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DT - Lancaster and Main: What should this space be?

downtown lancaster main st park plaza greenspace

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#1 McHand

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:17 AM

 

The deal for the hotel at Main and Lancaster has fallen through.  The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has this report:

 

http://www.star-tele...uth-end-of.html

 

That's a much better spot for a park or monument type of place. 

PLENTY of open surface lots on the east and south side that are better. 
 

 

 

What a great idea, Jeriat! He's right:

 

http://tinyurl.com/k9jf7t7

 

What would the monument be, if any?  What kind of landscape design would there be?  How would pedestrian and bike traffic be encouraged?

 

Let's imagine a new gathering spot downtown!

 

 

 

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#2 Fort Worthology

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:01 AM

As I said in the other thread - I think it'd be a waste to have a park on that space when there is already a park that needs attention and activation literally right across the street (the Al Hayne Memorial Park).  The lot in question ought to be developed with a high-quality infill project that adds life to the street and helps to engage the underutilized park that we already have there.

 

Another park there without quality development around it would just be underused as the Hayne park is already, and be basically just meaningless "open space" without quality development around it.


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#3 Jeriat

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:26 AM

And that's why I suggested building on the open surface lots around the east and south side. Even creating something that Austin suggested in a past thread, building mixed use development in front of the T&P and next to the Post Office. That would help a lot. I know there's Hayne and even the Lancaster edge of the Water Gardens that needs some TLC as well.

 

Trust me, I always try to have an eye for places to develop in downtown... except for that space. To me, there's just something about that corner that just doesn't scream "put a building on me!" I don't know if it's the location, maybe it's the TRE running right along top of it. But if anything, since there's not many around, I guess a gas station/store built to urban standards would help...

 

 

As far as my suggestion, I'm thinking more monument than park, if they're not considered one in the same.

 

I imagine something like groups of statues commemorating the people of this city or veterans of past wars.


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#4 Austin55

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 12:31 PM

 

 

 Let's imagine a new gathering spot downtown!

 

 

 

It already is a very nice gathering spot, for the homeless!

 

I agree with Kevin, Perfect for a building in the 5 story range. Build it tall enough to block the view of highway ramps. Probably an office building because I'd be noisy never to the free way and tower 55. There's also the Watergardens right across the way to. I feel a park here would be useless.



#5 djold1

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 01:27 PM

Whatever its height, the design needs to fit in with the monumental buildings along the south side of Lancaster.  The wimpy little T&P lofts building next to the Terminal is out of  context and embarrassing. I don't mean the design has to be Deco or staid, simply that it should be outstanding and complementary to its location. 


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#6 McHand

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 03:47 PM

Wow, that was fast! Don't throw anything.

Regardless of what is eventually built, in my opinion, what does not need to be there is some infill development that is going to require acres of parking. For that reason I'm glad the hotel deal isn't going through. I could see a boutique retail/office space.

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#7 Jeriat

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 04:08 PM

Wow, that was fast! Don't throw anything.

Regardless of what is eventually built, in my opinion, what does not need to be there is some infill development that is going to require acres of parking. For that reason I'm glad the hotel deal isn't going through. I could see a boutique retail/office space.


Yeah, that was just my personal take on that spot.

Of all the open spaces in downtown, I just have a hard time seeing an actual building there...
Don't know why.

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#8 RD Milhollin

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:00 AM

Naw, this property has plenty of promise as the site of THE Fort Worth signature skyscraper. This would be the exact place that Dallas urban-dwelling high-rise telephoto sorts would focus on when shooting sunrise Fort Worth shots right down I-30. It would need to be tall so it could be seen from the next county over, say between 50 and 60 floors. And since it sits right next to one of the busiest rail intersections in the country it could skate on the existing name, without having to put the placid adjective and country-place noun names in a hat to draw from (i.e. Stoney Glen, Woody Field, etc.). The new high-rise could be dubbed TOWER 55!



#9 Dylan

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 12:37 AM

Not sure I like that idea. It would spread out our skyline even more.

 

Any new skyscraper should be between the Bass towers and the Omni when looking from the east or west.


-Dylan


#10 gdvanc

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 01:04 AM

It's really an odd piece of property. The shape is unique. You've got the railroad tracks and the highway flyover curving along one edge. You've got T&P's parking structure overlooking half of the south end. And you're bounded on the other sides by the north-bound lanes of a divided Main Street and the east-bound lanes of a divided Lancaster Ave... that get a little crazy as they pass along your northern boundary.

 

Looking at it from a bird's-eye view, it will take some good design to get the entrances and exits right if there's very much auto traffic at all. Worse if much of that traffic is from people unfamiliar with the area. Main Street is on a pretty interesting curve coming out of a tunnel shortly before the intersection, with your frontage being on a right-turn only lane where cars have to cross the dedicated bike lane. An entrance on this side is only convenient from the south, so traffic coming from any other direction is more likely to enter from Lancaster. It looks to me like exiting on the north side of the property you'll pretty much have difficulty going anywhere but onto that one east-bound Lancaster lane unless the curb cut is pretty close to the intersection.

 

And so if cars are a challenge, then make it a pedestrian-focused thing, right? I don't know. It seems too cut-off from anything else for that right now. It's on the fringe of downtown and it doesn't seem likely that will change any time soon, so as much as I like the idea of more well-programmed green space I think it would have to be something pretty special to get much traffic by foot or even by car given the challenges of the bordering streets. And I'd rather see that investment in opening up the south end of the Water Gardens. I also think those same access issues would make it difficult for a typical retail operation to be successful.

 

So off the cuff, my first suggestion would be office and/or residential as people who go there regularly will figure out the best ways in and out of the place.

 

Maybe a library; they don't get much traffic and it's always the same people.

 

Or fountains and other water features with no restrictions against letting your kids run amok all hours of the day. I'm sure people will figure out how to get there.

 

Or something involving bicycles. It looks friendlier to them than to cars or peds. Maybe a bicycle drive-in where they show movies like Breaking Away or... well, I guess there's just that one.



#11 McHand

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 07:48 PM

 

Maybe a library; they don't get much traffic and it's always the same people.

 

Or fountains and other water features with no restrictions against letting your kids run amok all hours of the day. I'm sure people will figure out how to get there.

 

Or something involving bicycles. It looks friendlier to them than to cars or peds. Maybe a bicycle drive-in where they show movies like Breaking Away or... well, I guess there's just that one.

 

That is some really creative thinking.  What about some sort of bike hub?  A bunch of B Cycle racks, some sort of ride-up refreshments like food/drink stand, or a cluster of them...just brainstorming here.  What would a cyclist want?

 

Even as a commercial space (perhaps with limited residential above), bike traffic should be considered and encouraged, for the reason mentioned above.  


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#12 Jeriat

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 08:22 PM

Not sure I like that idea. It would spread out our skyline even more.

 

Any new skyscraper should be between the Bass towers and the Omni when looking from the east or west.

 

Since he was using the Courier font, I think he was being sarcastic. 

But honestly, I don't have a problem with a spread out skyline. Skyscrapers in this city should stay away from the heart of it, anyway, since that's where are shorter, older, more "pedestrian friendly" buildings are. 


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#13 Dylan

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 09:19 PM

I completely disagree. A more spread out skyline would make our skyline look even more pathetic and boring than it does now.

 

As you know, a skyscraper can be designed to be pedestrian friendly.


-Dylan


#14 Jeriat

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Posted 23 July 2014 - 11:34 PM

I completely disagree. A more spread out skyline would make our skyline look even more pathetic and boring than it does now.
 
As you know, a skyscraper can be designed to be pedestrian friendly.

I know, but I'd rather have them spread out so it will feel more open and welcoming.

We only have 6 actual skyscrapers. That's really the only reason why it seems so spread out and boring. Honestly, no one would be saying this of we just had 3 more. Hell, just ONE tall skyscraper (more than 500') would make a difference.

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#15 gdvanc

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 12:35 AM

If someone wants to scrape the sky there, let them. It will only look spread out from some angles. It's not that far from the Omni. Plus it'll help block the view of the Sheraton from the highway.

 

Another idea for the lot is to look at working with T&P to add layers of parking to their existing structure spanning Main and to add ramps to the lot on the east side of Main. The buildings could share the parking and ramps, giving both more options in and out. If enough space is added, perhaps something more interesting could be done to the space in front of the T&P as well - although does the PO own part of that parking?

 

Anyway, we have our parking there. On the lot we have a B-Cycle station, a terminal and car barn for the Lancaster Ave. Trolley, a Segway Tour of Fort Worth station and a restaurant incubator on the ground floor of a signature building (the 55-floor Tour de Cinquante-Cinq) with a striking design that takes advantage of - nay, celebrates! - the odd-shaped lot. On floors 2 - 4 we have a culinary school. Above that many floors of aeroponics space supplying a dizzying variety of comestible plants to the culinary school and restaurant incubator. This will include space for a research lab and classes (joint project between various local institutions) in aeroponics and other leading-edge solutions to providing fresh clean food economically to densely populated regions. Oh, and let's ferment some wine and cheese in the basement. We'll add a few floors for a tech incubator focused on young companies developing innovative solutions to urban problems. The rest of the building will have space dedicated to some more really cool ideas I haven't had yet. The top will be a garden and observation deck with stunning views of downtown and the surrounding sprawl.

 

This is all so obvious I'm surprised it hasn't already happened.



#16 Dylan

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 01:55 AM

If a skyscraper were built on that lot, the skyline would be widened when viewed from the east and west. In the banner picture above, it would be to the right of the Omni (in other words, the camera would have to be panned to the right). When the Omni was built, it widened the skyline when viewing from the east or west. A tower on this lot, even if it were the tallest tower by hundreds of feet, would widen our skyline even more from the east / west, not fill in the existing skyline. If a new tower were built between the Bass towers and Omni, then it would fill in more of the skyline from the east / west instead of widening it.


-Dylan


#17 gdvanc

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:18 PM

I think the Fort can do just fine with or without a fantastic skyline. They look great on postcards and brochures, but they don't make a better city. If something with some height gets built there and John has to retake the banner photo, I'm okay with that. (Sorry, John.) If another tower or two gets built in a more central location to fill things in a bit more, having that new tower on the edge makes it that much better.

 

And if I wanted to build a vanity tower, that'd be a pretty good place for it because there is not likely to be anything built that blocks the view of it for like 330 degrees around. It'll stand out pretty much everywhere on I-35W and I-30. And it would have pretty good sightlines up Main & Commerce.

 

In the end, though, whether it makes the skyline better or worse is pretty subjective and that's about all I can think to say about it.

 

Back to the use of the parcel...

 

Maybe I'm more worked up about what I see as ingress/egress problems than I should be, but I've been trying to think of uses that would work with that if it is a problem.One option would be having traffic enter only on the Lancaster side and exit on the Main side. I can think of uses that would work for that but none of them are attractive. One thought is that if it is primarily associated with the business, activities or population downtown, then arriving from most of downtown and entering from east-bound Lancaster (by car or bike or shuttle or whatever) and then leaving on north-bound Main to return downtown isn't that big of a deal.

 

Another possibility is having uses that need space but have relatively few people or uses where the coming and going is spread out (like the Fort Worth skyline) and not necessarily peaking at peak traffic times.

 

Today's suggestion: a data center; technical classes; tech incubator; some sort of Fort Worth professional technical society thing; 24-hour virtual/on-demand office space; 24-hour meeting space; 24-hour Internet cafe. Still fermenting wine in the basement because I could use some right about now and still have the garden and outdoor casual gathering spot on the roof because every building should have that.

 

Lake-Flato designs the building.



#18 RD Milhollin

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 11:39 PM

 

Back to the use of the parcel...

 

Maybe I'm more worked up about what I see as ingress/egress problems than I should be, but I've been trying to think of uses that would work with that if it is a problem.One option would be having traffic enter only on the Lancaster side and exit on the Main side. I can think of uses that would work for that but none of them are attractive. One thought is that if it is primarily associated with the business, activities or population downtown, then arriving from most of downtown and entering from east-bound Lancaster (by car or bike or shuttle or whatever) and then leaving on north-bound Main to return downtown isn't that big of a deal.

 

A gas station?

 

(quote:) "Another possibility is having uses that need space but have relatively few people or uses where the coming and going is spread out (like the Fort Worth skyline) and not necessarily peaking at peak traffic times."

 

A gas well site?



#19 Austin55

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 03:11 AM

Just one tower? Why not two? Here's a pair of 515 footers on the lot. Perfect for a company who to consolidate all their offices or services. 

 

UPbeCpS.jpg

 

The banner view 

fpZkn2K.jpg

 

The "That spreads out the skyline a lot" view

MBOWJ7P.jpg

 

The "gee thats a lot of highways" view

3N21KcT.jpg

 

I'd love it if something like that ^ happened, but I'd be satisfied with something much less significant to. 



#20 cberen1

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 07:15 AM

If you did put something tall there, it would potentially become Fort Worth's Reunion Tower.  For a lot of people sitting in cars it would be the most visible building at the busiest intersection.  I don't know if that's a good thing, but if it was visually appealing, it would likely become the defining building of a skyline otherwise devoid of perticularly interesting sky scrapers.

 

Alternatively, I think there's an opportunity to do something on a small scale that's mirrored on the other side of Lancaster (in the Sheraton's backyard) to make it a gateway of sorts into the Lancaster corridor.  Something that visually anchors the East end of the corridor.  Giant twin statues, or something that follows the curve of the small circle in that intersection, or some quirky 5 story buildings on either side.  I don't know.  Just spitballin'.



#21 Jeriat

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:56 AM

I'm guessing the part in the middle would be a garage? If so, it may seem a little difficult getting in and out. Just from this angle, anyway.

 

I would be for it, though. If well designed, I'd take two high rises there.


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#22 Jeriat

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 09:42 PM

.... City Hall. 

 

Just thought about it while at work. That space has PLENTY of room for the main Municipal Building and its branches. 
City Hall, Texas Railroad Commission, Texas Workforce Commission, Water Department, Fire, Transportation... all but the Municipal Court, in one building. 

 

All of it on that one block. May even get a decent amount of height for it... maybe about 10 floors. 


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#23 RD Milhollin

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 11:45 PM

Parking Garage across I-30 facing Vickery Blvd., with ground floor retail of course... and residential above. A pair of horizontal elevators and a walkway/jogging path could connect to the main structure at about 6 stories up, 3 floors over the freeway. The architect could use a single-pole suspension design reminiscent of a Calatrava Bridge some where else...







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