39 replies to this topic

[Austin55]

With the recent focus on making Lancaster more walkable and urban I wanted to play with the idea of fixing the empty surface lot in front of the historic T&P Station and Post office and to see if the forumers had any ideas.  It's a tough area to think about because the grid just collapsses into nonsense and the two very important historic structures are'nt really layed out in a way that sits on roadways, plus a park. 

My idea consists of a new East to West road that the station would sit directly on and lead to the garage behind T&P, and a southward continuation of Houston and Throckmorton. This is the way the parking lot is basically layed out right now, just a bit wonkier. 

This layout would create a new block on which a building could perhaps be built, I'd guess just a few stories and similar to the T&P lofts across the way. The problem with this is that there could be some complaints that sight-lines of the station are cut away, but really this is only limited as it would still be placed on a street.

 

It gets further trickier towards the post office. If Throckmorton were continued directly south, the post office would be nearly 80 feet away from the street (google earth measurements) You certainly could'nt put a building in front of the office, maybe a park? or some sort of open space? Then it gets even more confusing at the south end of the Post Office and the garage bays and whether or not something could be put there.

 

TL;DR, My idea on how to fix this lot.

Red-Streets

Blue-Structure

Green-Public Space/no idea

[RD Milhollin]

I suppose the first thing I would ask is how relevant the warehouse/dock structure south of the "?" on your diagram is. If that was gone, there would be more you could do with that green area. The larger blue area in front of the Station would be a fantastic location for a public space, even better with a couple levels of parking underneath.

[Jeriat]

With the recent focus on making Lancaster more walkable and urban I wanted to play with the idea of fixing the empty surface lot in front of the historic T&P Station and Post office and to see if the forumers had any ideas.  It's a tough area to think about because the grid just collapsses into nonsense and the two very important historic structures are'nt really layed out in a way that sits on roadways, plus a park. 

My idea consists of a new East to West road that the station would sit directly on and lead to the garage behind T&P, and a southward continuation of Houston and Throckmorton. This is the way the parking lot is basically layed out right now, just a bit wonkier. 

This layout would create a new block on which a building could perhaps be built, I'd guess just a few stories and similar to the T&P lofts across the way. The problem with this is that there could be some complaints that sight-lines of the station are cut away, but really this is only limited as it would still be placed on a street.

 

It gets further trickier towards the post office. If Throckmorton were continued directly south, the post office would be nearly 80 feet away from the street (google earth measurements) You certainly could'nt put a building in front of the office, maybe a park? or some sort of open space? Then it gets even more confusing at the south end of the Post Office and the garage bays and whether or not something could be put there.

 

TL;DR, My idea on how to fix this lot.

Red-Streets

Blue-Structure

Green-Public Space/no idea

Just a thought.

How about switching the Public Space with one of the structures (the one directly in front of the T&P) that way you have the T&P in view wide from Lancaster with a public space to highlight it? 

[Austin55]

^Becuase I would'nt want to block the view of the post office either, which, being shorter, would completly block it out, and T&P is still plenty big, plus a new street infront of it with residents+retail might attract even more attention to it and potentially be a great area for business since T&P is still a functioning transit station.

 

I suppose the first thing I would ask is how relevant the warehouse/dock structure south of the "?" on your diagram is. If that was gone, there would be more you could do with that green area. The larger blue area in front of the Station would be a fantastic location for a public space, even better with a couple levels of parking underneath.

 

I think the dock structure would make and awesome outdoor restaurant. Open up those doors and use the bays as a big pation, looking out over the park in front.

The reason I feel it would be a bit strange to turn the whole area into a open space is it just seems like to much green space. I think it's be neat to see buildings and retail across the street from T&P, line that street with trees, etc. Really, you aren't going to lose a whole lot of views of T&P, and you might gain some pretty nice ones looking down this theoretical street. I would make one alter to my above plan though, throw in a pedestrian corridor/plaza down the middle, like so, 

 

 

Light Blue-Outdoor restruant patio

Green-Open Space
Red-Streets

Blue-Mixed Use multi story structure

Orange-open pedestrian mall/sightline corridor

 

[Austin55]

I went way more in depth into this idea-

One thing to keep in mind is that the T&P terminal sorts of shifts over due to it's height. 
 

 

1. Existing U.S. Post Office 

2. Short term (15minute) landscaped parking lot to serve the Post Office. Includes Handicapped and bike parking.

3. Existing T&P loading docks. To be renovated into a retail facade, possibly in a market layout. 
4. Covered open space with fountain and seating
5. Raised seating area 

6. Existing T&P condominium building
7. Existing T&P Tavern and rail station

8. Existing T&P Lofts building
9. New mixed use building, first floor retail with upper floor residential. Between 2-5 stories to preserve T&P views. 
10. Closed streetway between mixed use buildings. Includes fountain, seating and retail space. Preserve T&P views from Lancaster. Think like Montgomery Ward without cars. 
11. New mixed use building, first floor retail with upper floor residential. Between 2-5 stories to preserve T&P views.
12. Third new building. Perhaps offices or mixed use. Again, not to tall. 
13. Improvements to  Haynes Memorial Triangle Park
14. (not shown) additional parking for new development accessed by ramp, behind T&P. 

I have'nt done any detail on the 3 buildings themselves, but I'd imagine someone who can carefully balance historic and new would be perfect for the job. In other words- Schwarz. I imagine the buildings looking something like his USC building, 


Sourcehttp://www.skyscrape...1022349&page=12


ALTERNATIVELY- As I mentioned in the replace the watergardens thread, here's an overlay of Klyde Warren park and the space shown above. 

 

So what's everyone think?
 

[renamerusk]

 

 

 

2. Short term (15minute) landscaped parking lot to serve the Post Office. Includes Handicapped and bike parking.

3. Existing T&P loading docks. To be renovated into a retail facade, possibly in a market layout. 
4. Covered open space with fountain and seating
5. Raised seating area 

9. New mixed use building, first floor retail with upper floor residential. Between 2-5 stories to preserve T&P views. 
10. Closed streetway between mixed use buildings. Includes fountain, seating and retail space. Preserve T&P views from Lancaster. Think like Montgomery Ward without cars. 
11. New mixed use building, first floor retail with upper floor residential. Between 2-5 stories to preserve T&P views.
13. Improvements to  Haynes Memorial Triangle Park

 

 

Here, above, is my redaction keeping your ideas that appeal to me.  Really think that either #9 or #11 could be the site to meet the demand for some sorely needed grocery retail in downtown. 

[Volare]

So what's everyone think?

 

 

I would center 10 on the front of the T&P. Right now it looks like it is shifted to the west of center, which I imagine would look a little strange. That makes 9 and 11 different sizes, which I think from a real estate standpoint might be a good thing...

[Jeriat]

T&P Park?
T&P Center?
South End Station?
Lancaster Point?

[Jeriat]

This is beyond an amazing idea and looooooong overdue.

There are several concepts (like this) that could definitely work out for that side of downtown. Would be a serious boost to Lancaster along with the apartments.

A moderately priced urban grocery store could work there, serving the south end of downtown, the near east, and Near Southside.

[Dylan]

I would replace building 12 with an extension of Haynes Park. Other than that, looks great.

[Austin55]

 

I would center 10 on the front of the T&P. Right now it looks like it is shifted to the west of center, which I imagine would look a little strange. That makes 9 and 11 different sizes, which I think from a real estate standpoint might be a good thing...

 

 

It's meant to be centered, at first I thought it was an illusion caused by T&P's height but you may be right. 

 

 

 

 

 

Here, above, is my redaction keeping your ideas that appeal to me.  Really think that either #9 or #11 could be the site to meet the demand for some sorely needed grocery retail in downtown. 

 

 

I had kinda wondered if that 3-4-5 area could be used as an indoor/outdoor market. 
 

T&P Park?
T&P Center?
South End Station?
Lancaster Point?

 

Oh name ideas. Definitely like the word "Station" being in there. Lancaster Station maybe?
 

This is beyond an amazing idea and looooooong overdue.

There are several concepts (like this) that could definitely work out for that side of downtown. Would be a serious boost to Lancaster along with the apartments.

A moderately priced urban grocery store could work there, serving the south end of downtown, the near east, and Near Southside.

 

It just really bug me that two great and historic FW landmarks are surrounded by crumbing surface lots. Especially when one of those landmarks is a transit hub. Seem like a perfect place for transit oriented development. And the people living in T&P don't have a pleasent connection to downtown as it stands. 

If South Main and Lancaster pick up a grocer could be a viable tenant perhaps. 

 

I would replace building 12 with an extension of Haynes Park. Other than that, looks great.

I considered that, would definitely work out. My backup plan would be a dog park for that area. 

[Volare]

Lancaster Station is a great idea for a name!

 

The dog park idea is beyond awesome. OK City has a mini dog park in the shadow of the Devon Tower, and something like that would be perfect in this smaller space.

 

With the removal of the south wall of the Water Gardens, I see this whole area blowing up. But you're right, the crumbling surface lots- bisected by a bunch of barriers making usage even more difficult- are an embarrasment.

[AndyN]

Lancaster Station sounds confusing. Imagine someone from out of town trying to get to that TRE station. The T&P Station at Lancaster Station?

 

"Courtyard at T&P Station" or "T&P Station Square" or some variation of a complementary naming convention would be my preference.

[Jeriat]

Lancaster Station is a great idea for a name!
 
The dog park idea is beyond awesome. OK City has a mini dog park in the shadow of the Devon Tower, and something like that would be perfect in this smaller space.
 
With the removal of the south wall of the Water Gardens, I see this whole area blowing up. But you're right, the crumbling surface lots- bisected by a bunch of barriers making usage even more difficult- are an embarrasment.

In time, we won't even remember those lots...

[renamerusk]

It might make sense to incorporate the Water Gardens in the branding of the development. WG Market, WG Place, etal.

[RD Milhollin]

Texas and Pacific Plaza

[Jeriat]

It might make sense to incorporate the Water Gardens in the branding of the development. WG Market, WG Place, etal.

Maybe. But the Water Gardens are just a somewhat small part of that corridor. Maybe if the WG was bigger than it is, I'd fully agree.

[renamerusk]

 

 

13. Improvements to  Haynes Memorial Triangle Park.

 

 

 Pipe water from Water Gardens to Haynes Memorial Triangle Park for the installation of a giant water fountain with spray.

[Austin55]

Here's a 3d version. I ditched the 3rd build for an expanded Al Hayne Park as we had talked about. I think the 3d views better show off the view corridors I had imagined when I made this, before we had 3d in Google Earth.

 

 

(This would ideally be centered but I messed up a bit)

 

[Jeriat]

Looks good. 

[Fort Worthology]

Yes, I'm a fan, especially if you imagine an eventual new project on the Kent lot to help enclose the park a bit.

[BedfordLawyer]

With the post office staying a post office I wonder how much of the office space in that building is really in use. It seems like very little of the building is in use, especially in the publicly visible areas. Perhaps the USPS would be open to the idea of converting some of the unused space into commercial office space in favor of bringing business to the post office there and better incorporating it into a broader T&P community.

[John T Roberts]

I have seen the plans of what the USPS is doing at the Post Office Building to bring the postal inspectors into the facility.  This was done through Historic Fort Worth, Inc. being a partner with the National Trust for Historic Preservation and with the Texas Historical Commission.  The renovation drawings show that the inspector's offices and functions will make most of the building occupied.  I would guess the remainder of the space would be used for future departmental expansions.

[renamerusk]

 

 

It seems fairly evident to me and may be some others that the modern attempts to replicate these magnificent WPA monuments fail miserably.  I believe that the existing vista of these structures should not be sacrificed for commercialization.

 

The best use of the space is a public plaza like Sundance Square.  Include water fountains and splash pools.  Keep commercial development along the north side of Lancaster Avenue.

 

BTW, rename Lancaster Avenue and call it:Grand Avenue.

[JBB]

I have seen the plans of what the USPS is doing at the Post Office Building to bring the postal inspectors into the facility.  This was done through Historic Fort Worth, Inc. being a partner with the National Trust for Historic Preservation and with the Texas Historical Commission.  The renovation drawings show that the inspector's offices and functions will make the building occupied.  I would guess the remainder of the space would be used for future departmental expansions.

 

A big part of me feels like the USPS did the city a huge solid by taking the property off of the market.  Renovating it for use as a city hall with council chambers would have been an insanely expensive vanity project that would have done very little to solve the city's space problem downtown.

[Austin55]

It seems fairly evident to me and may be some others that the modern attempts to replicate these magnificent WPA monuments fail miserably.  I believe that the existing vista of these structures should not be sacrificed for commercialization.

 

The best use of the space is a public plaza like Sundance Square.  Include water fountains and splash pools.  Keep commercial development along the north side of Lancaster Avenue.

 

BTW, rename Lancaster Avenue and call it:Grand Avenue.

 

 

I think the reason a large public park or plaza would not be to successful here is the size. The total size of the parking lots+ Al Hayne is around 5 acres. Sundance is about 1.3. Sundance is largely successful due to its intimate nature. Add to that nearby Hyde, Burnett, and Worth parks are already not to active, I don't imagine adding another of such size would improve the situation in those. Another thing about it is you'd need to have roads crisscrossing through the park to access the residential garage, as well as serve as fire lanes. 

 

In my vision the buildings create 2 small plazas, and help to improve Al Hayne. The buildings retail would help draw people into these areas. They wouldn't obstruct many views, they'd be short enough to not get in residents ways, and a clear view of T&P would still exist from Lancaster (or Grand). The buildings would be 2 or 3 floors, so by nature they wouldn't be as grand as others on the street. Maybe make them look like something from this thread.

 

Ocourse, it doesn't make a difference cause it's no more than an idea. But curious to hear what you think. Perhaps a park in Similar Size to Klyde Warren could be done as well.

 

 

 

A big part of me feels like the USPS did the city a huge solid by taking the property off of the market.  Renovating it for use as a city hall with council chambers would have been an insanely expensive vanity project that would have done very little to solve the city's space problem downtown.

 

 

I agree with that for sure. 

[Fort Worthology]

Lancaster desperately needs more/better activation, especially there at the T&P.  Making all of that a giant open space just to "preserve views" (such an anti-urban idea in 99% of cases where it's suggested) would be a giant missed opportunity.

[renamerusk]

When the lights turn green, they make tracks:

 

Green means 'go', baby by dangr.dave, on Flickr

Bigger: http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/

 

 

It's just like a walk in the park by dangr.dave, on Flickr

 

 

Lancaster desperately needs more/better activation, especially there at the T&P.  Making all of that a giant open space just to "preserve views" (such an anti-urban idea in 99% of cases where it's suggested) would be a giant missed opportunity.

 

But of course, this is not to mention all the other "giant missed opportunities' in downtown desperately needing more/better activation .

 

I think letting these pictures (vistas) speak for themselves is all you need to know about why small pockets of green space are a valuable piece in an urban setting and will make much more sense for this particular parcel of downtown land.   There is adequate space for development along the north side of the avenue. 

 

You will not go wrong with fountain/pool, trees and vegetation instead of yet another lame attempt to match the T&P and the USPS buildings.

[RD Milhollin]

 

In my vision the buildings create 2 small plazas, and help to improve Al Hayne. The buildings retail would help draw people into these areas. They wouldn't obstruct many views, they'd be short enough to not get in residents ways, and a clear view of T&P would still exist from Lancaster (or Grand). The buildings would be 2 or 3 floors, so by nature they wouldn't be as grand as others on the street. Maybe make them look like something from this thread.

 

 

Great thread of modern buildings built in traditional styles. The flanking buildings at the Chapman Cultural Center in Spartansburg might be a good model to work off of as far as scale, but it would be cool to "quote" some of the Art Deco architectural flourishes from the T&P Building; seeing how tastefully that sort of thing has been done in other buildings from that website gives me encouragement that it can be done... need the right architect.

 

Interesting and coincidental that the set of photos following the Chapman Center looked surprisingly familiar.

[renamerusk]

Former City Councilman Steve Murrin will be asking for a postponement of the vote for the Stockyards plan.  The reason for this request is that the developers have not guaranteed they will protect the historical, architectural, and cultural portions of the Stockyards.  The area is on the National Register of Historic Places, but it is not a locally designated historic district.  Therefore; these buildings are not legally protected against demolition.

 

Here is a link to the article in the Business Press: http://fwbusinesspre...pment-plan.aspx

 

 

 

 

In my vision the buildings create 2 small plazas, and help to improve Al Hayne. The buildings retail would help draw people into these areas. They wouldn't obstruct many views, they'd be short enough to not get in residents ways, and a clear view of T&P would still exist from Lancaster (or Grand). The buildings would be 2 or 3 floors, so by nature they wouldn't be as grand as others on the street. Maybe make them look like something from this thread.

 

 

Great thread of modern buildings built in traditional styles. The flanking buildings at the Chapman Cultural Center in Spartansburg might be a good model to work off of as far as scale, but it would be cool to "quote"some of the Art Deco architectural flourishes from the T&P Building; seeing how tastefully that sort of thing has been done in other buildings from that website give me encouragement that it can be done... need the right architect.

 

Interesting and coincidental that the set of photos following the Chapman Center looked surprisingly familiar.

 

 

At some point in this discussion, it may become necessary to remind all of those who might be in favor of tinkering with the tenured integrity of the Lancaster Art Deco District of the city's recent experience with proposed development in the Stockyards. 

 

These three buildings - T&P, USPS and Warehouse - are very special to Fort Worth. I can not find anything to be encouraged about if we are left to expect that a developer can be found who may be willing to build something worthy of its immediate neighbors. Good luck with finding such a developer easily, and remember, Mr. Bass is a rarity.  Unless there is strong opposition, a developer could be free to build a garage and retail on the site as one sees near a Walmart.  Wishing for a worthy development is taking a real and unnecessary risk .

 

With the abundance of land readily available for development on the north side of the avenue, why stir what shall certainly become a contentious fight over the development of this particular parcel. 

 

The owner of the T&P building can spare the community a lot of acrimony; and at the same time,  further enhance the community by designating this unique parcel of land as a public space in whatever form that that might take.

[Austin55]

I don't think Hyde Park and T&P's lot are comparable, there was simply a lack of room at Hyde. 

 

It's also my understanding that the Post Office, not T&P, owns the lot itself. Anything would be better than a parking garage. 

 

But, as I've mentioned, this is all just fantasy, however, over the past few days, this has appeared in the lot. 

 

[JBB]

It's been there a lot longer than a few days.  It was there back around Thanksgiving when I drove through and dropped something in the mail.  Looks like it's either for work on the post office or the warehouse in between the post office and T/P.

[John T Roberts]

I could be wrong, but I think it is for the renovation work inside the main post office to bring all of the postal inspectors into the building.

[johnfwd]

I could be wrong, but I think it is for the renovation work inside the main post office to bring all of the postal inspectors into the building.

Post office?  I thought that the adjacent elongated structure was part of the old T&P railroad terminal (which I went into in order to take a train to Philadelphia as a tot with my parents a long, long time ago).

[John T Roberts]

The detailing on that part of the building certainly matches the T&P Terminal, but I also think that part of the property is either owned or leased by the Post Office. If that is the case, then that is the only place they could set up a contractor's staging area that would not impact daily operations.

[renamerusk]

The T&P Station and the Post Office on Lancaster.  Taken yesterday morning:

 

Mornings like this by dangr.dave, on Flickr

 

Thank you for this beautiful capturing, Dave.  This is just furthering the case that any tinkering (development) within this neighborhood should be taken with the greatest of care.  Seeing that it is not broken, there is little need to fix it.

[BlueMound]

Any idea about the contruction that's happening on the T&P/Post Office parking lot?

[Doohickie]

Nope. 

 

I did talk to Nate who owns the T&P Tavern.  He said the vendor operating the parking lot has gotten weird again and T&P Tavern parking is not allowed in the lot; people either have to park on the street or in the lot on the south side of the building off Vickery.  He said this directly affects his business.

[Austin55]

Doesn't the Post Office actually own the land?

[Jeriat]

Small question, Austin... do you still have that .skp file?