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Cultural District Roundabout


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#51 Jeriat

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Posted 18 February 2016 - 05:27 PM

So I posted this in another thread when someone mentioned tearing down the strip mall on 7th and University. 

 

25114331085_ecb278c07f_b.jpg

 

It's not exactly the best or most accurate design, but I think we could still have a roundabout on that intersection if we stretched it like a football and altered the roads entering in. I still feel there's some room left to make it happen. 

 

The red, obviously, is the actual roundabout. The blue are the other roads (with the existing Camp Bowie east to south on University exit staying intact. The green is the space between, of course, and I didn't add it in to the West 7th side between the strip mall and new Chu Eyeworks, but you get the idea. 

As for the yellow and orange, it's what I would think would be a hotel or residential building. Yellow being the building and orange being a 3 level garage. 

 

It would take time, major planing, and some headaches to build it, but I think it could benefit the area by easing time waiting in traffic. There could also be an opportunity for a monument or fountain in the middle and unique signage like what you see in Houston's Galleria Area, only it would point to the direction of each road. 

 

88330-san-francisco-houston-postoaksanfe


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#52 RD Milhollin

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 12:19 AM

One improvement I would suggest to help traffic flow would be a tunnel under the roundabout for University Drive to continue through north and south without having to go around the circle. Much of the University Drive traffic is trying to get from one side of town to another, and by having a through-route under the intersection it would make transiting north to south quick and painless while easing the amount of traffic actually going around the circle, making the intersection easier to navigate for everyone else. There is vacant land on either side of the intersection along University to allow this sort of descending ramp to be built while allowing the turn lanes as well.



#53 Jeriat

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 12:46 AM

Hmm... I never thought of that.

I guess, going south to north, start the tunnel before Lancaster and end after Wingate.


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#54 Russ Graham

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 09:33 AM

This is fairly common in the UAE- they love their (overengineered) roundabouts over there.

 

Here's an example:

 

https://goo.gl/maps/PtfSzNR1af12

 

Note that's about double the size of what would fit at University & 7th.



#55 renamerusk

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 06:59 PM

One improvement I would suggest to help traffic flow would be a tunnel under the roundabout for University Drive . There is vacant land on either side of the intersection along University to allow this sort of descending ramp to be built while allowing the turn lanes as well.

 

 Oops! :eek:

 

 So far, I am seeing a tunnel as a more  less practical solution than a roundabout. 



#56 Jeriat

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 02:15 PM


One improvement I would suggest to help traffic flow would be a tunnel under the roundabout for University Drive . There is vacant land on either side of the intersection along University to allow this sort of descending ramp to be built while allowing the turn lanes as well.

 
 So far, I am seeing a tunnel as a more practical solution than a roundabout.

Why not both...?

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#57 renamerusk

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 10:18 AM

Why not both...?

 

Having corrected my post#55 to indicate my actual preference, here are some reasons why I think the roundabout is the better of the the two options:

 

 #1 - building a surface roundabout should be cheaper than tunneling;

 

 #2 - implementation of a roundabout should be less disruptive than tunneling;

 

 #3 - a roundabout improves traffic flow along all the arteries while tunneling does not;

 

 #4 - a roundabout eliminates the need for signals; while again, tunneling does not.



#58 txbornviking

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 09:04 AM

Thinking about this location, and looking at traffic counts from the below link, I'm curious if they could simply the intersection by perhaps closing Bailey Ave south of W 6th.

 

While an estimated 20,000-25,000 vehicles per day travel N/S on University and E/W on W 7th/Camp Bowie it seems approx 5600 vehicles per day maybe traverse that section of Bailey. Not a small amount, but nothing that couldn't be accommodated by the neighboring capacity.

 

 

https://www.nctcog.o.../traffic-counts



#59 Doohickie

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:47 AM

Bailey is only part of the problem.  The real problem is the lack of circumference in the SW quadrant of the intersection.  Camp Bowie and 7th are at too tight of an angle, and the buildings on either side of W7th right by the intersection preclude moving things around to alleviate it.


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#60 txbornviking

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 01:07 PM

My thought isn't to make it a traffic circle, but if Bailey traffic were removed from the equation, for the most part it'd basically be a standard 4 way intersection at that point.The turns onto W 7th going west bound seem to be not much different that northbound university traffic turning west onto Camp Bowie or westbound W 7th traffic continuing onto Camp Bowie. (I hope that makes sense)



#61 Doohickie

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:44 PM

Yeah, makes sense.  A lot actually.  When I was looking at the intersection a while ago, I was thinking of how to cut W7th off, but it's awkward.  Ending Bailey at 6th though would work pretty good.  Northbound traffic to Bailey would have to make a left from University to 6th (making a left turn off a main road to a side street is generally easier than the other way around), and southbound would be an easy right hand turn from 6th to University.


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#62 Austin55

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:58 PM

Museum Place and the Post Office have big open spaces out front too - could connect them into one bigger parkspace.

#63 Jeriat

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 04:02 PM

My thought isn't to make it a traffic circle, but if Bailey traffic were removed from the equation, for the most part it'd basically be a standard 4 way intersection at that point.The turns onto W 7th going west bound seem to be not much different that northbound university traffic turning west onto Camp Bowie or westbound W 7th traffic continuing onto Camp Bowie. (I hope that makes sense)

 

. . . wow. Yeah, just cut Bailey off to where the post office is (right at the end of the drop-off lane) and make it a 4-way-ish intersection.

 

Simple and sensible. 


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#64 JBB

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 04:45 PM

Northbound traffic to Bailey would have to make a left from University to 6th (making a left turn off a main road to a side street is generally easier than the other way around)


There's a median there now blocking that turn, but it could easily be adapted for a one way turn lane.

#65 renamerusk

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 06:17 PM

Six point intersections are the result of poor design.  Installing a traffic calming and continuously flowing design without left turn lanes is the ultimate solution to an inefficient, environmentally harmful and automotive damaging intersection which becomes a nightmare anytime that there is a traffic signalling malfunction.

 

Everyday, tens of thousand vehicles merge at the I35-I30 interchange in a calm, constant stream of slowed traffic and moves through regularly without incident.  A skillfully designed intersection could surely handle a fraction of what is handled at the freeway merging interchange.

 

Post#51 is a good blueprint.



#66 rriojas71

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:13 AM

My thought isn't to make it a traffic circle, but if Bailey traffic were removed from the equation, for the most part it'd basically be a standard 4 way intersection at that point.The turns onto W 7th going west bound seem to be not much different that northbound university traffic turning west onto Camp Bowie or westbound W 7th traffic continuing onto Camp Bowie. (I hope that makes sense)


I’ve been thinking the same thing for a couple of years since moving back to FW and, like many others have noted, combine the open spaces on both sides of Bailey near the tornado public art into one big open plaza, with shaded seating and awesome landscaping to make it a true gateway on 7th into the cultural district.

#67 JBB

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:28 AM

I think this is a great idea, but with little regard to the fact that there's a ton of alternate street access, the neighbors in Monticello might have a fit.

#68 rriojas71

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 10:51 AM

They will have a fit for anything so that shouldn’t stop our city from striving to better itself

#69 renamerusk

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 11:22 AM

Museum Place and the Post Office have big open spaces out front too - could connect them into one bigger parkspace.

 

 

 

My thought isn't to make it a traffic circle, but if Bailey traffic were removed from the equation, for the most part it'd basically be a standard 4 way intersection at that point.The turns onto W 7th going west bound seem to be not much different that northbound university traffic turning west onto Camp Bowie or westbound W 7th traffic continuing onto Camp Bowie. (I hope that makes sense)


I’ve been thinking the same thing for a couple of years since moving back to FW and, like many others have noted, combine the open spaces on both sides of Bailey near the tornado public art into one big open plaza, with shaded seating and awesome landscaping to make it a true gateway on 7th into the cultural district.

 

 This intersection has outlived and outgrown its original layout.  The volume of traffic that flows through it will has reached its existing capacity.  Going forward for the next 50 years, the time is now to make the necessary changes that will facilitate a quiet and continuous flow of traffic. 

 

It may be uncomfortable to know and the least thing to consider while stopped and idling at this intersection, but here is what is now occurring at the intersection which should negate any dream of open space and benches here under the exiting circumstance

 

https://www.gogreenw...-your-car-idle/



#70 Russ Graham

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 04:06 PM

According to the NCTCOG link posted above, more people use Bailey than W7th west of the intersection.  What about closing 7th instead of Bailey?  Or making W 7th a one-way street west of the intersection?

 

Cars turning left from Northbound University onto 6th will face a monumental challenge - either you have 4 lanes of fastmoving south bound traffic to cross, or when the southbound traffic is stopped, there won't be any way through unless somebody kindly gives you a way through (across all 4 lanes - hah)

 

Monticello residents would (rightly in my opinion) oppose closing Bailey as the next-best route from W7th to White Settlement road is Monticello Ave which would undoubtedly see some fraction of those 5k cars / day in the proposed scenario...



#71 Doohickie

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 06:09 PM

There will be no roundabout.  If one was going to happen it would have happened before the buildings were built.  Now that they're there, it makes any circle difficult at best to accommodate.


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#72 Crestline

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Posted 11 September 2021 - 08:57 AM

Felt like sketching a four-way version of this intersection after reading the Norwood Street signalizing post. This version of the intersection makes the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments one-way-only exits from the intersection for one block.  Green arrows are entries to the intersection (four entries total), and red arrows are exits (six exits total):

 

aYFAylY.jpg

 

One-way exit traffic from the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments could be re-integrated into two-way traffic after one block via small traffic circles shown in yellow. Finally, current Norwood Street signalization is shown with a yellow cross.

 

I think this version I've sketched has been discussed a bit upthread in 2019; still had fun drawing it.  :swg:



#73 Nitixope

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Posted 11 September 2021 - 01:07 PM

With all the hotel, entertainment and dining options on both sides of University, I think the focus should be on safer pedestrian crossings.  Not sure a traffic circle accomplishes that.  Maybe incorporating some lighted pedestrian crossings and signaling?

 

Here's some examples:

led-enhanced-in-road-warning-light-cross

 

CASE-Lossew-safety-lighting-system-for-p



#74 JBB

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Posted 11 September 2021 - 01:37 PM

I worry that traffic circles at Univeristy-7th-Camp Bowie-Bailey and Camp Bowie-Montgomery-Lancaster would just kill any chance of pedestrians being able to get across.  I like the idea of creating one way exits.  I don't think think the smaller traffic circles are even necessary to get back to two way traffic.  I also think the idea of making those stretches of Bailey and 7th some sort of public plaza has some merit as well.



#75 Nitixope

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Posted 07 July 2023 - 11:25 AM

I just realized that there was a proposed 300' dia. traffic circle on W. 7th between Penn St and Van Zandt Viaduct.  This was proposed in 1929 around the time when the Bluebonnet Traffic Circle was being designed as a 500' dia. traffic circle.   



#76 txbornviking

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Posted 07 July 2023 - 02:16 PM

I just realized that there was a proposed 300' dia. traffic circle on W. 7th between Penn St and Van Zandt Viaduct.  This was proposed in 1929 around the time when the Bluebonnet Traffic Circle was being designed as a 500' dia. traffic circle.   

 

what is the diameter of the bluebonnet circle currently?



#77 JBB

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Posted 07 July 2023 - 02:40 PM

Measuring on Google Maps, it's around 467' from the outside curbs.



#78 Nitixope

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Posted 07 July 2023 - 03:02 PM

500.29' including ROW (east-to-west) / or whatever that property line is that would include the public sidewalk.

 

SEhCBhE.png

 

512' north-to-south:

zkvVsvl.png



#79 Doohickie

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Posted 16 November 2023 - 02:56 PM

Felt like sketching a four-way version of this intersection after reading the Norwood Street signalizing post. This version of the intersection makes the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments one-way-only exits from the intersection for one block.  Green arrows are entries to the intersection (four entries total), and red arrows are exits (six exits total):

 

aYFAylY.jpg

 

One-way exit traffic from the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments could be re-integrated into two-way traffic after one block via small traffic circles shown in yellow. Finally, current Norwood Street signalization is shown with a yellow cross.

 

I think this version I've sketched has been discussed a bit upthread in 2019; still had fun drawing it.  :swg:

As a point of practicality, where do the inbound W7th and Bailey traffic flows go?  In the case of Bailey a left turn onto (not very busy) 6th Street leads to a right turn onto University.  Not too bad really.  But coming down W7th, one would have to turn right onto Barden, then execute a left onto Camp Bowie.  This would be problematic and would likely necessitate a traffic light at Barden and Camp Bowie that would have to be synchronized somehow with the larger signal a block to the east.


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#80 Crestline

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Posted 18 November 2023 - 08:35 AM

 

Felt like sketching a four-way version of this intersection after reading the Norwood Street signalizing post. This version of the intersection makes the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments one-way-only exits from the intersection for one block.  Green arrows are entries to the intersection (four entries total), and red arrows are exits (six exits total):

 

...

 

One-way exit traffic from the 7th Street and Bailey Avenue western segments could be re-integrated into two-way traffic after one block via small traffic circles shown in yellow. Finally, current Norwood Street signalization is shown with a yellow cross.

 

I think this version I've sketched has been discussed a bit upthread in 2019; still had fun drawing it.  :swg:

As a point of practicality, where do the inbound W7th and Bailey traffic flows go?  In the case of Bailey a left turn onto (not very busy) 6th Street leads to a right turn onto University.  Not too bad really.  But coming down W7th, one would have to turn right onto Barden, then execute a left onto Camp Bowie.  This would be problematic and would likely necessitate a traffic light at Barden and Camp Bowie that would have to be synchronized somehow with the larger signal a block to the east.

 

My impractical, pro-pedestrian, anti-car answer would be: I don't care what happens to the inbound traffic on these two roads, at all. I think fixing this horrible six-way intersection is so important that side-effects from the fix don't matter. If the city implemented my four-way version of the intersection with no budget or plan for side-effects I'd cheer and clap. But, I know this answer is unpalatable to motorists so I'll try to do a bit better:

 

A practical solution for Bailey Avenue inbound traffic: As you point out, Bailey isn't very busy so side effects from its effective closure up at W 6th Street would be limited. However, even traffic diverting east onto 6th from Bailey intending to make a right to run south on University to the intersection could pile up around the post office in an ugly way. I think Bailey commuters would learn to route around this, though, by diverting east from Bailey sooner, such as on 5th, or Bristol, or (why not) even White Settlement. Importantly, I think the intersection of White Settlement and Bailey could be rebuilt to discourage the Bailey "shortcut" to the six-way intersection: currently it's kind of built for crazy high-speed right turns from White Settlement onto Bailey and I really don't know what traffic engineers were thinking when they designed this.

 

A practical solution for W 7th Street inbound traffic: As you say, this is harder. The city could rebuild Barden between W 7th and Camp Bowie and plan for left turns towards the intersection, but this sucks because it's just pushing the problem one block away and probably destroying some local parking in the process. Instead, W 7th eastbound commuters will just need to divert south to Camp Bowie earlier, at Van Cliburn or even Montgomery, and make their way up Camp Bowie toward the intersection from a distance. Accordingly, I think the W 7th eastbound commuters will thereby have the greatest change to their driving habits, but I think this is okay because it has the complementary benefit of making W 7th safer for pedestrians in general—this is a benefit in addition to the local improvements of making the four-way conversion. Bailey was already a low-traffic street, but W 7th will be converted to a low-traffic street by pushing commuter traffic to Camp Bowie (where it belongs). And low traffic is good for local business, sidewalk life, and all the other benefits of walkable urbanism.






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