24 replies to this topic

[jefffwd]

I spotted this post on the Dallas board... Posters like this make my blood boil!
Let me point out that his numbers are off a bit. Dallas' CBD has about 26,000,000 sf of office space while FW's CBD has about 9,000,000. It is worth noting that Dallas has a vacancy rate of about 26% while FW's is 8%. Also, asking rent in Dallas for class A space is about $21/sf while it is $27/sf in FW. And he cannot include the Uptown/Turtle Creek area as it is a separate submarket - but even if he did it still wouldn't add up to the 50,000,000 sf he is bragging about.

From the Dallas Forum:

The reason that people nationally and worldwide think of Dallas as THE main urban center in the region is because that happens to be based on facts.

Dallas is the central city and core to the region from which all else spins outward, and that means all of its suburbs including those in Tarrant County.

It is great that Tarrant County will be getting some exposure during the SuperBowl but that is not going to change the reality that the dynamic, burgeoning, and bustling urban center to the whole region is Downtown Dallas and the City of Dallas.

I used to live in Arlington for 17 years, after having been born and brought up in Dallas, but moved back to Dallas in 2001. I can speak from experience because I've lived in Tarrant County for a very long period of time and now in the City of Dallas for a decade.

There is no comparison in urban sophistication, big city amenities, wealth, upscale shopping, a true Downtown core and CBD with towering skyscrapers and with more under development as this is being written, an urban Arts District in Downtown Dallas that is the envy of the nation, a light and heavy rail mass transit system that is well developed and growing rapidly, etc., etc., etc.

Not to be critical but Downtown Ft. Worth looks like a small sleepy town in comparison! Downtown Ft. Worth has about 8,000,000 square feet of office space, that is it.

Downtown Dallas with its Uptown District have 50,000,000 square feet of office space - which is larger than ANY urban core in Texas, including Houston.

Once Ft. Worth has 50,000,000 square feet of office space in its core then maybe it would be time to talk about Ft. Worth and Tarrant County being considered as more than what it is now - a suburb of Dallas.

But bravo to Tarrant County for having these two sports networks broadcast from Tarrant for a few days in February. That is a very good thing!

[Art Cooler]

Pshaw, I say, pshaw.

I also grew up in Dallas. In my youth it had its great spots and not so hot places, just like it does now. It certainly did not have nearly as much traffic and there wasn't as much smog.

After 21 years of that the US Navy had me out in San Diego, CA. Growing up in Dallas, San Diego was culture shock. Architecturally and otherwise. But what a great city. There are probably folks in Los Angeles who consider San Diego to be a suburb, or even exurb. No way. San Diego is its own city and is not comparable to Los Angeles or environs.

Lived in CA 12 years and moved back to Plano. Lived there ten years and worked in north Dallas almost eight out of those ten. Then I got a job in Fort Worth five years ago.

I love it here!!! I have found myself much more satisfied with my daily life here in Fort Worth than my ten years in Plano, in spite of light rail that could whisk me downtown whenever I wanted (I lived within walking distance of the Parker Road Station). Dallas and Fort Worth are just like Los Angeles and San Diego. You can't compare them; they are NOT the same, nor will they be, nor SHOULD they be!

For those who love Dallas, more power to you! I still have a fond spot for it because it IS my home town, after all. It's just not the kind of city I want to live in, anymore. To each his or her own.

Bottom line: stop the useless comparisons. Dallas will be Dallas and Fort Worth will be Fort Worth. Hey, I work at the Amon Carter Museum, and even I will buy meals when over in Dallas vs. brown bagging it.

[hankjr]

Heck Fire and Dagnabbit, I say. No comparison between Panther City AKA Cowtown and Big D. Dallas more like up East which is what they want. We'uns here in Fort Worth is where the West Begins. Pshaw is good word too.

[cjyoung]

Sound like jealousy. Downtown Houston is bigger than downtown Dallas.

[Owen]

I like the idea of a fairly large downtown where you can walk one end to the other, and that's where Fort Worth has it all over those other, bigger Texas places. Back when I was a kid, Mom and I would go shopping there, and it was no trick at all to get off the bus, hit two or three stores, get back on the bus, and have a decent day of it.

[Doohickie]

Actually, I full agree with everything he says up to "It is great that Tarrant County will be getting some exposure during the SuperBowl but that is not going to change the reality that the dynamic, burgeoning, and bustling urban center to the whole region is Downtown Dallas and the City of Dallas."

He does not see Fort Worth's exposure during the Superbowl as especially significant, but I see it as a symbol of the ascendancy of Fort Worth. It is notable that people will be looking at Fort Worth without being in comparison to Dallas.

I also take issue with the fact hat he cites credentials of having lived in Arlington. Yes, Arlington is a suburb. I tend to think of it as a suburb of both Dallas and Fort Worth. But living in Arlington is not living in Fort Worth.

I think the comparison between Fort Worth and San Diego is an apt one.

One thing that I find interesting is if you look at census figures, Fort Worth is larger than several cities that are considered "big cities": Memphis, Boston, Baltimore, Seattle, Denver, Nashville, Milwaukee, Washington DC, Las Vegas, etc. The difference, though, is Fort Worth is not a "regional capital"; Dallas is. But there's one thing Dallas always forgets: Fort Worth is West Begins, which means that Dallas is Where the East Peters Out.

[JKC]

I spoke at the IDA convention here two weeks ago and gave two tours of Sundance and I noted that those folks, all of whom are keenly interested in downtowns, felt that there was little in Dallas to compare with Fort Worth. It was a real shot in the arm to hear the delegates from all over the US and Canada rave about FW.

I personally appreciate that FW has so many who are interested enough to care about their downtown.

[urbancowboy]

The Arlington comparison is funny. I grew up there and when I am out of town and am asked where i am from I tell them "Fort Worth" or the "Fort Worth Area". Sounds to me like a lot of Big D insecurity and boosterism. The area really was more so the Fort Worth side and the Dallas side until about 15 or so years ago. Arlington is most certainly a Fort Worth suburb, we get the Fort Worth paper, we have the Fort Worth area code, we have the 76--- in our zip codes, we got the "Greater Fort Worth" phone books, at least while growing up when we said I'm going Downtown we were talking about Fort Worth. Even more knit-picky when we go out of town to the north or south of the city along I-35 we take the west branch, lol. People have to recognize that not every metro region is comprised one core, ours has two, some have 3, so on and so forth. Fort Worth really does anchor the west side of the Metroplex, just because many boosters, newcomers, or outsiders don't get that doesn't make it any less true. I mean if one were to count our city, suburban, and exurban population we would probably be well over 2.5-3 million people on our side of the metro alone, making us the 3rd largest in the state and somewhere in the 20's nationally. Fort Worth isn't some sleep cowtown but it is a more laid back western metropolis.

[RenaissanceMan]

This is the response I generally use to illustrate the situation with folks who may be in need of a little perspective.

Take a look at the maps linked below and you’ll see exactly why people in Fort Worth get so frustrated at being looked upon as a “suburb” of Dallas and why that frustration is completely justified.


Fort Worth - Dallas

Washington D.C. - Baltimore


You’ll notice several things in common between the areas around Fort Worth and Dallas and around Washington D.C. and Baltimore. Both are major American cities and major economic centers, they both have very distinct cultures and personalities, and (and this is key) from downtown-to-downtown they are just about the same distance from one another. In fact, from the heart of Fort Worth to the heart of Dallas it is 33.7 miles; from the heart of Washington D.C. to the heart of Baltimore it is 39.5 miles.

Imagine what would happen if you suggested to someone from Washington D.C. that they were from “the Baltimore area” or vice versa?

The similarities would be even stronger if a city the size of Arlington sat in between Washington D.C. and Baltimore.

Oh, by the way… it might be worth pointing out that in terms of population, Fort Worth is larger than both Washington D.C. and Baltimore (727,577; 637,418; and 599,657 respectively).

Also might be pointing out to those who compare Fort Worth – Dallas to Minneapolis – St. Paul that Fort Worth is larger than both of the Twin Cities combined.

Looking back to the Washington D.C. and Baltimore comparison, with their different cultures, histories, economic conditions and industry mix, it’s easy to see how two relatively close major cities can be so distinct.

The biggest difference is that Fort Worth and Dallas are dropped in the wide-open expanses of Texas rather than along the East Coast. Imagine how perceptions of Washington D.C. and Baltimore might change if dropped down by Big Bend.

[lyleswk]

Have to add my little anecdote to this. A few years back when Central Market was about 1 or 2 years old, my family visited my no-reason-to-be-snobby in-laws in Houston. They live near Memorial for those familiar with Houston. They ranted one morning while cleaning up breakfast about this wonderful new super-market and about 2 hours later, we were all loaded up heading to the newly opened store. Thirty minutes later (sorry if there are any Houstonians, but I really dislike Houston), we roll into the parking lot and I very casually said something like "Oh, Central Market. Ours is only 5 minutes away." You could tell the look on their face was "What, that Cowtown has a Central Market!?". The trip through the store was nowhere near as fun as they wanted.

As far as which is best? To each their own. My "own" is Fort Worth.

[cberen1]

I've been a Ft. Worth guy for about 10 years. For the last year I've worked in Dallas, driving back and forth every day. Working in Dallas has given me a different perspective on Dallas. I'm very comfortable with the statement that Fort Worth is not a suburb of Dallas, mostly because I don't see many Fort Worth businesses that are reliant on Dallas' core of business or that came about as a result of Dallas' core of business. Fort Worth would have grown and prospered through the 20th century with or without Dallas.

I've often wondered if Dallas' identity will weaken over time as it's true suburds gain greater identity.

As a side note, I've decided to quit working in Dallas effective next week. Moving my hedge fund back to Fort Worth. There's too much pretend wealth in Dallas and the drive sucks. Give me some real people, thank you.

[tjh1]

One thing that I find interesting is if you look at census figures, Fort Worth is larger than several cities that are considered "big cities": Memphis, Boston, Baltimore, Seattle, Denver, Nashville, Milwaukee, Washington DC, Las Vegas, etc. The difference, though, is Fort Worth is not a "regional capital"; Dallas is. But there's one thing Dallas always forgets: Fort Worth is West Begins, which means that Dallas is Where the East Peters Out.

Fort Worth may have more people living within its city limits, but excluding Memphis, Nashville, & Las Vegas, all of those cities are "bigger" than Fort Worth. Fort Worth, along with many other southern & western cities (Dallas included) populations are as large as they are because they cover very large amounts of land area compared to their Northeastern & Midwestern counterparts. Fort Worth covers approximately 300 sq. miles of land area, whereas Boston contains just over 40. Philadelphia and Dallas have similar populations, but you could fit Philadelphia inside the city of Dallas 3 times. I don't mean to rant, but city populations only mean so much. San Jose, CA has a larger population than San Francisco, but the San Jose-San Francisco comparison is similar to that of Fort Worth-Dallas.

Fort Worth is by no means a "suburb of Dallas." The term "suburb" insinuates that Fort Worth is primarily a bedroom community for people that work in/near Dallas. While some people may fall into this description, they are a minority.

"Satellite city" may be a better description of Fort Worth in relation to Dallas. Other examples would be Oakland & San Jose to San Francisco, Wilmington to Philadelphia, Newark & Jersey City to NYC, Bridgeport & Stamford to NYC, Dayton to Cincinnati, Milwaukee to Chicago, Fort Lauderdale to Miami, St. Petersburg to Tampa, etc, etc, etc.

[ramjet]

Wow! I hesitated to respond to this thread because I'm so over the Dallas vs. Fort Worth thing. But can't help myself now. In my opinion, Fort Worth is neither a suburb or a satellite of Dallas. Fort Worth, and Tarrant County, are fabulous! Fort Worth is its own city, with its own identity, and its own history, and its own future. Dallas, to Fort Worth, is like Ross Perot's crazy aunt in the basement - you have to be nice 'cause it's a local relative, but she doesn't have to define you, 'cause she's crazy and she goes to Prestonwood and shops at Sam Moon. I'm waiting for the meteor (or foreclosure entity) than decimates Dallas County so that we can end this tiresome rivalry once and for all...

[David Love]

When someone states that Fort Worth is a suburb of Dallas, I'm okay with that for now, since it only serves to jog the memories of people that have never actually been to Fort Worth, possibly not even to Dallas, reminding them that Fort Worth is right next door to Dallas. Once they've visited Fort Worth they understand the layout.

How ESPN explains to the public where Fort Worth is, that's how we'll be known for at least another decade.

So if it's your job to explain to ESPN where Fort Worth is, what Fort Worth is, how would you define Fort Worth?

...is the name Dallas in your explanation?

[RenaissanceMan]

I had had trouble figuring out how to display the images in my earlier post... finally got it figured out.





From the heart of Fort Worth to the heart of Dallas it is 33.7 miles; from the heart of Washington D.C. to the heart of Baltimore it is 39.5 miles.

As you can with these images, the differences between the areas around Fort Worth - Dallas and Washington D.C. - Baltimore are not too dissimilar. The reason I like to point to this comparison is that I have seen no other example that brings out a better reaction by people who are not familiar (haven't ever been there or visited once briefly) with North Texas.

Again, imagine how people from Washington D.C. would react if you suggested they were actually from the Baltimore-area (or vice versa), imagine if a city the size of Arlington were dropped in midway between Washington D.C. and Baltimore, and imagine how perceptions of these two cities would change if dropped into the middle of Texas.

[Owen]

To use an astronomical analogy, These cities (Fort Worth, Dallas; Washington, Baltimore; San Francisco, Oakland) are members of a binary system. Astronomical binaries (two stars orbiting a common center of gravity) may be very close together or far apart, and each pair has its own peculiarities.

I grew up in Fort Worth, and was, for a time, a member of the Fort Worth Junior Astronomy Club.

[john3628]

To use an astronomical analogy, These cities (Fort Worth, Dallas; Washington, Baltimore; San Francisco, Oakland) are members of a binary system. Astronomical binaries (two stars orbiting a common center of gravity) may be very close together or far apart, and each pair has its own peculiarities.

I grew up in Fort Worth, and was, for a time, a member of the Fort Worth Junior Astronomy Club.

Hello folks I haven't posted on here in years but I just wanted to say that Dallas is crap and Chicago kicks its butt. I've lived most of my life in Ft. Worth and I agree we lack alot. One good thing though, is that we don't have alot of the GARBAGE that Dallas does. Unfortunately nothing will really change in this city until its leaders do something. Fort Worth is a city and not a suburb! Dallas is a piece of crap city that is getting old and not really producing anything new and good(especially in sports ) Eventually people are gonna watch a changed and guess what city that is. Fort Worth No.1!!!!

[Volare]

...
How ESPN explains to the public where Fort Worth is, that's how we'll be known for at least another decade.

So if it's your job to explain to ESPN where Fort Worth is, what Fort Worth is, how would you define Fort Worth?

...is the name Dallas in your explanation?

I think they did a good job when they were at TCU last year for College Gameday. I don't think I recall the word dallas anywhere in their explanations...

[David Love]

Watched a documentary today on the Science Channel called "Prehistoric Dallas" What I found nice about it was that it gave Fort Worth nearly equal time on the one hour segment. Can't remember the exact wording but it was something on the order of "...and for the other half of the story you have to go right next door where the Cowboy heritage is alive and thriving in Fort Worth." that's a rough paraphrase, but what was nice was they had paleontologists in the Stockyards explaining all the fossilized footprints along the Trinity and how they came to be. They even had a close aerial flyby of downtown Fort Worth with the Tower right in the center, was rather nice for a change.

[Volare]

A show on HDNet (owned by Mark Cuban apparently) called "Drinking Made Easy" recently made a stop in DFW. Unfortunately they decided to title the show "Drinking Made Easy: Dallas" The funny thing was they only visited one location in Dallas. 3 were in Fort Worth (which they barely mentioned), and one was in Waco. To top it all off, on the episode guide online, they had this gem:

"Fort Worth, a major suburb just to the west of Dallas, began..."

[tjh1]

A show on HDNet (owned by Mark Cuban apparently) called "Drinking Made Easy" recently made a stop in DFW. Unfortunately they decided to title the show "Drinking Made Easy: Dallas" The funny thing was they only visited one location in Dallas. 3 were in Fort Worth (which they barely mentioned), and one was in Waco. To top it all off, on the episode guide online, they had this gem:

"Fort Worth, a major suburb just to the west of Dallas, began..."

^^^^This is a perfect example why being a Fact Checker for a media source is a job that appeals to me.
This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine--yes Dallas may be the largest city in the metropolitan area, but that doesn't mean that every city within a 50 mile radius is a "suburb." There are absolutely zero (yes 0!) characteristics of Fort Worth that make it a "suburb of Dallas." I will once again point to other examples...Scarsdale, NY and Livingston, NJ are suburbs of NYC; Yonkers & Jersey City are not...Lower Merion Township, PA and Cherry Hill, NJ are suburbs of Philadelphia; Camden, NJ and Wilmington, DE are not...Hillsborough is a suburb of San Francisco; Oakland is not...Edina is a suburb of Minneapolis; St. Paul is not...Bloomfield Hills is a suburb of Detroit; Windsor, ON is not...Issaquah is a suburb of Seattle; Tacoma is not.

Sorry to showcase one of my many quirks, but I am a stickler for being politically correct when it comes to the City/Suburb dichotomy, haha.

[johnfwd]

I hope ESPN refrains from comments like "the Dallas area" during the Super Bowl. If the Dallas Cowboys are not the NFC champions, then it would only be fair to identify Arlington as the Super Bowl venue, because the stadium is located in Arlington. One way for Fort Worth to convey a national image as a city not a suburb is to obtain a major professional sports franchise (other than NASCAR). Oakland succeeded by getting the Raiders franchise, even though Oakland is only about 15 miles from San Franciso, home of the 49ers. No one is calling Oakland a suburb of San Franciso, are they?

[Owen]

It's hard to call Oakland a suburb of San Francisco with that bay between them. But Gertrude Stein may still have got it right, "There's no there there."

[JKC]

That is an interesting comment on the comparison with Baltimore and Washington. I managed Harborplace and The Gallery in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore for three years in the mid-90's and I don't ever remember anyone even asserting they were suburbs or connected in any way. Occasionally someone would mention the Balt, Washington , Columbia triangle. 295 is called the Baltimore - Washington Parkway. But it is very rural feeling between the two.

I spoke at ULI last month in DC and said that I was going to "run" up to Baltimore one evening and they looked at me like I had three heads. That just seemed like going way out of the way for an evening.

[Urbndwlr]

I was surprised to notice that San Jose, CA has very little independent identity. Its citizens seem to totally lack the type of civic spirit exhibited in Fort Worth when this subject arises. People in San Jose seem pretty unphased when people don't distinguish it from Santa Clara, Milpitas, or even SF. Perhaps it has to do with the fact that SJ is a very sprawling, low density town that has very little critical mass of culture and social network, rather is intertwined with the other towns that comprise the Silicon Valley (or the South Bay) - the two more widely recognized relevant "community" boundaries. There appear to be few if any really "nice" old neighborhoods where one might expect to find civic activists who have lovingly restored old houses. Instead, the really "nice" neighborhoods appear to be in nearby suburbs like Los Gatos, which has its own charming small downtown. In fact, the towns around there have great small downtowns that should serve as models for North Texas.

Check out Palo Alto, Cupertino, and Los Gatos downtowns for reference.

One thing that I find interesting is if you look at census figures, Fort Worth is larger than several cities that are considered "big cities": Memphis, Boston, Baltimore, Seattle, Denver, Nashville, Milwaukee, Washington DC, Las Vegas, etc. The difference, though, is Fort Worth is not a "regional capital"; Dallas is. But there's one thing Dallas always forgets: Fort Worth is West Begins, which means that Dallas is Where the East Peters Out.

Fort Worth may have more people living within its city limits, but excluding Memphis, Nashville, & Las Vegas, all of those cities are "bigger" than Fort Worth. Fort Worth, along with many other southern & western cities (Dallas included) populations are as large as they are because they cover very large amounts of land area compared to their Northeastern & Midwestern counterparts. Fort Worth covers approximately 300 sq. miles of land area, whereas Boston contains just over 40. Philadelphia and Dallas have similar populations, but you could fit Philadelphia inside the city of Dallas 3 times. I don't mean to rant, but city populations only mean so much. San Jose, CA has a larger population than San Francisco, but the San Jose-San Francisco comparison is similar to that of Fort Worth-Dallas.

Fort Worth is by no means a "suburb of Dallas." The term "suburb" insinuates that Fort Worth is primarily a bedroom community for people that work in/near Dallas. While some people may fall into this description, they are a minority.

"Satellite city" may be a better description of Fort Worth in relation to Dallas. Other examples would be Oakland & San Jose to San Francisco, Wilmington to Philadelphia, Newark & Jersey City to NYC, Bridgeport & Stamford to NYC, Dayton to Cincinnati, Milwaukee to Chicago, Fort Lauderdale to Miami, St. Petersburg to Tampa, etc, etc, etc.