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[jefffwd]

Sundance Team Begins Re-Merchandising Hunt
May 23, 2006
By Connie Gore

FORT WORTH-Taking advantage of a rare opportunity, Sundance Square's president is lobbying women's apparel retailers for six upcoming openings in the historically filled, 20-block walk of the Downtown. Whether the move-outs are tenant or owner driven, the door is now open to re-merchandising the city's centerpiece.
"We don't get that opportunity too often," Johnny Campbell, president of Sundance Square, tells GlobeSt.com from the floor of the International Council of Shopping Centers' spring convention in Las Vegas. He's not saying which retailers are packing their bags or why, but there is a sales performance bar that must be met to stay in the destination location. The gist of the decision is the Bass family and its team wants to add more top-draw shopping to a heavily weighted mix of entertainment and restaurant space.

Campbell says this year's ICSC pilgrimage is different because he has space to show to the crowd. The 20,000 sf will open up before the year ends: scattered sites ranging from 1,500 sf to 6,000 sf. "We are making a strategic shift," he says. "This year, we're on the hunt specifically for women's apparel retail."

Campbell says the ICSC network is paying particular attention to the rare openings in the 375,819 sf of street-level retail area, which already includes apparel retailers, Leddy's Ranch, Jos. A. Bank and Moonstruck. Operators of upscale boutiques and leading edge brands are high on the courtship list. "It's about the product and the merchandise," he says. "We learned how to filter through the years and look at the right names that are going to be successful. We need successes. It's been very well received." And, he says Moody's Investors Service's recent ranking of Fort Worth as the top commercial property market in the nation is stoking interest.

The Bass family began Sundance Square's revitalization in the late 1980s. Today, the streets produce not only some of the highest retail rents in the region, but reel in roughly 10 million visitors per year in a comfort-zone setting with a privately funded security force. Sundance Square has 20 AMC screens, 24 restaurants, three live theaters, Bass Performance Hall, two museums, a trio of art galleries, shops and boutiques, two residential towers--all tucked into a traditional downtown setting of office and hospitality space.

"We are prepared to make the right retailers offers they can't refuse," Campbell says in a press release. "When we started this project more than two decades ago, we had a vision to mold Sundance Square into an entertainment and restaurant destination and we made that happen. Now, our vision is to create a must-see shopping experience."

The sweet spot to the destination location is the owner has another 20 blocks of undeveloped space to tap if the right major anchor comes along. "We are always quietly talking about those 20 blocks," Campbell says.

[mosteijn]

The sweet spot to the destination location is the owner has another 20 blocks of undeveloped space to tap if the right major anchor comes along. "We are always quietly talking about those 20 blocks," Campbell says.

20 blocks??? Do the Basses own like all of downtown? Are these other 20 blocks E-W of Sundance, or south of there?

Interesting idea about the shopping. Given FW's pathetic lack of high-end shopping opportunities, the competition certainly won't be a drawback for anyone looking to get into the market. It all depends on the demand for high-end retail, and although I think there's plenty of it in FW, I know a bunch of people disagree. We'll just have to wait and see.

[John T Roberts]

The Bass Family owns quite a bit of downtown. These other 20 blocks are adjacent to Sundance Square, but they are scattered on all sides of the area, except directly north on Main Street. I would say that most of the land is to the east, northeast, and southeast of Sundance Square.

[Urbndwlr]

20,000 SF? I can't think of a tenant that size (a half block). Unless it is Reata or ....City Streets!!!! How about a new Caravan of Dreams in place of the dreaded City Streets?!?!?

[John T Roberts]

Urb, the article states that the spaces range from 1,500 up to 6,000 s.f. with the total of all of the spaces coming up for lease is 20,000 s.f.

[Sam Stone]

The sweet spot to the destination location is the owner has another 20 blocks of undeveloped space to tap if the right major anchor comes along. "We are always quietly talking about those 20 blocks," Campbell says.

20 blocks??? Do the Basses own like all of downtown? Are these other 20 blocks E-W of Sundance, or south of there?

Interesting idea about the shopping. Given FW's pathetic lack of high-end shopping opportunities, the competition certainly won't be a drawback for anyone looking to get into the market. It all depends on the demand for high-end retail, and although I think there's plenty of it in FW, I know a bunch of people disagree. We'll just have to wait and see.

I think when you add up all Bass and Sundance related properties it's more like 45 blocks.

[vjackson]

Fort Worth does have a lack of high-end or even a diverse mix of retailers. But considering DTFW's retail history, I just don't now if downtown is the place to start. If Sundance Square indeed gets 10 million visitors a years, why didn't places like Larry Shoes, Legacy Trading Company, or Pier One work? To me, these are places that are a perfect downtown fit. Even the Outlet mall got less traffic the longer it stayed open. And according to a manager at an Arlington store, the B&N bookstore in SS is considered to be low performing. I don't know how Jos. A Banks is doing, but that Leddy's store has been empty everytime I've gone there. FW has never been a shop-till-you-drop town, and by putting a performance demand on retailers, you'll only seem to be creating a revolving door of retail effect. Why not offer incentives and breaks to local retailers and maybe give them a chance to take off, and maybe then DTFW will see some diverse shopping opportunities that people can't find at the local strip mall near thier home.

[cjyoung]

FW has never been a shop-till-you-drop town, and by putting a performance demand on retailers, you'll only seem to be creating a revolving door of retail effect.

That's because the so-called 'cowboys and culture' crowd send there valets to Northpark, Highland Park Village and Dallas Galleria to do there shopping.

Why not offer incentives and breaks to local retailers and maybe give them a chance to take off, and maybe then DTFW will see some diverse shopping opportunities that people can't find at the local strip mall near thier home.

That would be great.

[FWillustrator]

...why didn't places like Larry Shoes, Legacy Trading Company, or Pier One work? To me, these are places that are a perfect downtown fit.

I image if they could have held out for the boom in dowtown residential, or the occupancy of the Tower, they would likely still be there. Didn't most of these places disapear before all the residential developments in and nearby DT?

[David Love]

20,000 SF? I can't think of a tenant that size (a half block). Unless it is Reata or ....City Streets!!!! How about a new Caravan of Dreams in place of the dreaded City Streets?!?!?

What is up with that place?

The primary summertime advantage they have is that it’s underground, literally, so they don’t have to spend much to keep it chilly. Seems like their target audience on the disco side of the place is “Bachelorette Parties” their play list is song for song from the top 40 requested songs DJs play at wedding receptions. Check out the flyer on the front door: For “Bachelorette Parties Call:” The other side of the place I haven’t a clue what their target audience is, don’t think they do either.

The primary turnoff for this place is the bouncer attitude towards single guys, it’s like they’re trying to start something, guess some patrons are rubbed the wrong way by it and wind up tasered on the floor by one of the half dozen off duty police officers, or so I’ve heard from a few that work there, I always leave with the impression they’re worried I’m might sneak out with an ashtray or something.

Colonel Klink whispers in his brick walky talky, “and that’s another thing, are they trying to be as conspicuous as possible or are they used as backup weapons? I mean Cowboy’s had ear bud head sets A DECADE ago,” covering his mouth with his free hand so other ash tray bandits can’t read their lips and discover they’re on to them, “suspect heading west towards egress!” Hans picks me up at the stairs, “Have suspect in sight, will keep safe distance and maintain suspicious scowl and offending stance until suspect is safely beyond CC perimeter.”

Most of the folks that work there are pretty agreeable though.

[Sam Stone]

Re: the Outlet Mall. This was a terrible idea from the start. Everything I've read says that you don't put discount/outlet stuff in downtowns. You're supposed to save that stuff for the boonies. The best stuff for downtowns is luxury and specialty retail first.

These things are also a matter of timing. I think in five years when there are more people living downtown home furnishing places might do very well. But nobody is going to get in their car, drive out of the suburbs, drive downtown, park in a garage and then lug a nightstand back to a parking garage. Nor are they going to do that for any item that's simpler to carry around in suburbia, including clothing. Until there is a true critical mass of residential downtown, they shouldn't try to duplicate the kind of merchandising found in suburbia. They would be much better served by landing either some truly unique and high profile retailers (Bergdorf, Armani, Tiffany, etc.) and/or some banal but basic services that can benefit current and prospective residents (dry cleaners, cel phone, pharmacy, etc.).

[vjackson]

...why didn't places like Larry Shoes, Legacy Trading Company, or Pier One work? To me, these are places that are a perfect downtown fit.

I image if they could have held out for the boom in dowtown residential, or the occupancy of the Tower, they would likely still be there. Didn't most of these places disapear before all the residential developments in and nearby DT?

That would be true, but DTFW doesn't nearly have the density for retail to survive on downtown residents alone. How many shoes can the reisidents of the tower buy?? Lots if not most of thier revenue is going to have to come from visitors to SS and downtown workers, which SS has always had. And obviously they have not been doing much shopping and unless there's retail that really is a major draw, they probably won't.

[FWillustrator]

Lots if not most of thier revenue is going to have to come from visitors to SS and downtown workers...

Let's not forget the eastide...my wife and I go to downtown frequently for dining and entertainment, and I think there are a growing number of people like us in our area. It takes us less than 5 minutes to get to Sundance Square, which is MUCH faster AND easier than any other retail/entertainment center around. If we could, we would likely shop there too. Of course, there is the possibility that Lancaster might someday host a better occupancy of quality retailers and services...but I won't hold my breath.

[vjackson]

^^^^
If I remember correctly, the Eastside is really lacking in retail and entertainment options. I never understood why that part of town is so neglected. Anyway, would you be willing to go downtown, if there were decent retail, restuarants and a movie theater near your home, especially if the stores were the same stores that were in your neighborhood? In Tarrant County, the suburbs have become better shopping destinations than FW. Beside's maybe for a show at the Bass is there really any reason for people from Arlington or Southlake/Colleyville/Grapevine to come to SS?? I've driven to Frisco for Ikea, because it's a big enought draw to do so, and as corporate as it might be, there's not one on every corner...yet. I have driven to FW to eat at Reatta a few times, but SS's dining choices are becoming more generic as they continue to court corporate chains. Which is why I like the idea of courting local businesses with incentives to move DT.

[safly]

[quote name='vjackson' date='May 24 2006, 03:13 PM' post='25953']
^^^^
If I remember correctly, the Eastside is really lacking in retail and entertainment options. I never understood why that part of town is so neglected. Anyway, would you be willing to go downtown, if there were decent retail, restuarants and a movie theater near your home, especially if the stores were the same stores that were in your neighborhood? In Tarrant County, the suburbs have become better shopping destinations than FW. Beside's maybe for a show at the Bass is there really any reason for people from Arlington or Southlake/Colleyville/Grapevine to come to SS?? I've driven to Frisco for Ikea, because it's a big enought draw to do so, and as corporate as it might be, there's not one on every corner...yet. I have driven to FW to eat at Reatta a few times, but SS's dining choices are becoming more generic as they continue to court corporate chains. Which is why I like the idea of courting local businesses with incentives to move DT.
[/quote]


"DING!"

[/quote]I never understood why that part of town is so neglected[quote]


Maybe because, "George Bush don't care about....the EASTSIDE!" -Kanye W.

Maybe that has something to do with it.
Just throwing it out there. May not be true. I for one LOVE the EASTside. Great food, especially this CATFISH FRY of a place ran by Asians. AUTHENTIC aromas! Great mixture of diversity. And very wholesome church kinda feeling too. Neato park out there I drove through the other day trying to detour 287 route. Kinda near TWU.

Final thought for me on this topic.
FW IS A CHEAP DESTINATION!
Think about how that mentality and IMAGE courts certain tourism demographs, and why a Tiffany's would be a HORRIBLE mistake in DTFW.

Good LUCK SS!

[cberen1]

Beside's maybe for a show at the Bass is there really any reason for people from Arlington or Southlake/Colleyville/Grapevine to come to SS??

Maybe you just aren't a SS kind of guy. I personally like catching a band at 8.0 after dinner; sitting on the patio and having a few drinks with my friends. The rooftop bar is a unique drinking establishment that's perfect for date drinks. I love going to the movies downtown because the theatres aren't in the suburbs. The Flying Saucer in DTFW is better and more interesting than the other Flying Saucer's (although I like them all). Pete's is a hoot. Del's is Del's. The Ashton is a great place for a weekend get away with your spouse (not available in any of your crappy burbs).

I guess I see a lot more to attract people to DTFW than you do. However, I will admit there are a disproportionate number of bars.

I have driven to FW to eat at Reatta a few times, but SS's dining choices are becoming more generic as they continue to court corporate chains.

Of all the places in DTFW, why would you travel to go to Reatta? I take out of towners there so they have something to talk about, but the food is mediocre at best. And I don't see too many corporate chain restaurants. Bennigan's, Chili's, Razoo's, UNO, PF Chang, la Madiline and some of the lunch places (Potbelly, Subway, etc.). The rest are independent or part of pretty small chains. I certainly wouldn't call them "corporate" chains.

Daddyjack's, Piranha, Texas De Brazil, Del's, Fizzi, Mi Cocina, Ciao, Cabo, Risky's - I know these are part of restaurant groups, but they're hardly corporate chains. I know I'm missing a few here and there. There are also a bunch of independent restaurants that are worth traveling for.

Fort Worth needs two signature independent restaurants. Randall's used to be one, but it no longer qualifies as a destination in my opinion. I wish Lonesome Dove was downtown.

[FWillustrator]

Well, I think what DT is missing is really good quick stops for food, and really unique places that don't use the typical glossy marketing.

Cberen, even the small-company restaraunts you mentioned have pretty much the same feel (read: lack of character) as their corporate neighbors. And unfortunately a lot of the places that have more "character" are often lacking in the "yum" department. I attended a little real-estate professional's gathering at the Worthington National Bank in the Burk-Burnett building yesterday evening...after talking to a bank executive, it's pretty clear that a theme-park approach is what the money people have in mind for SS. That means more focus on image than the wholesomeness of the food.

Safly, if you want FRIED, the eastside is undoubtedly the place to go. Unfortunately for our vegetarian household, that means there's nothing for us to eat here except the french fries. Actually, Charlie's Pizza & Pasta on Handley makes a mean "Veggie Special" - that's the exception though.

[vjackson]

Beside's maybe for a show at the Bass is there really any reason for people from Arlington or Southlake/Colleyville/Grapevine to come to SS??

Of all the places in DTFW, why would you travel to go to Reatta? I take out of towners there so they have something to talk about, but the food is mediocre at best. And I don't see too many corporate chain restaurants. Bennigan's, Chili's, Razoo's, UNO, PF Chang, la Madiline and some of the lunch places (Potbelly, Subway, etc.). The rest are independent or part of pretty small chains. I certainly wouldn't call them "corporate" chains.

Daddyjack's, Piranha, Texas De Brazil, Del's, Fizzi, Mi Cocina, Ciao, Cabo, Risky's - I know these are part of restaurant groups, but they're hardly corporate chains. I know I'm missing a few here and there. There are also a bunch of independent restaurants that are worth traveling for.

Fort Worth needs two signature independent restaurants. Randall's used to be one, but it no longer qualifies as a destination in my opinion. I wish Lonesome Dove was downtown.

I like SS just fine, but I was more focusing on the shopping aspect. However, everything you mentioned dong in SS, I can do at Southlake Towne SQ., Legacy in Plano, West Village,or Mockingbird Station in Dallas, soon, Glorypark in Arlington, and several of the new Town Square developments popping up everywhere. I can do everything you can do in SS and then shop. I've driven to Southlake to listen to live music, eat, drink, and do some real shopping. Which is why I said FW is going to have to get some shops that are unique to be an actual draw for people. Another corporate store like Gap Or Talbots isn't going to do it. These stores are already everywhere and most people are not going to drive too far pass their homes for a pair of Gap jeans.

Granted I haven't been to Reatta to a while, and it did lose alot of its appeal once it left the tower, but lots of people like it and it was something that I felt wasn't on every corner. It used to be worth a drive to DTFW, I don't know about now. Also, Texas de Brazil has a few more locations around DFW and there are several very similar places around. And Mi Cocinas are just about everwhere. Fizzi and Ciao are mediocre at best, there's tons of better Italian spots. And Risky's BBQ (don't even get me started). But Lonesome Dove....now you're talkin!!!!!!

[vjackson]

Safly, if you want FRIED, the eastside is undoubtedly the place to go. Unfortunately for our vegetarian household, that means there's nothing for us to eat here except the french fries. Actually, Charlie's Pizza & Pasta on Handley makes a mean "Veggie Special" - that's the exception though.

Is Polly Grill still open near Texas Weslyan??? When I lived in FW, my friends and I would drive over there all the time. The fried pork chops and yams were out of this world!!!!! A old fashioned diner like that in DTFW would be awesome!!!

[Buck]

Bring back Whataburger.

[safly]

Well, I think what DT is missing is really good quick stops for food, and really unique places that don't use the typical glossy marketing.

Cberen, even the small-company restaraunts you mentioned have pretty much the same feel (read: lack of character) as their corporate neighbors. And unfortunately a lot of the places that have more "character" are often lacking in the "yum" department. I attended a little real-estate professional's gathering at the Worthington National Bank in the Burk-Burnett building yesterday evening...after talking to a bank executive, it's pretty clear that a theme-park approach is what the money people have in mind for SS. That means more focus on image than the wholesomeness of the food.

Nothing new.

Safly, if you want FRIED, the eastside is undoubtedly the place to go. Unfortunately for our vegetarian household, that means there's nothing for us to eat here except the french fries. Actually, Charlie's Pizza & Pasta on Handley makes a mean "Veggie Special" - that's the exception though.

So you would like to have a FRIED TEMPURA VEGGIE kinda place in DTFW? Interesting. I don't know of any place in DTFW that does that. The EASTSIDE place I went to was an old looking white washed burger or fry joint that had a broke down drive thru menu and mic. The fried OKRA was the best I have had in all of TEXAS, the catfish nuggets and fries were oh so crunchy and tasty. Very nice crew and helped me with directions to get back on 287 S. Now a Soul food restaurant in DTFW would be quite an attraction. I can see that soul/gospel recording artist from FW backing that venture. Maybe that's what DTFW needs more of, celebrity backed or ventured eateries? Except for that Kenny Rogers fried chicken place.

[AndyN]

Bring back Whataburger.

Amen, brother!

[JKC]

...after talking to a bank executive, it's pretty clear that a theme-park approach is what the money people have in mind for SS. That means more focus on image than the wholesomeness of the food.

What does that mean "theme-park approach"?

[FWillustrator]

JKC, Sundance Square is intended for tourists and I suppose residents who are tourist-like consumers. They want show - not necessarily substance. In other words they want tenants who will either A: have deep pockets, and can subsidize those tenants who don't, or B: have not-so-deep pockets, but know how to draw a crowd - as in a crowd of tourists at a theme park.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. It just means you're not likely to see any services or shops going in that will satisfy the everyday demands of downtown residents.

[Now in Denton]

Bring back Whataburger.

Im with you on that one! Better yet bring back Famous Hamburgers!

[JKC]

JKC, Sundance Square is intended for tourists and I suppose residents who are tourist-like consumers. They want show - not necessarily substance. In other words they want tenants who will either A: have deep pockets, and can subsidize those tenants who don't, or B: have not-so-deep pockets, but know how to draw a crowd - as in a crowd of tourists at a theme park.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. It just means you're not likely to see any services or shops going in that will satisfy the everyday demands of downtown residents.

I suspect a larger downtown residential population will change the ability to merchandise to lifestyle needs in the CBD.

[Stadtplan]

The Bass Family owns quite a bit of downtown. These other 20 blocks are adjacent to Sundance Square, but they are scattered on all sides of the area, except directly north on Main Street. I would say that most of the land is to the east, northeast, and southeast of Sundance Square.

Are they referring to 20 square blocks or 20 linear blocks? "Walk" made me think it was 20 blocks of storefront so 1 square block would really have 4 linear blocks of storefront, but you're probably right.

[safly]

When they mean more FEMALE oriented businesses, do they mean LAUNDRYMAT, Dry Cleaners, or Grocery mart? That is what they need in anywhere DTFW, but the Basses and SS Inc. are shooting themselves in tha foot here. It's not horsie parks and Men's Clotheirs that are needed in surrounding and general DTFW. IT'S ENTERTAINMENT! Support the ARTS and SPORTS. I want some DTFW bowling.

Bring back the Caravan o Dreams. Get some REAL dance clubs in town and some REAL BBQ.

HOLLER!

[David Love]

When they mean more FEMALE oriented businesses, do they mean LAUNDRYMAT, Dry Cleaners, or Grocery mart? That is what they need in anywhere DTFW, but the Basses and SS Inc. are shooting themselves in tha foot here. It's not horsie parks and Men's Clotheirs that are needed in surrounding and general DTFW. IT'S ENTERTAINMENT! Support the ARTS and SPORTS. I want some DTFW bowling.

Bring back the Caravan o Dreams. Get some REAL dance clubs in town and some REAL BBQ.

HOLLER!

I can understand shopping targeting the female audience, only makes sense since they typically spend on average 2 or 3 to 1 compared to men on apparel. I think retail is changing due to online purchases, I could see some high end brick and mortar businesses becoming nothing more than fancy dressing rooms, where people go to try things on before making the large purchases online, not sure if Fort Worth would see any of that sales tax. So if they’re shooting for some formula that’s worked for other cities they may find the target’s moved before they can take aim.

So SS has shopping, a good selection of restaurants, a number of places to imbibe your favorite poison, middle of the road movie theaters… have yet to see a movie without something going wrong, sound, picture, etc…

I’ll second the need for a dance club or two; Sundance Square does not have any as far as I’m concerned, if I’ve missed one then let me know, you’d think Sundance would have a place for boot scooting, could see a Red River type fitting in rather nicely, another with live rock or house techno would be a good fit. Hadn’t really considered it before but bowling / arcade styles of entertainment would be a really good fit downtown too, if they can afford to put a Main Event in Grapevine, what’s preventing one in downtown.

As for sports, as long as they keep the venues on the out skirts, in the vicinity or distance of the stockyards etc, should provide a large enough buffer.

[John T Roberts]

Further discussions in this topic relating to Sundance Square and Southlake Town Square have been split into their own thread under "Fort Worth Architecture". The link to the new thread is: http://www.fortworth...?showtopic=1591

If you are going to make comparisons between the two developments, please do it at the link above. Also, please try to keep this thread on topic regarding the existing tenants in Sundance Square that may close or leave.

[safly]

I say Jos A Banks is on the chopping block. Then La Madelaine. Then that lil flower shop on Main. Then one of the movie theaters. Then maybe that Leddy's place.

there.

[cberen1]

I say Jos A Banks is on the chopping block. Then La Madelaine. Then that lil flower shop on Main. Then one of the movie theaters. Then maybe that Leddy's place.

there.

Wow. I would have picked them to stay. I think Moonstruck, Shakolad, Zippy's, and Uno.

[FWillustrator]

Hmmm...somehow I feel like Shokolad is one of those places that the Basses would like to see stay. A chocolatier seems to fit the Sundance Square image nicely.

[vjackson]

This could be just hearsay, but from what I've heard from another B&N Bookstore manager, if B&N in SS doesn't start making money, that store will close. I'm suprised they didn't move to Montgomery Plaza like Pier One. But maybe the retail mix at MP didn't fit their "image". Is any bookstore going to be in MP?

[Keller Pirate]

Re: the Outlet Mall. This was a terrible idea from the start. Everything I've read says that you don't put discount/outlet stuff in downtowns. You're supposed to save that stuff for the boonies. The best stuff for downtowns is luxury and specialty retail first.

These things are also a matter of timing. I think in five years when there are more people living downtown home furnishing places might do very well. But nobody is going to get in their car, drive out of the suburbs, drive downtown, park in a garage and then lug a nightstand back to a parking garage. Nor are they going to do that for any item that's simpler to carry around in suburbia, including clothing. Until there is a true critical mass of residential downtown, they shouldn't try to duplicate the kind of merchandising found in suburbia. They would be much better served by landing either some truly unique and high profile retailers (Bergdorf, Armani, Tiffany, etc.) and/or some banal but basic services that can benefit current and prospective residents (dry cleaners, cel phone, pharmacy, etc.).

I totally agree with everything you said here, Sam. No one goes downtown to shop.

Most speculation is on restaurants going out of business but I think they do pretty good. If one was leaving I would vote for Cabo before Uno.

I note the article said retailers have to meet a sales performance bar to stay in the desired downtown location which could lead me to believe they are forcing some folks out against their will, or maybe they just want new tenants to think that. My guess is that restaurants do a better job pulling in money than retail stores so I am going to guess maybe the Leddy's and the Thomas Kinkade store might be leaving.

I do have to admit that in ten years I have bought a cigar at the cigar shop, a piece of art at a gallery that is no longer downtown and my wife purchased a watch from Haltom's. However when I bought these items I did not go downtown to shop.

It's interesting that this announcement was made at a convention in Las Vegas. The casino's have their high end malls attatched and it seems SS is trying to make DTFW sound similar to a Vegas type opportunity. I just don't see DTFW as a high rollers destination yet. When enough folks live DT there will be retail to meet their needs.

Maybe I'm wrong, the Basses have made more money than I have and you have to admire them for trying to kickstart the improvements.

[vjackson]

I totally agree with everything you said here, Sam. No one goes downtown to shop.

Ever been to Seattle??? If downtown and neighborhoods nearby are high density and there's good mass transit, downtown can become a shopping destination. DT Seattle has a ton of local and specialty retailers as well as well-known chains like Urban Outfitters, the Gap, and Club Monaco, even a Macy's. I think there's also some discount outlets for some upscale chains. Go downtown on a Saturday afternoon and it's just as busy as an any other shopping area. I think last time I visited I had some literature that said there were 1800 retailers downtown and in the immediate downtown area.

[Urbndwlr]

Beside's maybe for a show at the Bass is there really any reason for people from Arlington or Southlake/Colleyville/Grapevine to come to SS??

Maybe you just aren't a SS kind of guy. I personally like catching a band at 8.0 after dinner; sitting on the patio and having a few drinks with my friends. The rooftop bar is a unique drinking establishment that's perfect for date drinks. I love going to the movies downtown because the theatres aren't in the suburbs. The Flying Saucer in DTFW is better and more interesting than the other Flying Saucer's (although I like them all). Pete's is a hoot. Del's is Del's. The Ashton is a great place for a weekend get away with your spouse (not available in any of your crappy burbs).

I guess I see a lot more to attract people to DTFW than you do. However, I will admit there are a disproportionate number of bars.

I have driven to FW to eat at Reatta a few times, but SS's dining choices are becoming more generic as they continue to court corporate chains.

Of all the places in DTFW, why would you travel to go to Reatta? I take out of towners there so they have something to talk about, but the food is mediocre at best. And I don't see too many corporate chain restaurants. Bennigan's, Chili's, Razoo's, UNO, PF Chang, la Madiline and some of the lunch places (Potbelly, Subway, etc.). The rest are independent or part of pretty small chains. I certainly wouldn't call them "corporate" chains.

Daddyjack's, Piranha, Texas De Brazil, Del's, Fizzi, Mi Cocina, Ciao, Cabo, Risky's - I know these are part of restaurant groups, but they're hardly corporate chains. I know I'm missing a few here and there. There are also a bunch of independent restaurants that are worth traveling for.

Fort Worth needs two signature independent restaurants. Randall's used to be one, but it no longer qualifies as a destination in my opinion. I wish Lonesome Dove was downtown.

Lanny's Alta Cocina Mexicana is about 2 miles west of the center of Downtown, and Pirahana is smack in the middle of it. Duce is cool but is way out in Ridglea.

[Urbndwlr]

I totally agree with everything you said here, Sam. No one goes downtown to shop.

Ever been to Seattle??? If downtown and neighborhoods nearby are high density and there's good mass transit, downtown can become a shopping destination. DT Seattle has a ton of local and specialty retailers as well as well-known chains like Urban Outfitters, the Gap, and Club Monaco, even a Macy's. I think there's also some discount outlets for some upscale chains. Go downtown on a Saturday afternoon and it's just as busy as an any other shopping area. I think last time I visited I had some literature that said there were 1800 retailers downtown and in the immediate downtown area.

No but I am very eager to visit. I hear great things.

Everyone is onto the same thing - the restaurants and bars perform very well Downtown, and the other retail typically plods along or downright fails. To say "nobody shops Downtown" is a gross overstatement, but I understand the point.

The relevant question is why people choose not to purchase many non-consumables Downtown, and why they select locations outside of Downtown for their purchases.
For example, assuming each Barnes & Noble store is an equal distance from Person X, why would Person X choose to drive to the one on University for his/her book/periodical rather than the one Downtown? What tips the decision? Is there anything that can shift the balance to favor the Downtown location (e.g. improved quality of experience, convenience to complementary retailers)?

[heathPS]

I, personally, see Downtown FW as more of a place to go eat and bar-hop. There currently aren't any stores that draw me to go downtown when I am in the shopping mood. I would LOVE to see more clothing retailers added, especially in the SS area.

[Keller Pirate]

The relevant question is why people choose not to purchase many non-consumables Downtown, and why they select locations outside of Downtown for their purchases.
For example, assuming each Barnes & Noble store is an equal distance from Person X, why would Person X choose to drive to the one on University for his/her book/periodical rather than the one Downtown? What tips the decision? Is there anything that can shift the balance to favor the Downtown location (e.g. improved quality of experience, convenience to complementary retailers)?

I think the reason why people don't go Downtown to shop is that most people shop close to home and the fact that there isn't that much to shop for in DTFW. In the specific case of Barnes and Noble and being equally distant from two stores the easy answer is parking. Unless it is after 6 pm you have to pay to park DTFW and you most likely aren't going to get very close to the store you want to go to. That alone increases your travel time to the store so a person closer to DTFW may still want to visit a location that is further away just to save time and money. I know 2 people that have changed jobs because they didn't like working downtown because they had to pay to park.

There is also more shopping to be had at the University location in a more compact area. Even if you didn't plan on buying something, people sometimes like to walk through the Pottery Barn or Williams-Sonoma as long as it's nearby. DTFW is kind of spread out as far a retail goes.

It is the old chicken or the egg question as far as DTFW goes, will residences bring in the retail or will retail bring the residents DTFW? I think the residents will have to be DTFW before the retail shows up en mass but, as some have mentioned there currently are not a lot of families with children DTFW. You have a lot of young singles and married and empty nesters. Young people don't have as much disposible income as older folks and the older people that are downsizing aren't buying a lot of stuff they're getting rid of it. My non expert marketing guess is that the families buying the new homes being built in the suburbs are where the biggest spenders are.

[safly]

Follow the PLASTIC.

[1849]

Personally my wife and I, who live in Oakhurst just east of DTFW and are in our mid-20s, hate going to DTFW. We drive to Hurst just to go to B&N or Starbucks. DTFW is just plain boring and a pain to deal with. We would rather sit in our car for 10 minutes on the drive to Hurst down 121 than drive 3 minutes and have to walk 10 to get where we want to go.

The DT theme is a good idea if people really lived there. Have you seen how many of those Tower slots are up for rent on MLS? My God, that place must be half empty. Which doesn't do anything for the need of shopping destinations in DT.

All I have to say is the Montgomery Plaza is the type of area people in our age group like to go. There is a unique, hip feel about it. Sundance is run by a bunch of old-farts (no offense old-farts) who don't know what's in style and won't listen to anyone other than Robert Bass in making their decisions. How do I know this? Some partners and I pitched an up-scale club to them. We had a documented $300k cash ready to pour into the business and they decided to give the slot to Milan, who failed in the location on Main. We were all in our 20s & 30s and knew what people our age, who spend money, want in a club. I can assure you this, it's not City Streets.

I think DTFW is a lost cause. Great for those who know nothing better (tourists), but not for the residents of the area. All we are hoping is that the TRV is really what it is being touted as. If so, DTFW will be a tourist wasteland in about 10 years.

[Yossarian]

There is a unique, hip feel about it. Sundance is run by a bunch of old-farts (no offense old-farts) who don't know what's in style and won't listen to anyone other than Robert Bass in making their decisions.

Your frustration would be better directed at Ed. As to whom to listen to as far as business decisions, you would be very well served financially to listen to Bob. Out of those four brothers, he is the one who has performed best...

[hooked]

IMO, downtown is anything but boring (of course, I'm an "old fart," so what do I know?). On Thursday, Friday, and Saturday nights the parking lots are full, and there are so many people out and about, it's like a carnival atmosphere. Reminds me a bit of 6th Street in Austin - almost too much so, at times. With all the restaurants, clubs, movie theaters, Four-Day Weekend, and the Bass Hall, there's usually something for just about everyone.

Judging from all the new construction and the pace of sales at the T & P, apparently others don't share your view that downtown is "a lost cause."

With regard to the Tower, most of units that are for rent were bought as investments. Quite a number of owners bought several - one to live in one and others to lease. I also know several people who've moved from the original unit into larger units, or units with better views; they've kept the original unit to rent out. By the way, I wish the Tower were only half full - I liked it a lot better then. It's about eighty-five percent occupied now, and it's much more difficult to get a good chair by the pool, especially on the weekend.

Perhaps Sundance Management was not impressed by the previous management experience of your twenty-something partnership, or your $300,000 cash - which doesn't go nearly as far as it used to.

[Brian Luenser]

Personally my wife and I, who live in Oakhurst just east of DTFW and are in our mid-20s, hate going to DTFW. We drive to Hurst just to go to B&N or Starbucks. DTFW is just plain boring and a pain to deal with. We would rather sit in our car for 10 minutes on the drive to Hurst down 121 than drive 3 minutes and have to walk 10 to get where we want to go.

The DT theme is a good idea if people really lived there. Have you seen how many of those Tower slots are up for rent on MLS? My God, that place must be half empty. Which doesn't do anything for the need of shopping destinations in DT.

All I have to say is the Montgomery Plaza is the type of area people in our age group like to go. There is a unique, hip feel about it. Sundance is run by a bunch of old-farts (no offense old-farts) who don't know what's in style and won't listen to anyone other than Robert Bass in making their decisions. How do I know this? Some partners and I pitched an up-scale club to them. We had a documented $300k cash ready to pour into the business and they decided to give the slot to Milan, who failed in the location on Main. We were all in our 20s & 30s and knew what people our age, who spend money, want in a club. I can assure you this, it's not City Streets.

I think DTFW is a lost cause. Great for those who know nothing better (tourists), but not for the residents of the area. All we are hoping is that the TRV is really what it is being touted as. If so, DTFW will be a tourist wasteland in about 10 years.

I guess my "Old Fart Eyes" are failing me again. It looks like you said, "Downtown Fort Worth is too boring so we drive to Hurst." ... Guess I need some of those reading glasses all the boys at the Lodge are wearing.

[1849]

Well that is in two different contexts:

1 - Hurst is much more convenient for shopping and eating and has more choices in a more compact area. It would take a lot to make DTFW my choice as a shopping destination.

2 - DTFW is boring compared to everywhere my wife and I choose to go (Lower Greenville; The Ridglea; Deep Ellum). Those places have character, regardless of how 'bad' or 'dangerous' people say some of the places we like to go are. Much like why we live in Riverside, because we're not scared of gang kids and thugs, and like the uniqueness of the neighborhood.

And honestly, we WOULD rather walk around the shops in NE Mall and catch a movie at the new Rave theater than mess with DTFW.

Austin is unique, Deep Ellum is unique, Key West is unique...DTFW will never be able to be like those places unless a hell of a lot of creativity goes into picking the right tenants. Carbon-copy stores and restaraunts are all the same, so why would anyone come to DTFW from Keller or SWFW? They won't and don't.

[JKC]

I must say I cannot understand the notion that DTFW is boring.

But I thought about the assertion that people are not coming in to DTFW and decided to do a quick scan of the TABC reciepts for Mixed-Beverage permits in the month of June. (just the easiest public reference point I could think of)

If you take all reports from Mixed-Beverage permits from H-E-B and FW, you get 588 restaurants and bars. Sort by decending sales and of the top 25 sales performers, 10 are in DTFW. 8 of those are full service restaurants.

That powerhouse of uniqueness and all things interesting, Hurst, has 4 in the top 100 and none in the top 25.

Clearly, this is not an exhaustive research but it is interesting.

[John T Roberts]

1849, your comments are interesting because I'm just the opposite. I live on Fort Worth's South Side and downtown is my closest major destination for movies and dining. I prefer to drive 3 minutes and walk 10 minutes more over getting stuck in traffic on Hulen or Bryant Irvin at the next closest destination point. I can't stand to sit in traffic. The Hulen area is way too congested for my tastes. Granted, there are department stores there that can't be found in downtown, but I'm also not a mall person, and usually only go to the major malls only once or twice per year. So you will probably ask of what generation do I belong. Well, I'm one of the "old farts" here.

[1849]

Well in terms of who is spending where, which should be the goal in marketing a destination location, I would say that:

1 - My generation are the types who like malls, spend money on beer, concerts, clubs, and clothing...which is what Sundance seems to be trying to attract. We have small amounts of disposable income, but most of us blow a lot, and blow it on entertainment.

2 - The 'old-farts' (I hate that term, but it seems to have stuck) are the types who dislike malls, like to go to Bass Hall shows, buy luxury cars, and vacation homes. They have a substantial amount of money to blow, but like John said, he goes to the mall 2 times a year. Meaning I would argue that in terms of an entertainment or even shopping destination, younger (20-40) people are more likely to blow more money on a consistent basis. The destination needs to attract us, not the older-ones, if they want to really make money.

So I guess what I'm saying is I'm confused about what Sundance is going for? If they are going for the 'old-fart' demographic, then they are on the right track. But I would argue that if they want stores and bars/clubs to make money, they will do so from a younger demographic. I'm 27 and just starting out, funishing a home, buying suits, etc.; I don't know the last time my father bought a new shirt. He has money but doesn't spend it. I have less money, but spend like it's going out of style. Not by impulse, just by pure need.

To attract younger people, destinations need to be intersting and exciting and new. Sundance is not that.

(I'm not trashing Sundance in all of this, just providing a view from a younger generation. It is a hell of a lot better than it was 15 years ago when you needed a gun to go downtown after dark.)

[David Love]

I think the shopping question is much more complex than just a few individual’s shopping preferences. Why people prefer to drive or walk to any given chain store or a one of kind establishment is influenced by more factors than anyone here has the time or desire to document.

My Sundance Square List

Negatives:
• If you’re driving you never know where you’re going to park, the parking is not user-friendly.
• Limited to items or number of items you can carry.
• Panhandlers
• It’s not a one stop place to get everything…
• Some can’t deal with one way streets.

• “The movie theaters are modern, good equipment and selection of movies; I can walk to one of two in less than 5 minutes, but I have yet to see a single movie, not a single one, that did not have some kind of operator error, no sound, mis-tracked sound, blurry image, no image, lights turned off and no one can find their seat, or lights left on during the movie. In addition to all the technical issues, I’ve only been to one that did not contain either a crying / talking child or a gang of tweens enjoying their own little party. I’ve lived down here for a year now and it only seems to be getting worse.” I will add that most of the employees I’ve met try really hard; I’m not sure what the problem is.

Positives:

• Have to work, will work on this later.