in the Linwood area---the city would be better served on the tax rolls if it went the MU2 route of So7 and was completely rebuilt. As an island of residential surrounded on all sides by commercial, I have my doubts that it will stay that way for too long.

[mosteijn]

MU2 would be great for Linwood. As a matter of fact, ALL the land between downtown, University (maybe Bailey?), the West Fork and Lancaster should be rezoned MU2 (IMO). I could envision that whole area becoming 10 times better than what it is now.

But of course, we would have to find some way to keep the area's integrity as a dirty industrial area. What else could be more attractive right next to some world-class museums?

[Brian Luenser]

David, we get your point. However; I was told by the Tower office that 3 of the 4 penthouses in the Tower sold in the first month. (2-2004) and the fourth is unsold, but not actively marketed. (And I am heading for my piggy bank after I send this.)