155 replies to this topic

[vjackson]

I just think I'm extremely objective and realistic.

Good for you. I think I'm extremely attractive and loved by everyone I meet.




Good thing I'm not biased.

And you are well within your rights to think that. And just because someone else might not find you especially attractive or lovable doesn't make their assessment of you wrong nor does it make your assessment of yourself right. They just disagree with you..plain an simple....they have a different point of view....they see things differently than the way you see them. In certain circumstances disagreements can be problematic ..even deadly, but on an architecural forum like this I beieve they are quite harmless. The world is not going to stop spinning, time will continue to move forward, and you're not going to jump out a window.....Are you?? Remember on a discussion board like this, no matter how important and thoughtful you or I believe our opinions and thoughts are...they both mean absolutely nothing and thus are equally important.

[austlar]

I often agree with VJ, but lately he is sounding kind of ornery on the subject of downtown FW. Unless I am missing something, downtown Dallas is not shopping mecca. Yeah, Neiman's hangs on downtown, but it's staying there was, I am guessing, a public relations decision for the most part. Outside of NYC, I can only think of a few other American cities, such as San Francisco or Chicago, where shopping downtown remains an exciting option. Atlanta, LA, DC, Seattle, Boston and other cities have a few remaining downtown department stores and a few blocks of shabby retailing, but most residents shop in the nearby malls or trendy shopping/entertainment strips further removed from downtown. Fort Worth has uninspired retail, but the fact that there is not much of it downtown is , to my mind, not a really valid criticism, at least not at this stage of it's redevelopment.

I'm not ornery about DTFW, I just think I'm extremely objective and realistic. And believe me, I'm no different in regards to Dallas subjects. Anyway, I have to disagree with Seattle, I found the options downtown there plentiful. On a normal Saturday afternoon, downtown was full of shoppers all day.

VJ- I guess you may be right about Seattle. I have not been there in a quarter century or more. I think it was during the period when they had the "Will the last person to leave Seattle please turn out the lights." billboard, back during a Boeing slump and the energy crisis of the late 70's. Downtown was pretty grim. Even the Pike St. Market (sp?) was semi-shuttered. I know Seattle has grown rich and powerful since that time, and it is good to hear that downtown shopping has survived and flourished. I still stand by my position, however, that the vast majority of American cities have, at best , a pretty bleak selection of retail options in their downtown areas. Just make a mental map in your head and ask yourself which cities actually have the kind of retail vibe that you find on Michigan Ave. or around Union Square. Damn few. Give DTFW a break on this score. I agree with your comments regarding retail options in the rest of FW. I really don't understand it because there are significant portions of "old Fort Worth" on the West and Southwest sides of town that have the income (dare I call it "wealth"?) to support high end retail or innovative retail. Perhaps it is just a sluggish lack of interest on the part of most of these Fort Worthians, who, as you love to point out (and I agree), like things pretty much the way they are.

[Keller Pirate]

^^^^^
You two are right. Wealth was a poor choice of words. I should have used high income area in regards to the Southlake population as wealth is different things to different people. I remember reading a columun somewhere where the author describred the truly "wealthy" as being only about 3% of the U.S. population.

Define "truly". 3% probably comes close to describing housholds with a net worth >500K

Todays Wall Street Journal on page D3, abbreviated "The World Wealth Report compiled by Merril Lynch & Co shows that in 2005 the US population of individuals with net financial assets of at least $1 million grew 6.8% to 2.67 million. In 2004 the same population increased by 9.9% to 2.5 million. World wide the number climbed to 8.7 million, a 6.5% increase from 2004."

I think this number is low because I remember seeing numbers like around 8 million millionaires in the US in the last year or two. A lot of people think they are millionaires because of real estate but you are not supposed to count the home you live in as a asset for determining net worth.

I know a suprising number of people that do not have mortgages, maybe because I am getting old and hang with a bunch of geezers. As for Colonial Park and $400,000 homes I don't know where that is but that price range would put you pretty low on the price rung in Southlake. Gee illustrator, I always thought one way to aquire wealth was to make a lot of money. Now I don't have a clue if making money is not the path to riches.
The truely wealthy people aren't in Southlake they are next door in Westlake.

[vjackson]

^^^^^
Austlar, I think it's safe to say Seattle has changed quite a bit since the 70's. It definitely is one of my favorite cities and one of my favorite downtowns. Maybe you should plan a trip and see how it has changed.

Actually I don't expect DTFW to to become a shopping mecca, as FW has never been a shopper's paradise. But I think by allowing one entity to pick and choose all of the retail for 20 blocks (Sundance) your are discouraging the growth of the funky, original, local retail that can become a destination for shoppers, even those from well beyond the DTFW area.

Sundance SQ has one thing going for it that DTD doesn't. It has no real competition. It is the only real entertainment/living/"shopping" destination in town. (Don't even mention the Stockyards) No Uptown, Westvillage, Mockingbird Station, Oaklawn, Knox-Henderson, etc. It will be interesting to see what will happen if ever there is a true urban neighborhood developed in FW. If Southlake TS was built on West Seventh, with the shopping, cinema, Cheesecake Factory and other restuarants, plus the residential, would people make it down to SS nearly as often???? It would be interesting to find out, but at the rate "urban" FW is moving who knows when that will be.

[cberen1]

And you are well within your rights to think that. And just because someone else might not find you especially attractive or lovable doesn't make their assessment of you wrong nor does it make your assessment of yourself right. They just disagree with you..plain an simple....they have a different point of view....they see things differently than the way you see them. In certain circumstances disagreements can be problematic ..even deadly, but on an architecural forum like this I beieve they are quite harmless. The world is not going to stop spinning, time will continue to move forward, and you're not going to jump out a window.....Are you?? Remember on a discussion board like this, no matter how important and thoughtful you or I believe our opinions and thoughts are...they both mean absolutely nothing and thus are equally important.

Lighten up, Francis.

-Sgt. Hulka (Stripes)

[cjyoung]

Some good points Illustrator.

Jackson, careful with the term "wealth". Southlake is a high income area of the metroplex, but as Illustrator notes, that does not necessarily translate into actual "wealth". Places like Southlake are typically high debt bolstered by high income areas. The difference would be portions of N. Dallas and W. Fort Worth where most debt is offset by true assets that often exceed the value of the debt - in essence creating net worth. A good chunk of the professionals in Southlake are able to "float" what would be considered negative net worth on the back of very high incomes until they can build sufficient equity in their often "more expensive than they should be buying now" home. Debt for them is used as leverage into more consumables. The opposite is the high net worth individual in say HP who has a mortgage only b/c it is cheaper for him monitarily to have his other assets (capital) seeking higher or more diversified returns.

Sounds like Plano.

[cjyoung]

^^^^^
Austlar, I think it's safe to say Seattle has changed quite a bit since the 70's. It definitely in one of my favorite cities and one of my favorite downtowns. Maybe you should plan a trip and see how it has changed.

Actually I don't expect DTFW to to become a shopping mecca, as FW has never been a shopper's paradise. But I think by allowing one entity to pick and choose all of the retail for 20 blocks (Sundance) your are discouraging the growth of the funky, original, local retail that can become a destination for shoppers, even those from well beyond the DTFW area.

Sudance SQ has one thing going for it that DTD doesn't. It has no real competition. It is the only real entertainment/living/"shopping" destination in town. (Don't even mention the Stockyards) No Uptown, Westvillage, Mockingbird Station, Oaklawn, Knox-Henderson, etc. I will be interesting to see what will happen if ever there is a true urban neighborhood developed in FW. If Southlake TS was built on West Seventh, with the shopping, cinema, Cheesecake Factory and other restuarants, plus the residential, would people make it down to SS nearly as often???? It would be interesting to find out, but at the rate "urban" FW is moving who knows when that will be.

If I had the capital to own 20 blocks downtown, I would control what retail went in also. My focus would be how many corporate relocations and new startups I could land, so I would build spec towers (>40 stories) in SS. In fact, instead of herding cows down Times Square, I would buy air time during the Super Bowl promoting my SS as the perfect location for relocation. All the "funky" stuff would take care of itself as you get more $$ downtown.

I know it sounds crazy and probably doesn't make perfect business sense, but I'm a firm believer in the "build it and they will come" philosphy that built Las Vegas and Orlando in to tourist and convention meccas.

[safly]

Fine. Let's get some CASINOS then.

[Yossarian]

but you are not supposed to count the home you live in as a asset for determining net worth.

Why not? That is a silly statement. It is an asset which is either mortgaged (and thus has a coresponding liability associated with it) or is "owned" and thus has a corresponding "equity" balance. Either way, it MOST definitely is a component of "net worth". Now, if you are suggesting that one should not get too agressive with leveraging "wealth" that has increased due to a surge in the relative value of a certain asset class, I would tend to agree. But in the end, not including a home (real estate) in the calculation of ones net worth because of the fluctuations of the market for that specific asset class is akin to not calculating the value of ones equities (stock) portfoilio for the same reasons.

Fine. Let's get some CASINOS then.

Unfortunately the state legislature is not capable of even debating that issue properly; so don't hold your breath.

[Keller Pirate]

but you are not supposed to count the home you live in as a asset for determining net worth.

Why not? That is a silly statement. It is an asset which is either mortgaged (and thus has a coresponding liability associated with it) or is "owned" and thus has a corresponding "equity" balance. Either way, it MOST definitely is a component of "net worth". Now, if you are suggesting that one should not get too agressive with leveraging "wealth" that has increased due to a surge in the relative value of a certain asset class, I would tend to agree. But in the end, not including a home (real estate) in the calculation of ones net worth because of the fluctuations of the market for that specific asset class is akin to not calculating the value of ones equities (stock) portfoilio for the same reasons.

Yoss, I'm suprised you have not seen that advice before. I have read it countless times in various publications and have seen folks on TV saying the same thing. That said I do think you have a point.

I believe this is put out for the average person that has most of their wealth tied up in the value of their home and very little in other assets. The reasoning behind it is that you have to have a place to live and you always will. If you live in a hot real estate market and get a big run up in your equity and sell you will have to spend your profit on a replacement home in that market or give up your job and move someplace else. Also most folks don't consider the cost of property taxes, insurance, upkeep and repairs, not to mention interest if they have a mortgage. In a hot market you can overcome some of those expenses but most folks just break even on their homes when the total cost is figured in. I think planners are trying to discourage people that may think since they have large equity in their home they are going to be able to retire on that money. It is part of a persons net worth but is not available for investment by most people.

Now if you are a wealthy person, have investments returning cash to you monthly or quarterly and money in the bank and own your own million dollar home in Texas, I would agree that counting it as part of your net worth would make sense and not put your future at risk. You probably could live comfortably in a home at half that value and have the rest available to invest for an income if you needed to.

After you wrote your comments I looked at my financial plan and our planner did include our home in our net worth. Touche'. In owning this home I have spent more just in property taxes and insurance than it has appreciated over the nearly 10 years I have had it. Definitely an underperforming asset. Texas has lagged behind the country in home value increases, I wonder if high property taxes has had a hand in that? In the thread about Nashville they said low property taxes were attracting jobs and homeowners.

[Yossarian]

I understand your points Pirate. Let's defer to the ultimate authority on whether or not a home should be considered in determining "net worth": The IRS. When you die, that home most definitely gets factored into the valuation of an estate for the purposes of calculating estate taxes due, therefore they consider it an asset and must thereby have corresponding liability and/or equity on a personal balance sheet. If that "equity" exceeds any liabilities, one therefore has positive "net worth".

Oh, and I have seen that advice before. It is valuable in scaring the begezers out of young investors/home buyers for taking on too much debt. Interestingly, the Commerce Dept. does NOT count home equity in factoring savings rates among Americans, yet as stated above, the IRS will upon death.

[cjyoung]

Fine. Let's get some CASINOS then.

Personally, I don't gamble, but considering how many folks from North and East Texas travel to Shreveport/Bossier City and Thackerville, OK everyday, I would say that it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

The problem is that Texans are hypocrites when it comes to vices.

[Keller Pirate]

Anybody happen to see the latest D magazine? They rated the top 60 suburbs of Dallas and Southlake came in No. 1. Colleyville and the Park Cities were in the top ten. Poor sister Keller was No. 21. I don't have details on how they arrived at the ratings, I just perused the article while I was in the grocery store.
I don't consider Keller a suburb of Dallas, Ft Worth, definatly.

[cberen1]

Anybody happen to see the latest D magazine? They rated the top 60 suburbs of Dallas and Southlake came in No. 1. Colleyville and the Park Cities were in the top ten. Poor sister Keller was No. 21. I don't have details on how they arrived at the ratings, I just perused the article while I was in the grocery store.
I don't consider Keller a suburb of Dallas, Ft Worth, definatly.

Where did Aledo come into the rankings (since proximity is obviously only a secondary consideration).

[JulieM]

Southlake being in Tarrant shouldn't be considered a suburb of Dallas. Neither should Colleyville or Keller. Putting Colleyville as number one suburb of Dallas is beyond me.

[vjackson]

How does SL promote the city in its literature? Does it consider itself to be a surburb of Dallas?? I've always considered it a FW surburb, but I remember a few years ago, the news was doing a story about SL's July 4th celebration and Southlake's mayor said SL was Dallas' finest suburb. I remember Arlington almost always proclaimed itself as a Dallas suburb. I remember when my family lived in Sugarland, we got some Six Flags/City of Arlington tourism literature and I don't think it mentioned FW a single time.

[cjyoung]

Anybody happen to see the latest D magazine? They rated the top 60 suburbs of Dallas and Southlake came in No. 1. Colleyville and the Park Cities were in the top ten. Poor sister Keller was No. 21. I don't have details on how they arrived at the ratings, I just perused the article while I was in the grocery store.
I don't consider Keller a suburb of Dallas, Ft Worth, definatly.

The content in D Magazine and its Fort Worth rival "Fort Worth, Texas" (what a dumb name for a city rag!) brings zero value to the glossy paper that their printed on.

Everyone that I meet who say they live in "Keller" whether it's Heritage or Saratoga seem surprised that they actually live in Fort Worth. I guess the lot description in their deed, Fort Worth water bill or Fort Worth police cruising their neighborhoods aren't clear signs.

"Why won't they let us go to Keller Pointe?" "...cause you don't live in Keller, you big dummy!"

[cjyoung]

How does SL promote the city in its literature? Does it consider itself to be a surburb of Dallas?? I've always considered it a FW surburb, but I remember a few years ago, the news was doing a story about SL's July 4th celebration and Southlake's mayor said SL was Dallas' finest suburb. I remember Arlington almost always proclaimed itself as a Dallas suburb. I remember when my family lived in Sugarland, we got some Six Flags/City of Arlington tourism literature and I don't think it mentioned FW a single time.

The Fort Worth CVB opted out of the ads, so there was no mention of Fort Worth.
They suck!

[Keller Pirate]

Where did Aledo come into the rankings (since proximity is obviously only a secondary consideration).

I didn't memorize the entire list but I did scan it to see if Ft Worth was on there and it wasn't. I suppose that would really be rubbing salt in the old wounds.

I agree that any Tarrant County town shouldn't be considered a suburb of Dallas but you have to admit Hwy 114 does give folks a pretty direct shot to Dallas at the right time of day from Grapevine or Southlake.

[JulieM]

When I tell people I live in north Fort Worth and then when asked where, I reply Woodland Springs and almost everytime, they say, "isn't that Keller." BTW, we can join Keller Pointe as residents...go figure. I guess it has to do with that Keller zip code they have saddled us with.

I lived in Arlington from 1980 - 1990 and I never then nor now have heard it referred to as a suburb of Dallas, unless it is by a Dallasite.

[vjackson]

^^^^
I've always felt the City Arlington wanted little to do with the FW side of DFW. Remember there was a time when it seemed Arlington didn't want to be called a suburb at all. I used to work with a woman in Dallas a few years ago who lived in Arlington. She was in her mid 30's and grew up in East FW. I remember her telling some coworkers she and her family had not been to FW in 12 years!!! I would love to know what percentage of Arlington and Southlake residents work in FW or Dallas. Maybe that can play a part in what city the suburb feels a bigger attachment to. There was the article a few months ago that talked about the high numbers of cars that head east from Tarrant Co. every morning, but I think they were mostly talking about I-30. So I'm willing to bet most of Arlington's population works in the Dallas area. With Southlake's high wage earners, it might be safe to assume many of them head east in the morning as well. I know an attorney and a judge that both call Southlake home. I'm going to have to ask them what city they feel they are a suburb to.

[safly]

I know an attorney and a judge that both call Southlake home. I'm going to have to ask them what city they feel they are a suburb to.

Well. Good luck on getting a STRAIGHT answer from one of them.

[John T Roberts]

VJackson, I think to answer might be found in the Census Bureau's official definition of a suburb. You could look that up and then browse through the 2000 Census data to find what percentage of a city's workers are commuting into Fort Worth or Dallas and that would determine what suburbs belong to which larger city. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Arlington fit the definition of a suburb to both cities.

[cjyoung]

^^^^
I've always felt the City Arlington wanted little to do with the FW side of DFW. Remember there was a time when it seemed Arlington didn't want to be called a suburb at all. I used to work with a woman in Dallas a few years ago who lived in Arlington. She was in her mid 30's and grew up in East FW. I remember her telling some coworkers she and her family had not been to FW in 12 years!!! I would love to know what percentage of Arlington and Southlake residents work in FW or Dallas. Maybe that can play a part in what city the suburb feels a bigger attachment to. There was the article a few months ago that talked about the high numbers of cars that head east from Tarrant Co. every morning, but I think they were mostly talking about I-30. So I'm willing to bet most of Arlington's population works in the Dallas area. With Southlake's high wage earners, it might be safe to assume many of them head east in the morning as well. I know an attorney and a judge that both call Southlake home. I'm going to have to ask them what city they feel they are a suburb to.

Most don't drive to Dallas, but to Irving/Las Colinas, Plano/Legacy, Addison, and Richardson. Fort Worth does a decent job at providing jobs for its residents. Arlington, Grapevine, Southlake, Colleyville, Keller, Euless, Hurst, Bedford and NRH provide very little, so that's why you have the 18% or so who travel east.

[vjackson]

^^^^
When I said people head east into the Dallas area to work, I wasn't just talking about Dallas proper, but many of the areas you mentioned. But I've met lots of people working in Dallas that live in Arlignton, including several in my office now. Three people working here live in FW. Also my first job in Dallas was in N. Dallas and we had a guy working there that lived in MINERAL WELLS!!!! Also in this office, there's a woman that lives in WACO!!! Now that's a commute.

[cberen1]

^^^^
When I said people head east into the Dallas area to work, I wasn't just talking about Dallas proper, but many of the areas you mentioned. But I've met lots of people working in Dallas that live in Arlignton, including several in my office now. Three people working here live in FW. Also my first job in Dallas was in N. Dallas and we had a guy working there that lived in MINERAL WELLS!!!! Also in this office, there's a woman that lives in WACO!!! Now that's a commute.

There are two people in my office that work in DTFW and drive in from Highland Park every day. Lots of traffic both ways on those highways.

[vjackson]

Good to see things have changed in FW, as when I was lived there in my mid twenties, the lack of professional jobs and good pay was the biggest complaint among my friends in the same age group. Only one of us remains in FW, and he works in Los Colinas. His wife is currently taking paralegal classes in an attempt to get a better job, she said when one of her instructors was asked by a classmate, what kind of money they would make as paralegals, he told them if they wanted to make any decent money, they would have to work in Dallas. They're moving next year. I'm in the legal field and I would have to agree, as I could find no no decent paying work in that field when I lived in FW. ( I ended up transporting shackled juvenile deliquents from jail to jail.) If you know of any good legal jobs let me know, as one of my old coworkers is still seeking a legal job, since we've closed of FW office. She's currently working at Dillard's. She was one of the few offered a position in the Dallas office, but she didn't want to commute. She finally sent me her resume, and I'm looking for some leads for her. I'm not trying to sound sarcastic, but if you know of anything, let me know. I really want to help her. Talk about off subject!!!!

[vjackson]

[quote name='cjyoung' date='Jun 19 2006, 03:22 PM' post='26794']

What did you do in seven hours?

quote]

Isn't that the purpose of these developments...to keep you there for long periods of time. I ate, saw a movie, did some mean shopping, got my ipod fixed (Apple Store) , and had a few drinks, all without getting back in a car. In that regard..I would say STS succeded. I think this development also offers office space. Anyone know who some of the office tenants are??

[Dallastar]

^^^^
When I said people head east into the Dallas area to work, I wasn't just talking about Dallas proper, but many of the areas you mentioned. But I've met lots of people working in Dallas that live in Arlignton, including several in my office now. Three people working here live in FW. Also my first job in Dallas was in N. Dallas and we had a guy working there that lived in MINERAL WELLS!!!! Also in this office, there's a woman that lives in WACO!!! Now that's a commute.

There are two people in my office that work in DTFW and drive in from Highland Park every day. Lots of traffic both ways on those highways.

Outside of people driving to GM and Bell Helicopter there isn't much traffic heading West down I-30 or I-20 in the mornings, but it's a different story with people driving from Tarrant County back East.

I'm trying to find it, but I once read a story in the paper that stated that between 8 and 5 Mon thru Friday Arlington become's one of the smallest cities in the metroplex ( in terms of population) because so many people leave Arlington to work.

[vjackson]

^^^^^
I know the article you're speaking of. When I had to work in FW ocassionally, and would drive instead of taking the TRE, heading west to FW on I-30 was always a breeze. East into DTD was always a nightmare. So it wasn't difficult to figure out which direction most people were headed.

[heathPS]

I haven't seen that article. I would love to though if anyone can find it.

I commute to Dallas daily from Arlington. I would much rather work in Fort Worth and have in the past, but the $$$ is just not there. The extra $$ by working in Dallas is well worth the horrendous commute.

[vjackson]

Here's what D mag said about Southlake:

1. Southlake
Population: 25,350
Annual growth since 1990: 8.3%
Average home sales price in 2005: $513,439
Median age of residents: 36.7
Families with kids under 18: 60.5%
Median household income: $131,549

WHAT RESIDENTS AND REAL ESTATE AGENTS SAY: The empty city streets on fall Friday nights give you a clue about what makes this town tick. All the local sports teams are the Dragons, not just the high school football team (which won the state 5A division championship last season and was named the No. 2 football team in the country by USA Today). The good news is local football brings people together; the bad news is winning is so important that less athletically gifted kids don’t get to play. The schools are great, but some say they’re full of rich kids with competitive, meddling parents. The Grapevine Lake Equestrian Trail gives a glimpse of what Southlake used to be like, but most residents think the growth has been handled well. The city often surveys its residents, listening and responding to their comments. Considered an elite area, homes can easily get up to more than $1 million.
WHAT WE SAY: Southlake combines city and country life. Sure, more than one Kerry sign was stolen here during the last presidential election, but the downtown brownstones and soon-to-open Central Market give the city a hip, urban feel. This is our most family-centered top suburb, with 60.4 percent of families having kids under 18. The city’s bike paths and sidewalks, which will allow kids to ride their bikes to the new Harkins movie theaters, are a definite suburban bonus. That said, the recent battle waged by parents whose daughters didn’t make the varsity cheerleading team (eventually the school board allowed all girls who had tried out to be on the team) shows that the Park Cities aren’t the only local bubble in need of perspective.

[vjackson]

^^^^
Living there would be a never ending nightmare for me

[safly]

Here's what D mag said about Southlake:

1. Southlake
Population: 25,350
Annual growth since 1990: 8.3%
Average home sales price in 2005: $513,439
Median age of residents: 36.7
Families with kids under 18: 60.5%
Median household income: $131,549

WHAT RESIDENTS AND REAL ESTATE AGENTS SAY: The empty city streets on fall Friday nights give you a clue about what makes this town tick. All the local sports teams are the Dragons, not just the high school football team (which won the state 5A division championship last season and was named the No. 2 football team in the country by USA Today). The good news is local football brings people together; the bad news is winning is so important that less athletically gifted kids don’t get to play. The schools are great, but some say they’re full of rich kids with competitive, meddling parents. The Grapevine Lake Equestrian Trail gives a glimpse of what Southlake used to be like, but most residents think the growth has been handled well. The city often surveys its residents, listening and responding to their comments. Considered an elite area, homes can easily get up to more than $1 million.
WHAT WE SAY: Southlake combines city and country life. Sure, more than one Kerry sign was stolen here during the last presidential election, but the downtown brownstones and soon-to-open Central Market give the city a hip, urban feel. This is our most family-centered top suburb, with 60.4 percent of families having kids under 18. The city’s bike paths and sidewalks, which will allow kids to ride their bikes to the new Harkins movie theaters, are a definite suburban bonus. That said, the recent battle waged by parents whose daughters didn’t make the varsity cheerleading team (eventually the school board allowed all girls who had tried out to be on the team) shows that the Park Cities aren’t the only local bubble in need of perspective.

A Successful 5A football Champion School making a big draw and providing a stable foundation for a community. Say it ain't SO.

Hmmmmm. Sounds very familiar.

Who argued that reasoning some time ago??? Thinking here...


And as for Dallas bound I-30 and FW bound I-30. I have seen plenty of I-30 Westbound traffic from my former residential vantage point at the first crack of sunrise.

The Dallas bound I-30 is bumper to bumper primarily due to CONSTRUCTION and also a BLINDING SUNRISE (accidents).

[JBB]

Here's what D mag said about Southlake:

The city’s bike paths and sidewalks, which will allow kids to ride their bikes to the new Harkins movie theaters, are a definite suburban bonus.

I'm not sure I'd let a child cross 1709 on a bicycle.

[cberen1]

I would much rather work in Fort Worth and have in the past, but the $$$ is just not there. The extra $$ by working in Dallas is well worth the horrendous commute.

I see evidence of this changing all the time. When we hire analysts out of Chicago or New York, we're paying 40% more than we were just 2 or 3 years ago. We have to in order to get the talent.

In speaking with attorneys around town, pay scale at law firms is increasing substantially for the same reasons. If firms like Kelly, Hart and Hallman want good attorneys, they're having to pony up for them. Starting salary for first year associates at KHH is now six figures, plus a healthy signing bonus. Five years ago that was unheard of in Ft. Worth. Everyone else in FW is having to follow KHH's lead. The flip side is that billing rates for attorneys in Ft. Worth are also increasing.

I have heard similar things out of investment firms like Q Investments.

It's not everywhere, but at the flagship companies in FW there's plenty of money floating around. It will just take time filter through to all of the varied businesses in the area. Dallas will always pay at a higher scale on average, but the gap will shrink over time.

[ramjet]

OMG! - I just heard that banana republic in southlake abruptly closed 'cause a gang of adolescent bikers crossed the county road and pillaged the khaki inventory before the regional manager from north park arrived for their weekly inspection of the backside of the metroplex... and the startlegram just broke that ICE raided south lake's cheesecake factory during happy hour rounding up all the illegals who were seating the DTFW'ers who were checking out the latest "W minus cool place" identified by vjackson.... what ever happened to betty ann stout?

[safly]

?

did I miss someting here. Links people. LINKS!

[vjackson]

Hey ramjet, safly does a much better job at the wild, weird rant. Leave it to the professionals, you're a mere amature.

[Yossarian]

I would much rather work in Fort Worth and have in the past, but the $$$ is just not there. The extra $$ by working in Dallas is well worth the horrendous commute.

I see evidence of this changing all the time. When we hire analysts out of Chicago or New York, we're paying 40% more than we were just 2 or 3 years ago. We have to in order to get the talent.

In speaking with attorneys around town, pay scale at law firms is increasing substantially for the same reasons. If firms like Kelly, Hart and Hallman want good attorneys, they're having to pony up for them. Starting salary for first year associates at KHH is now six figures, plus a healthy signing bonus. Five years ago that was unheard of in Ft. Worth. Everyone else in FW is having to follow KHH's lead. The flip side is that billing rates for attorneys in Ft. Worth are also increasing.

I have heard similar things out of investment firms like Q Investments.

It's not everywhere, but at the flagship companies in FW there's plenty of money floating around. It will just take time filter through to all of the varied businesses in the area. Dallas will always pay at a higher scale on average, but the gap will shrink over time.

Interesting, and I would tend to agree. Jackson is probably refering to positions a little lower on the food chain though, and grudgingly I would tend to agree with him that those salaries in FW are not up to Dallas' level by any stretch. As an aside, I have always been surprised that Q did not follow Carlson and Korenvaes over to Dallas; although I think that that is in the end good for Fort Worth

[ramjet]

perhaps you are right vjackson. although it takes practice for an amateur to become a professional. i just thing this whole string comparing south lake - the 21st century version of a mall trying to emulate brooklyn heights - to downtown fort worth - a 150 year old center of a city of over 600,000 - is the silliest exchange of opinions since - say, the comparison of montgomery plaza to northpark in dallas. forgive my amateurish rant. it was only frustration. and, really, what ever happened to betty ann stout?

[John T Roberts]

Ramjet, thread is partially my fault. We had a topic that drifted off course and became a comparison between the two developments. Several people felt that the original thread had drifted so far off topic, that it should have been split up. I read the posts again and I agreed, so I split them up. However, I am not responsible for the content of the discussion.

[RD Milhollin]

and, really, what ever happened to betty ann stout?

Was that a locally brewed dark and heavy ale? Did I mess something? Damn!

[ramjet]

Good guess - the dark beer comment made me laugh - however, Betty Ann Stout was the "pro wrestlin' " columnist for the Star Telegram in the '80's. Actually, the column had nothing to do with wrestling. Betty Ann Stout was the pen name for a popular columnist who used hilarious satire to make fun of just about every ridiculous thing that was happening in Fort Worth/Dallas at the time. For example, she wrote some funny stuff about the "Cowtown-White Settlement-Azle and Other Truck Stops Around Lake Worth Secret Society to Elect Betty Ann to Nuke Newt" when Newt Gingrich was going after then FW Congressman and Speaker of the U.S. House Jim Wright over his questionable book deals. In any case, she would have had a field day with vjackson and the Southlake vs. DTFW discussion and likely a few other topics on this forum. Where are the real professional ranters when you need them...?

[JKC]

perhaps you are right vjackson. although it takes practice for an amateur to become a professional. i just thing this whole string comparing south lake - the 21st century version of a mall trying to emulate brooklyn heights - to downtown fort worth - a 150 year old center of a city of over 600,000 - is the silliest exchange of opinions since - say, the comparison of montgomery plaza to northpark in dallas. forgive my amateurish rant. it was only frustration. and, really, what ever happened to betty ann stout?

Bang, and there it is!!!!!!! The truth.

[Urbndwlr]

This is an apples:oranges comparison.

Sundance Square is a district within a real, organically developed downtown - the center of a medium sized city that has been around for 150 years.

Southlake Town Square is a development; a synthetic downtown - created by one developer. The developer has done a much better job than most people would have ever expected, and is to be congratulated. It is a vast improvement over the status quo suburban shopping center and is serving as inspiration for other suburban towns that have no real heart. Kudos to Southlake.

[Urbndwlr]

I would much rather work in Fort Worth and have in the past, but the $$$ is just not there. The extra $$ by working in Dallas is well worth the horrendous commute.

I see evidence of this changing all the time. When we hire analysts out of Chicago or New York, we're paying 40% more than we were just 2 or 3 years ago. We have to in order to get the talent.

Interesting, and I would tend to agree. Jackson is probably refering to positions a little lower on the food chain though, and grudgingly I would tend to agree with him that those salaries in FW are not up to Dallas' level by any stretch. As an aside, I have always been surprised that Q did not follow Carlson and Korenvaes over to Dallas; although I think that that is in the end good for Fort Worth

I understand those two firms moved because of specific members' personal ties to Dallas. They might have blamed it on a difficulty recruiting talent to this city, however there were also some underlying personal relationship reasons for those moves. I admit I really took notice and started thinking about this subject (how to recruit talented young people to town - what they desire, what turns them on or off).

I have noticed a remarkable change in Fort Worth's ability to attract young, talented people from larger cities over hte last few years (it was around 1998-9 when Carlson and HBK left town). The environment here has changed. There are people moving here now that would not have considered doing so 7 or 10 years ago. The city has reached one of the tipping points in the improvement of its appeal to people who tend to prefer vibrant, urban places. Fort Worth now has a 24-hour city center that has just recently reached a real point of legitimacy (with about 3-4000 people living in downtown proper and 30-40 eating/drinking establishments, serious arts institutions with a lot of related activity). Granted, there are some people on the personality spectrum who wouldn't find it large enough, but we are at a point now where we can appeal to highly talented, 20-something single people who desire these environments. In 1998, this was not the case. I think this will continue to improve as more people visit the city and notice the improvement.

[Urbndwlr]

Anybody happen to see the latest D magazine? They rated the top 60 suburbs of Dallas and Southlake came in No. 1. Colleyville and the Park Cities were in the top ten. Poor sister Keller was No. 21. I don't have details on how they arrived at the ratings, I just perused the article while I was in the grocery store.
I don't consider Keller a suburb of Dallas, Ft Worth, definatly.

The content in D Magazine and its Fort Worth rival "Fort Worth, Texas" (what a dumb name for a city rag!) brings zero value to the glossy paper that their printed on.

Everyone that I meet who say they live in "Keller" whether it's Heritage or Saratoga seem surprised that they actually live in Fort Worth. I guess the lot description in their deed, Fort Worth water bill or Fort Worth police cruising their neighborhoods aren't clear signs.

"Why won't they let us go to Keller Pointe?" "...cause you don't live in Keller, you big dummy!"

Because they are thinking of their school district. Likewise I hear people who live in unincorporated western Tarrant County (future FW) say they live in Aledo - because that is their school district. I think more of these people will identify with Fort Worth as they take notice of the city's growing significance. These things happen slowly.

[hannerhan]

I would much rather work in Fort Worth and have in the past, but the $$$ is just not there. The extra $$ by working in Dallas is well worth the horrendous commute.

I see evidence of this changing all the time. When we hire analysts out of Chicago or New York, we're paying 40% more than we were just 2 or 3 years ago. We have to in order to get the talent.

Interesting, and I would tend to agree. Jackson is probably refering to positions a little lower on the food chain though, and grudgingly I would tend to agree with him that those salaries in FW are not up to Dallas' level by any stretch. As an aside, I have always been surprised that Q did not follow Carlson and Korenvaes over to Dallas; although I think that that is in the end good for Fort Worth

I understand those two firms moved because of specific members' personal ties to Dallas. They might have blamed it on a difficulty recruiting talent to this city, however there were also some underlying personal relationship reasons for those moves. I admit I really took notice and started thinking about this subject (how to recruit talented young people to town - what they desire, what turns them on or off).

Agree with that, and conversely the powers that be at Q were quite happy in FW. I think another reason is the type of business that each principal wanted to run. Carlson and HBK seemed to be after greater growth in assets, and maybe Dallas provides a higher profile and somewhat easier access to investors. Q on the other hand keeps a lower profile and didn't grow the capital as rapidly.

[hannerhan]

Speaking of hedge funds, it has been nice to see some FW increases in the past couple of years, with guys like Verity Capital coming back to Fort Worth out of Carlson, and with the growth of other funds like Kleinheinz Capital and SMH. Hopefully that will continue, and we'll see more smart money in the area (the term 'smart money' can be used loosely in some cases).