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Stockyards New Development Historic District

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#151 John T Roberts

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 07:43 PM

Here's a link to the actual National Historic Preservation Act of 1966:

 

http://www.nps.gov/h...aw/nhpa1966.htm

 

This has actually been posted before on this forum.  For a more condensed summary of the act, you might visit Wikipedia at:

 

https://en.wikipedia...ion_Act_of_1966



#152 Austin55

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:00 PM

Even though it provides no physical protections, the awareness is a nice thing to have. The article has been shared a lot on Facebook and other social media and a lot of folks are chimming in thoughts about it. 



#153 John T Roberts

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Posted 24 June 2015 - 09:48 PM

That is good if it can generate discussion. 



#154 renamerusk

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 10:18 AM

That is good if it can generate discussion. 

 

 FWB sets out to provide a clear narrative to the hotly debated issue of future development and preservation in the Stock Yards.

 

Just as troubling to me is Mayor Price whose stewardship of the city's massively important icons (Stock Yards, Water Gardens)  has increasingly seems to be allowing changes to be made counter to the original character of these sites for the sake of a greater disney-fication and commercialization of the city's unique treasures. 

 

I find the use of "foolish" an apt description of what is going on.

 

http://www.fortworth...b767707dfc.html



#155 John T Roberts

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Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:57 PM

Although they jumped in with their story quite late, the Fort Worth Business article might be the best one yet on the Stock Yards.  Rename, I think you nailed it with your analysis of the situation.



#156 Volare

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:02 AM

....

 

Just as troubling to me is Mayor Price whose stewardship of the city's massively important icons (Stock Yards, Water Gardens) ...

 

 

Has there been a change at the Water Gardens?

(Sorry for the branch off the thread)



#157 Fort Worthology

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:42 AM

 

Has there been a change at the Water Gardens?

(Sorry for the branch off the thread)

 

 

Only the opening up of the Lancaster wall and the potential addition of a small cafe spot on Lancaster (which I'd say is not as likely as the wall opening, but being considered).



#158 Volare

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 11:12 AM

 

 

Has there been a change at the Water Gardens?

(Sorry for the branch off the thread)

 

 

Only the opening up of the Lancaster wall ..

 

But that's only been talked about right? Nothing has been done yet? Or did I miss some bulldozing.



#159 John T Roberts

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 12:23 PM

Nothing has been physically done to the Water Gardens, yet. 

 

It appears that this thread is getting derailed to discuss another project.  If you wish to discuss the Water Gardens, there is an appropriate thread for it.  Please keep this discussion to the Stockyards.



#160 johnfwd

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 06:13 AM

Found this rather scathing editorial in the FWBP, denouncing the national historical preservation people.

 

 

http://www.fortworth...fb2b017147.html



#161 renamerusk

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 07:05 AM

....... rather scathing editorial...................

 

I find the use of the term "Do gooder" off putting and a sure way to identify a person who may have suspect motives.  See that is just it - one has to get over what will be a litany of impassioned editorials (opinions) and settled upon what your gut is telling you.  One thing seems to be certain, if the developers screw up, "humpty dumpty style", the Stock Yards will not be able to be put back together again.

 

The FWBP editorial is a workpiece of petulance.

 

Presumably, there will be impassioned editorals for the other side that are of more reason.



#162 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:05 AM

After the release of the National Trust's Most Endangered List, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram also issued an editorial.  Below is the link:

 

http://www.star-tele...le25443343.html



#163 renamerusk

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:16 AM

.... the Fort Worth Star-Telegram also issued an editorial....

 

Written with somewhat more reason and markedly with far less offensiveness.



#164 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:18 AM

The Star-Telegram Editorial that was written in May when Historic Fort Worth, Inc. placed the area on their Most Endangered List was pretty scathing. 



#165 youngalum

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 09:56 AM

Ha Ha

 

FWBP hit a home on this issue.  There are some forces in this city who want nothing more than to preserve the status quo in the Stockyards.



#166 pelligrini

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:38 AM

I find the FWBP editorial a swing and a miss; full of inflammatory language backed with rather weak arguments.

 

I do welcome the redevelopment of the stockyards, but it needs to be done thoughtfully and carefully. Balancing property owners rights and the greater public interest of the historical area will not be easy.


Erik France


#167 JBB

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:49 AM

full of inflammatory language backed with rather weak arguments.


Like this:

The preservation trust’s criticism of the Hickman-Majestic project was issued in conjunction with the release of the group’s annual list of Most Endangered Historic Places – a list that also included the Grand Canyon, Little Havana in Miami, Fla., the Old U.S. Mint in San Francisco and a structure in West Hollywood, Calif., once called The Factory and later known as Studio One – a gay disco reportedly frequented by the Hollywood in-crowd.


Just letting you know that if you favor preserving history in the Stockyards, you just might be aligning yourself with a leftist agenda.

#168 pelligrini

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:05 AM

This press release from the National Trust is much better than the one line that seems to be often quoted.

 

http://www.preservat...ml#.VZLJm-nbKUk


Erik France


#169 Doohickie

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 11:24 AM

Just letting you know that if you favor preserving history in the Stockyards, you just might be aligning yourself with a leftist agenda.


Is that an issue?
My blog: Doohickie

#170 JBB

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:08 PM

I suppose that depends on your political leanings, but my point was that the irrelevant bolded phrase was thrown in as a subtle way of letting the more-than-likely conservative stakeholders behind Stockyards preservation who they may be aligned with.

#171 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 12:37 PM

Youngalum, the offer is still standing to provide you a personalized tour of the Stock Yards. 



#172 johnfwd

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 01:19 PM

I've been trying to think of an historic district comparable to the Stockyards.  Not Frontier City or Silver Dollar City, both of which are more amusement park than historic district.  What comes closest in my mind is the French Quarter in New Orleans.  Most of us have probably been there, at least some time in our lives.  A photo below on Wikipedia.  The French Quarter is a national historic landmark, which I guess is a much stronger designation than that given the Stockyards.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia...Quarter2011.jpg

 

 

New Orleans residents decided long ago that the French Quarter is sacrosanct and shouldn't be compromised.

 

Point I'd like to make is that Fort Worth needs to decide, for good and all, what the Stockyards means to us and, if it means the late 19th Century, then stick with that.  Or, if not, then old buildings are going to be replaced with new ones a la the 21st Century.  But you can't have it both ways, in my opinion.  If you do, you will eventually be left with a diffused area.  Diffusion internally by gentrification, or being blended into the eventual commercialization from Trinity Uptown on the south end and further economic development on the north end.



#173 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 02:11 PM

A National Historic Landmark is the highest level of designation on the national level.  The building, structure, or area must have national importance. There are none in Tarrant County.

 

I think you can have it both ways in the Stock Yards.  You have several distinct areas.  The first area is the cleared and partially demolished meatpacking plant sites.  This area is physically higher in elevation and offers a chance for new development that should respect the older parts of the district.  In the center, you have the monumental buildings that are all over 100 year old.  The Exchange Building, the Coliseum, The Mule Barns, and Stockyards Station are all in this area.  Most of these buildings are locally designated and they are protected from demolition.  However, there is some vacant land that is adjacent and new buildings should be of the same scale and also compatible.  Within this area are the areas used for support of the rodeos held at the Coliseum on the weekends and the last remaining portions of the cattle pens.  Also, within this area are the Auction House and the Scale House, both used in the history of the cattle auctions and display of the cattle.  The Scale House is protected by a deed restriction or some kind of temporary designation until 2029.  Careful new construction could work in this area.  Then there is the commercial area that grew up in support of the meatpacking plants around the intersection of Main and Exchange.  This area is still within the National Register Historic District, but most of the buildings are only designated Demolition Delay.  I believe the only City of Fort Worth Historic and Cultural Landmark on that side of Main Street is the Los Vaqueros Mexican Restaurant.  There are also several vacant lots sitting between existing historic buildings.  For the most part, this area is fully intact with buildings of about 100 years in age.  Why not protect what we have standing, and then allow new infill construction that is very respectful of those neighboring buildings and is fully compatible with Historic District Guidelines?



#174 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 02:14 PM

The Top 10 Myths about Historic Preservation:

 

http://www.preservat...p Ten Myths.pdf



#175 John T Roberts

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 08:54 PM

There is also another misconception here.  None of the preservationists that I know ever said they were against development.  Most have said they only want the new development to be compatible with the existing buildings and character of the area. 



#176 Jeriat

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 10:00 PM

You can have BOTH the 19th century and modern day developments co-exist within the Stockyards. You just need to know where to keep the old (which should be most of that area) and where to build to the future. 


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#177 johnfwd

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 05:44 AM

I hope y'all are right, in the long run.



#178 renamerusk

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 06:26 AM

You can have BOTH the 19th century and modern day developments co-exist within the Stockyards. You just need to know where to keep the old (which should be most of that area) and where to build to the future. 

 

Maybe; but there is no guarantee that that will happen unless Fort Worth forces it.

 

The Stockyards Event Center and other recent development designed as early 20th Century along Marine Creek/Main Street  do not seem to fit in as well as they were designed to be; and too, there are the Domino Pizza and The Sonic buildings that are stark reminders of the need to have some design form guidelines.  There is concern that franchise developments like the later will seek to be ever closer, if not actually within, to the core of the Stockyards, signage included.

 

A earlier series of comments posted suggested that the Stockyards is in badly needed change -

 

"What I don't appreciate is hysterical folks on those groups who see any old dilapidated building as the holy grail that must not be touched or torn down--as it decays into oblivion over the merits of a ornate part of the building as if the only thing that matters......What is being proposed is a huge project that will save the stockyards and make it even more valuable to the city. ....  When in reality it is just an old worn down building that if it was so valuable it would have already been refurbished..... Progress and change is coming ......it is just inevitable".  Youngalum #126

 

I am not certain that those sets of viewpoint are entirely correct.

 

I assume that it is too late to ask this question, but what is exactly wrong with the Stockyards. It seems to be a place that has always generated its own synenergy for being simply what it is. Is it crucial to the survival of the Stockyards that it be juiced up and why? If massive development does not occur, will the Stockyards disappear?


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#179 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 10:17 AM

All of the newspapers have been telling the preservation groups to butt out of the issue.  Here is my simplest response on what I don't want to have happen, and I'm going to use the Stock Yards as an example.  One of the worst examples of new construction next to historic construction is the former Wells Fargo Bank.  It's a gigantic windowless triangle, which absolutely relates to nothing.  The only thing that it has that comes close to the other surrounding buildings is the brick and the red clay tile roof.

 

By the way, if you subscribe to the philosophy that "all development is good development", then this building is great!



#180 Fire-Eater

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 12:07 PM

It is definitely time for the City Council to designate the Stock Yards as a local historic district with STRICT development controls and building restrictions for historic preservation.  This is a no brainer.  Cities like New Orleans and Charleston began setting the standard back in the 1930s.  Showcase American cities such as San Francisco, Savannah, New Orleans and Charleston make millions a year off of preserving their architectural legacy and the resulting tourism.

 

Heck, I bet fake cities like Southlake have stronger development controls!!!!

 

With all due respect to "private property rights" and the desires of the landowners, if stakeholders don't like it, they are free to sell and get out.  The Stock Yards is NO PLACE for people to "do as they please" with their historic buildings.  You want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg?  Then give developers a free hand with the Stock Yards -- you'll end up with a cross between the set of "Gunsmoke" and Frontierland at Disneyland.  ONLY with strict controls would you ever dare to let in the casinos -- otherwise you'll be looking at cheap and tawdry pseud-"historic" buildings.  Maybe they could put in one of those crappy looking "riverboat" casinos (a la Shreveport or Vicksburg) on Marine Creek.

 

CONTROL it or LOSE it.

 

 

 

tourism


WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#181 Fire-Eater

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 01:17 PM

There is also another misconception here.  None of the preservationists that I know ever said they were against development.  Most have said they only want the new development to be compatible with the existing buildings and character of the area. 

 

John is SO right!  I favor development, but not laissez-faire development.  New development doesn't have to LOOK historic.  It must reflect the scale, materials, and forms found in the historic district.  The only way to affect this is DESIGN CONTROL over new construction.  Also, any "restoration" work on historic buildings should be in keeping with the Standards established by the Department of the Interior for historic preservation.

 

Who is a "preservationist?"  Is there ANYONE in this forum who is against preserving the Stock Yards???


WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#182 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 09:26 PM

The FW Weekly responds to the Fort Worth Business Editorial.  Follow the link below:

 

http://www.fwweekly....rporate-lapdog/



#183 Jeriat

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Posted 01 July 2015 - 11:04 PM

All of the newspapers have been telling the preservation groups to butt out of the issue.  Here is my simplest response on what I don't want to have happen, and I'm going to use the Stock Yards as an example.  One of the worst examples of new construction next to historic construction is the former Wells Fargo Bank.  It's a gigantic windowless triangle, which absolutely relates to nothing.  The only thing that it has that comes close to the other surrounding buildings is the brick and the red clay tile roof.

 

 

Out of all the buildings in that area, that's the only one I would actually fully SUPPORT knocking down.

I don't even get the purpose of the design itself...


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#184 Volare

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:27 AM

I've been trying to think of an historic district comparable to the Stockyards...

 

I would nominate the Old Market in Omaha. Except that tOM is more directly comparible the Hell's Half Acre in Fort Worth. Which of course is no more because it was bulldozed to make way for a Convention Center. Which in and of itself is about to be bulldozed because it's such a piece of junk.

 

But please continue with the redevelopement of the Stock Yards, what could possibly go wrong.



#185 JBB

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 08:59 AM

I assume that it is too late to ask this question, but what is exactly wrong with the Stockyards.


I thought this was a great question when you posted it yesterday morning and I wanted to mull it over before I replied. Just my completely uneducated opinion: there's a ton of unrealized potential in the form of the large surface parking lots and the nearly vacant Swift/Armor land and no real plan to make certain that this property is developed in a way that complements and coexists with the still-standing historic buildings. The bigger problem is that the city council sees that as a deterrent that will run off the developer rather than a means of holding the developer accountable.

#186 Fort Worthology

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 01:55 PM

John, that Static post isn't the only word on the subject from the Weekly.  Today, I have a piece examining the issue, calling for strong preservation and form-based zoning as being more important than just putting design & appearance standards in place.  You can read it here:

 

http://www.fwweekly....the-stockyards/



#187 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 03:45 PM

I just read it, and I want to say thank you for writing this piece.  Of course, some will say that Montgomery Plaza was a great way to save a derelict and ugly warehouse. 



#188 youngalum

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 04:02 PM

I'll say it was a solution to the issue of the building failing into disrepair.  Not the best solution, but without it all of the west 7th development likely would not exist.



#189 Austin55

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Posted 02 July 2015 - 10:24 PM

I've actually just returned from New Orleans. The French Quarter is really the draw there. Without it, it would be a fairly run of the mill American City. The quarter has much of the cities character and charm contained in it, much like FW's stockyards has. There is development that has occurred in the Quarter, but it's very carefully controlled and (mostly) well done. 

I'm very interested to see exactly what the Hickman group is proposing. I wish I had been able to attend last Friday's lunch and heard more discussion on the topic. 



#190 Fire-Eater

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 07:50 AM

I just read it, and I want to say thank you for writing this piece.  Of course, some will say that Montgomery Plaza was a great way to save a derelict and ugly warehouse

 

 

John, How much did the Fort Worth City Council give away for the Montgomery Plaza development?  If the building had been rehabilitated within federal standards for historic preservation, the investor could have received valuable investment tax credits.  Instead, the city council, as usual, gives the developer carte blanche and makes the taxpayers pay for it.  The city council doesn't believe holding developers to any standards -- other than money making -- and this is suspect, because the citizens always pay for it.  Usually in the back end.


WWSPFD?*

History is but the record of the public and official acts of human beings. It is our object, therefore, to humanize our history and deal with people past and present; people who ate and possibly drank; people who were born, flourished and died; not grave tragedians, posing perpetually for their photographs. ~Bill Nye, History of the United States

For me there is no greater subject than history. How a man can study it and not be forced to become a philosopher, I cannot tell. ~George E. Wilson




*What Would Susan Pringle Frost Do?

#191 John T Roberts

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Posted 06 July 2015 - 01:30 PM

Fire-Eater, have you searched the Montgomery Ward or Montgomery Plaza threads for the amount of money?  I can't remember off the top of my head. 

 

John Murrin Pritchett wrote an editorial back to the Star-Telegram that appeared in Sunday's printed edition.  I thought I would provide a link here, for those who have access to the online versions of the paper.

 

http://www.star-tele...le26197855.html



#192 JBB

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Posted 07 July 2015 - 02:34 PM

If the building had been rehabilitated within federal standards for historic preservation, the investor could have received valuable investment tax credits.  Instead, the city council, as usual, gives the developer carte blanche and makes the taxpayers pay for it.


Not that I disagree with your overriding message, but whether it's federal tax credits or local incentives, it's all coming out of the taxpayer's pocket. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

#193 John T Roberts

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Posted 08 July 2015 - 08:09 AM

JBB, in theory, it is six of one, and half a dozen of the other.  However, in reality, it costs each taxpayer more if the tax credits are provided by the City.  There are much fewer taxpayers in the City of Fort Worth than there are in the entire U.S.  Therefore, each person's share is higher. 



#194 John T Roberts

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Posted 09 July 2015 - 03:09 PM

The next Stock Yards Design District Task Force Meeting will be held on Tuesday, July 14, 2015 at 3:00 PM.  The location will be at the Coliseum, at 121 E. Exchange Avenue.  The public is welcome to attend.

 

Majestic is scheduled to reveal their plans for the new development.  This is probably a meeting that everyone should attend, if at all possible.



#195 RD Milhollin

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Posted 13 July 2015 - 09:58 AM

Longtime Fort Worth neighborhood activist Libby Willis weighs in on the FWB editorial belittling the NTHP "Most Endangered Places" designation for the historical Stockyards:

 

http://www.fortworth...6e06a031e6.html



#196 John T Roberts

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 06:59 AM

Thanks for posting the rebuttal from Libby Willis.  I just wanted to post this as a reminder.  The Stockyards Design Task Force Meeting is today at 3:00 PM at the Coliseum.  Supposedly, the meeting is inside the arena.  Majestic is scheduled to unveil their plans.  Mayor Price may also be there.  The news media is picking up on this story and the presentation today.  I would highly suggest attendance, if you can make it.  I realize this is a bad time for people who work (like me).  However, I have scheduled the time off so I can attend.



#197 JBB

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 08:34 AM

WFAA's preview of the meeting:

http://www.wfaa.com/...plans/30116939/

The Youtube video mentioned in the story. Took me awhile to find it and I'm not sure if I could have embedded it here.

https://youtu.be/pp817PhInOg

#198 John T Roberts

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 10:23 AM

JBB, thanks for posting the links, and I appreciate that Channel 8 has posted the agenda for today's meeting.  The public really needs to show up at this meeting.  There will be some night meetings, as well.  I posted those when I had their dates earlier in the thread. 



#199 Austin55

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 04:25 PM

Did anyone attend the meeting? Are any presentations available online? 

 

Edit- Here's one I've found

 

1-3615fdafac.jpg

http://www.wfaa.com/...plans/30116939/



#200 Austin55

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 05:08 PM

FW Bussiness Press was live tweeting from the event, you can follow that here. https://twitter.com/fwbusinesspress

 

 

 

Cavileer: "Not one of our buildings are going down."






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Stockyards, New Development, Historic District

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