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901 Commerce St. - High-rise Mixed Use

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#1 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 04:25 PM

The Downtown Design Review Board will be hearing a case on Thursday, September 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM for a case that requests approval of building massing and form for the construction of a mixed use, high-rise structure.  I'm guessing that this is the building that was mentioned in the Business Press Article a few weeks ago.



#2 Austin55

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 04:42 PM

Oh Snap! Really excited to hear this. Seems like the logical spot for  hotel, but I haven't heard any rumblings for that site. Interesting. 

 

Edit

 

Here's Southern Land companies page. Some nice looking developments.

 

http://southernland.com/



#3 JBB

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 04:51 PM

That's wonderful. This is the site where the smaller, latter years Greyhound terminal sat, right?

#4 Jeriat

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 04:53 PM

 This is the site where the smaller, latter years Greyhound terminal sat, right?

 

Huh?


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#5 Austin55

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 05:27 PM

2 other comments
 
Winfield Place currently occupies 1/4 the block. It was given a big restoration in the last few years so I doubt it will be demolished. I suspect the new building will follow be L shaped around the block (hopefully using Frost as an example).
 
Secondly, this is an XTO block. I never even heard it had sold, so it's surprising to see something pop up here so quickly. 

Edit - one more comment

A few days ago it was mentioned at a meeting a developer had approached DFWI about a 30 story residential building. Maybe this is it?

https://twitter.com/...352705935298561

#6 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 05:39 PM

Yes, after Greyhound left 1001 Commerce, they moved into the smaller Continental Trailways building, one block to the north.  This was a one story, brown brick structure.



#7 Jeriat

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 06:18 PM

Yes, after Greyhound left 1001 Commerce, they moved into the smaller Continental Trailways building, one block to the north.  This was a one story, brown brick structure.

 

I don't remember that at all. 

I still remember when the United Way was a Greyhound station, but not the block across from it. 


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#8 JBB

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 06:30 PM

I think it was on that block from the early 90s until the ITC opened. Maybe longer. I believe XTO considered a garage at that location at one point.

#9 Austin55

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 06:36 PM

I believe XTO considered a garage at that location at one point.


Yep. Post #25
http://www.fortworth...bc234055da8265c

#10 renamerusk

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 08:21 PM

Oh Snap! Really excited to hear this. Seems like the logical spot for  hotel, but I haven't heard any rumblings for that site. Interesting....Here's Southern Land companies page. Some nice looking developments.

 

 

....Winfield Place currently occupies 1/4 the block. It was given a big restoration in the last few years so I doubt it will be demolished. I suspect the new building will follow be L shaped around the block (hopefully using Frost as an example).

 

If the developer is, as you say, Southern Land, then take a look at their developing project in Philadelphia - 47 story residential/mixed use - http://1911walnut.com/

 

or in Dallas' Knox-Henderson Neighborhood - http://southernland....portfolio/knox/

 

 

That 1/4 Block locale will be a challenge.  Winfield Place has windows on the west . - https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/

 

Maybe a below ground L-shaped garage + 3 levels above retail/garage  and 27 floors of residential.  The Philadelphia Tower appears to wrap around an existing building. The caliber of design teams that Southern Land use makes me excited with anticipation; its going to be fun!

 

Aaaaaand, the CTD is oooooon! :P



#11 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 09:22 PM

Winfield Place was restored and is designated a City of Fort Worth Historic and Cultural Landmark.  It is not going anywhere and the new building will be built around it, similar to the way the Frost Tower was built around the old Star-Telegram addition. 

 

Winfield Place does have windows on the west side.  What will happen to them, I don't know.  It appears that building is on the property line and if a new building is built right next to them, then they will have to be closed in with fire rated construction.  Since this is an alteration to the facade, it will probably have to be heard by the Landmarks Commission.  Another option would be for the new high rise to set itself away from the wall of Winfield Place. 



#12 Austin55

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 10:29 PM

How far away does new construction have to be from the property line?

#13 John T Roberts

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Posted 01 September 2017 - 11:32 PM

By code and depending on the zoning, 0 inches.  Practically, if there is another building next to your new construction site, you will have to hold the building at least 1 inch away (or more) to allow for the differential of expansion between the two buildings.  That minimum clearance would be from the furthest point of the existing wall, if that wall is irregular.  Most older building walls that used to be a common party wall are not straight and plumb.  The piers of the new building also have to be offset away from the existing wall to keep construction and drilling away from the property line.  You don't want construction of your new building to harm your neighbor's property.



#14 rriojas71

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 01:18 PM

Wow. This is exciting news for sure. Can FW be in the middle (or maybe the beginning) of it's next tower boom? With Frost, River Tower, this mixed use building, Residennce Inn and the Hilton Canopy.... that would be 5 new towers over 20 stories in approximately a 4-5 years span. That is of course if the 2 proposed hotels come to fruition.

#15 renamerusk

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 02:33 PM

Wow. This is exciting news for sure. Can FW be in the middle (or maybe the beginning) of it's next tower boom? With Frost, River Tower, this mixed use building, Residennce Inn and the Hilton Canopy.... that would be 5 new towers over 20 stories in approximately a 4-5 years span. That is of course if the 2 proposed hotels come to fruition.

 

The beginning. :wub:



#16 rriojas71

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 03:22 PM

The Downtown Design Review Board will be hearing a case on Thursday, September 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM for a case that requests approval of building massing and form for the construction of a mixed use, high-rise structure.  I'm guessing that this is the building that was mentioned in the Business Press Article a few weeks ago.


John, what FWBP article was that?

#17 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 04:13 PM

I'm thinking it wasn't a FWBP article, but Sean Buckley's tweet. 



#18 Now in Denton

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 06:53 PM

I'm thinking it wasn't a FWBP article, but Sean Buckley's tweet. 

 

That is how I heard it. Fort Worth Urban tweet. Someone talk with Andy Taft of Downtown Fort Worth Inc. About building a 30 story residential. 



#19 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 08:20 PM

Thirty stories- that could exceed 400 feet.  :blink: 

 

Of course, it would be nice to have a new tallest building in this city. Burnett Plaza (567 feet) has been tallest long enough.


- Dylan


#20 Austin55

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 09:07 PM

Thirty stories- that could exceed 400 feet.  :blink:

 
I wouldn't expect quite that much. Residential buildings are usually 10-13 feet per level, so 330-390 is a likely range. I assume this building will have a parking podium as well which won't add much height. Austin's Seaholm Residences is 30 floors, parking podium with condos above and it is 341 ft. 

A more local example, River Tower is only two fewer floors than Frost tower, but a full 100 feet shorter. Also interestingly, Pier 1, 500 W 7th, and AT&T all have fewer floors than River Tower, but are all taller (You could also include the medical arts building in that if it were still standing). 



#21 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 09:36 PM

A 30-story condo tower that's shorter than Frost Tower would be a huge disappointment.


- Dylan


#22 rriojas71

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:33 PM

It is still a 300+ ft tower and it will fill in some gaps in the skyline and also extend it in a new direction. It will also add density and energy to the SE part of downtown.

Like everyone else I am wishing for a new tallest but this isn't the location for it. Also, seeing everyone's disappointment in a new mixed-use hi-rise tower coming to downtown is something I thought I'd never see on this forum. Lol

#23 Austin55

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 10:51 PM

A 30-story condo tower that's shorter than Frost Tower would be a huge disappointment.

 

Frost has a pretty big floor/height ratio, here's a few recent FW examples

 

City Place - 12

500 W7th - 13

777 - 13.1

Burnett - 13.175*

BOA - 14.4

Frost - 14.7

Carnegie - 14.75 

Chase - 16.25

 

*Minus 40 feet for the box on the roof

 

Here's some recent Southern Land Co residential tower developments

 

3601 market - 11.4

1911 Walnut - 12



#24 JBB

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Posted 02 September 2017 - 11:07 PM

No building proposal in Fort Worth taller than 3 stories is official until someone here finds a way to be disappointed by it. We've known about this one for a little over 24 hours and the only details we know are the location, the developer, and that it's mixed use. That has to be some kind of record.

#25 renamerusk

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Posted 03 September 2017 - 10:52 AM

A 30-story condo tower that's shorter than Frost Tower would be a huge disappointment.

 

I believe any disappointment will fade quickly; this project, like F.T.,  will add to the updating of a 80's skyline that has been stagnant too long.  It also adds to the vertical southern bookend of Downtown that Omni has created.



#26 Austin55

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 02:18 PM

The speculation has been fun, we still have 3 days before we'll know more on Thursday.



#27 JBB

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 02:24 PM

Do the agenda packets for the board get released in advance?

#28 renamerusk

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 02:27 PM

The speculation has been fun, we still have 3 days before we'll know more on Thursday.

 

....Oh what fun it is to ride on a 30-story sleigh...



#29 JBB

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 02:38 PM

I feel like, if there's a residential component to this project and I think that seems likely, that it will be rental as opposed to condos.  I can't wait to hear the details and see what it will look like.  If it's as tall as 30 stories, that will make a significant impact on the look of the skyline from the east and southeast.



#30 renamerusk

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 03:20 PM

I feel like, if there's a residential component to this project and I think that seems likely, that it will be rental as opposed to condos.....

 

The developer, Southern Land, multifamily projects do residential business primarily in the leasing and rental markets.  They have developed apartments in the Greater Dallas Market, mostly the 4-5 story variety.  Its encouraging that SL will be entering the Fort Worth Market, firstly in Downtown and secondly as a their second +15-story project in the Metroplex.

 

In Philadelphia, the public/private project has a commitment to provide both market and affordable units in a mix of condos and apartment. Expect a formula like the "Philadelphia Plan" to be apart of this development.  Overall, the "PP" is a good plan for Fort Worth; it is best for Downtown to be a place where a range of income levels can live there.



#31 rriojas71

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 07:36 PM

Oh Snap! Really excited to hear this. Seems like the logical spot for  hotel, but I haven't heard any rumblings for that site. Interesting. 
 
Edit
 
Here's Southern Land companies page. Some nice looking developments.
 
http://southernland.com/


Austin, how do you know Southern Land companies will be involved in this project?

#32 Austin55

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 07:51 PM

They are on the application on the agenda from the website

http://fortworthtexas.gov/boards/

#33 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 12:10 AM

My assumption of roughly 400 feet was based on the height of Frost Tower and the Omni condo tower.

 

Seems odd that the average floor height for Frost Tower is higher than usual considering almost half of the floors are dedicated to parking.

 

Perhaps "huge disappointment" is a huge exaggeration, but based on my original (perhaps unrealistic) assumption, a lower than expected height could be a minor let down. We'll see on Thursday.

 

I'm hoping for a seventh tower to join "the big six," but I'll probably be happy with infill as long as it looks nice and adds to the skyline.


- Dylan


#34 Austin55

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:02 AM

You never know! It could be bigger.

There's also a good chance the 30 story rumor and this DDRB item aren't related.

I'm going to try to make it to the meeting Thursday. Anyone else?

#35 PeopleAreStrange

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 01:19 AM

Unfortunately, no. I've got class on Thursday afternoon.

 

This would probably make for a great news package.


- Dylan


#36 Now in Denton

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 04:40 AM

I can still remember the front page story in the Star-Telegram. When XTO was going to build a 50 story mostly office tower mix use building. Twelve years ago. I was SO pumped and over the moon ! So a tweet has me cautiously looking at this rumor. Oh well nothing I can do about it. But be forever hopeful. :smwink:     



#37 rriojas71

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 11:29 AM

You never know! It could be bigger.
There's also a good chance the 30 story rumor and this DDRB item aren't related.
I'm going to try to make it to the meeting Thursday. Anyone else?


I was thinking the same thing.

Also of note is that the tweet said a "30" story tower... what if he used that as a generalization and an arbitrary number. Say for instance it is 32 floors or 38 floors... some people may call those 30 story towers.

#38 johnfwd

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 06:17 AM

I'll be excited more when it appears the promoters are seriously marketing this project.  Southern Land Co.'s portfolio is a heartening sign.  There is a bit of recent news on this developer on a Dallas project.  

 

http://dallas.towers...y-oliver-place/

 

How firm is a proposal at the stage of presenting an application to the Downtown Design Review Board? 



#39 renamerusk

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 10:02 AM

I'll be excited more when it appears the promoters are seriously marketing this project.....How firm is a proposal at the stage of presenting an application to the Downtown Design Review Board? 

 

You are putting the cart before the horse.

 

The DDRB is among the first stages in the process for the development of any project; probably proceeded by securing the land and financing.  Once approval is granted by DDRB, serious marketing can begin. I think we should all be excited that the project has reached this stage.

 

What worries me more is the objections that come "out of the blue" and that are inexplicable when ever outsiders show interest in Fort Worth.



#40 Austin55

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:33 PM

It will be 2 levels basement, ground fllor retail, 6 floors Garage above that. 31-32 floors total. Looks a lot like Frost.

#41 John T Roberts

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 02:40 PM

Do you have any more details?

#42 Austin55

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 03:12 PM

 
Things are very preliminary currently, only just started. The building will be L shaped wrapping around a the Purple Land Co building. 2 floors below grade parking. Along Commerce will be 6k sqft of retail and the main entrance of the building. Garages entrances in the alley going onto 8th and 9th. Electrical and Mechanical will be along Calhoun. It will be setback from Winfield Place by 6 feet I believe.  The Main Entrance for the residences faces the Northwest. Above that will be a 6 level garage. The tower rises along the Commerce Street side, with an amenity deck above the garage. Expected start time is 12 months. Overall, the building looks a *lot* like Frost Tower tower.  The height looked to be about the same as the uppermost setback on the SW facing side of 777 Main.
 
They expect a 12 month design and permit process, so nothing will get going for a while.


#43 Austin55

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 03:17 PM

They also mentioned they had been looking at FW for a long time, but had no luck acquiring land, so I would assume its rather scarce to find new stuff out here. A big upside to the XTO news, I guess.



#44 JBB

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 03:52 PM

Sounds great. Did they have any renderings yet? This is going to make a great impact on the skyline from the east/southeast.

#45 Austin55

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 04:44 PM

Sounds great. Did they have any renderings yet? This is going to make a great impact on the skyline from the east/southeast.

 

Only some grey massing models. I did my best to remember and recreate my own. This is pretty similar to what was shown

 

bRq5Cku.png

 

Like I mentioned, really similar to Frost, even has the outdoor amenity area with exposed columns. There was a pool to the east of that on the setback. An elevator overrun was at the north end of the building with mechanical screening.

 

Another thing, the typical floorplan shown had 12 units per floor. With 23 floors of 12 units, thats about 276 units total in the building.



#46 Austin55

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 04:55 PM

Sandra Baker has an article out. It has a few more details and qoutes from the meeting..

http://www.star-tele...e171893472.html



#47 rriojas71

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 05:21 PM

I was downtown today walking and I turned onto commerce and imagined a 30 story tower there and it is going to fill in the skyline in a much needed area of downtown. With the Hilton Annex Apartments & the Hampton Inn bookending this new tower and Tex Rail going online soon this area of downtown has the potential to create some good pedestrian energy.

Exciting

#48 Volare

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 06:21 PM

Sounds great. Did they have any renderings yet? This is going to make a great impact on the skyline from the east/southeast.

 

Should do a wonderful job blocking the concrete blob when viewed from the east side.



#49 renamerusk

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:39 PM

 

 
Things are very preliminary currently, only just started. The building will be L shaped wrapping around a the Purple Land Co building. 2 floors below grade parking. Along Commerce will be 6k sqft of retail and the main entrance of the building. Garages entrances in the alley going onto 8th and 9th. Electrical and Mechanical will be along Calhoun. It will be setback from Winfield Place by 6 feet I believe.  The Main Entrance for the residences faces the Northwest. Above that will be a 6 level garage. The tower rises along the Commerce Street side, with an amenity deck above the garage. Expected start time is 12 months. Overall, the building looks a *lot* like Frost Tower tower.  The height looked to be about the same as the uppermost setback on the SW facing side of 777 Main.
 
They expect a 12 month design and permit process, so nothing will get going for a while.

 

 

 

 

....Winfield Place currently occupies 1/4 the block. It was given a big restoration in the last few years so I doubt it will be demolished. I suspect the new building will follow be L shaped around the block (hopefully using Frost as an example).

 

That 1/4 Block locale will be a challenge.  Winfield Place has windows on the west . - https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/

 

Maybe a below ground L-shaped garage + 3 levels above retail/garage  and 27 floors of residential.  The Philadelphia Tower appears to wrap around an existing building. The caliber of design teams that Southern Land use makes me excited with anticipation; its going to be fun!

 

Look as though we called it.



#50 Now in Denton

Now in Denton

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 07:50 PM

We may have several overlapping big projects in this one area. With talk of another phase of the convention center. (Take down of the arena) A second Convention center hotel. And talk of straightening Commerce street. And now this high rise. That is a lot of dirt flying in one area. 







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