22 replies to this topic

[Jeriat]

Fellow poster, renamerusk passed this idea down to me for a regional airport. There's an entire thread for it, but I thought I'd actually look at it, analyze, and design what it would look like if (and maybe when?) Carswell is no longer needed for just military purposes alone and could carry civilian activity. 

I mapped it just to get an idea of what I can do with it, and will give a couple of basic designs for what it could look like later on.

 

[Austin55]

What's wrong with expanding Meacham?

[renamerusk]

What's wrong with expanding Meacham?

 

A  Boeing 737 requires a minimum runway for take off or a landing of 7,166 ft.  According to the data that I could find, the longest runway at Meacham Field is 7,500 ft in length.

 

A  Boeing 737 requires a minimum runway for take off or a landing of 7,166 ft.

 

I am assuming that 334 ft, the amount of runway to spare, is too much of a safety and operational risk to make Meacham Field a strong candidate for commercial aviation.  To upgrade Meacham’s assets to reduce the risk will be very expensive.    Alliance is probably a stronger candidate than Meacham as it has newer infrastructure assets; but its primary drawback is that it is in Denton County.

 

IMO, Carswell is the strongest of the three potential candidates as it has the longest runway of the three as well as the greatest amount of aviation assets already in place of the three; and like Meacham Field is at least located within Tarrant County, a major consideration for me.  One other assumption is that Carswell’s assets probably equal those at either DFW or Love Field.  

 

Runway length needed by aircraft:

 

http://www.airportsi..._Rwy-Length.pdf

[Doohickie]

Do you anticipate the NAS/JRB closing down anytime soon?

[johnfwd]

Do you anticipate the NAS/JRB closing down anytime soon?

This, of course, is a good point.   Would the Pentagon be willing to lease its facilities for a regional airport?  Not likely.   Or are we talking about the purchase of the entire base if the Naval Air Station vacates the property.  Conceivably, the latter could happen if Congress does not resolve the issues that threaten major cuts in the defense budget.  

[youngalum]

NASJRB will never be a commercial airport--too much money around there to the east and southwest that will never allow that to happen.  People can deal with military noise, commercial will never happen as that crosses the line.

 

If anything, an airport west of I30 and I20 interchange is more likely or south of there.  That is a minimum 20-30 years away.

[Jeriat]

Do you anticipate the NAS/JRB closing down anytime soon?

 

Well I don't. 

 

In fact, I didn't even really know anything about downsizing anything in the military until just recently. 

Just another "what if", basically. 
 

[urbancowboy]

I like your set up.  Intuitvely, I would think that the best access point to the aiport would be from Spur 317 that leads to Lockheed now.  That way you would have direct access to I-30. But I suppose you could tunnel underneath to connect to your terminal, and it  your concept would be easier to connect to lightrail.  I love having the hotels near the lake front.

[renamerusk]

Do you anticipate the NAS/JRB closing down anytime soon?

 

 

.... Would the Pentagon be willing to lease its facilities for a regional airport?  Not likely.   Or are we talking about the purchase of the entire base if the Naval Air Station vacates the property.

 

 

NASJRB will never be a commercial airport-- People can deal with military noise, commercial will never happen as that crosses the line....If anything, an airport west of I30 and I20 interchange is more likely or south of there.  That is a minimum 20-30 years away.

 

Doohickie,

 

Politics make it is difficult to anticipate that NAS/JRB will be closing down anytime very soon, but there will come a time when it will be significantly reduce along with other installations as the military shifts its focus away from costly bombers and jets and more towards cyber tactics, the militarization of space, and unmanned technology to defend the country. All this is but a guess on my part, but it does seem we are headed in that direction.  If there is going to be a mission remaining for Carswell, it will probably be as a regional base to support emergency response operations in the Gulf Coast Region.

 

I mainly view the current discussion about Carswell as a much needed discussion about possible contingency plans for the installation that ought to be underway by Fort Worth.

 

Johnfwd,

 

Suggesting that the city would be required to lease the facilities is tantamount to believing that Texas leases the portion of the interstate highway system within its borders; it does not happen the way that you are envisioning.  Historically, the Federal Government typically deeds or transfers its surplus property to local and state government for the technical and legal nominal fee of $1.00 or such, and then only after cleaning up the facility according to EPA and DOD guidelines.  Even though a total transfer of the installation is possible, it is not necessary.  The installation can continue to operate militarily, industrially (Lockheed Martin) and add a commercial component by providing civil aviation to the region.  This use of the installation would seem a wise and efficient use of some very valuable property regardless of its ultimate fate.  Of course, the final decision will always be made by the DOD and not by state or local officials.  The prudent thing to do is for the local community to have a viable contingency plan for any scenario.

 

And finally youngalum,

 

I seriously question that there will never be a commercial airport at the current NAS/JRB installation.  Its as if you can prove a negative.  And, I seriously question the assumption that commercial noise crosses the line; for evidence to disprove that assumption, one only needs to cite Love Field in Dallas; or the assumption that commercial aircraft are inherently noisy  ignores that today’s commercial aircrafts are rapidly being replaced with a new generation of quieter airplanes.

 

As for an airport west of  I20 & I30, presumably in Parker County, that WILL NEVER happen in 20-30 years or beyond.  Even the best projections for the growth in population of Parker County are inadequate to support or create demand for a regional airport.  Parker County will retain its rural character far into the 21st Century.

 

 

Keep Fort Worth folksy

[Jeriat]

I like your set up.  Intuitvely, I would think that the best access point to the aiport would be from Spur 317 that leads to Lockheed now.  That way you would have direct access to I-30. But I suppose you could tunnel underneath to connect to your terminal, and it  your concept would be easier to connect to lightrail.  I love having the hotels near the lake front.

Thank you. 

I was thinking of coming off Alta Mere as a main entrance, but like I said, I'm still just seeing what I can do with the layout. 

[youngalum]

And finally youngalum,

 

I seriously question that there will never be a commercial airport at the current NAS/JRB installation.  Its as if you can prove a negative.  And, I seriously question the assumption that commercial noise crosses the line; for evidence to disprove that assumption, one only needs to cite Love Field in Dallas; or the assumption that commercial aircraft are inherently noisy  ignores that today’s commercial aircrafts are rapidly being replaced with a new generation of quieter airplanes.

 

As for an airport west of  I20 & I30, presumably in Parker County, that WILL NEVER happen in 20-30 years or beyond.  Even the best projections for the growth in population of Parker County are inadequate to support or create demand for a regional airport.  Parker County will retain its rural character far into the 21st Century.

 

 

Keep Fort Worth folksy

People live with military jet noise because it would be considered unpatriotic to state otherwise in a well organized fashion.  Make it a profitable enterprise that is making that noise and all hell breaks loose. 

 

If anything, the NASJRB should be repurposed like Austin's old military base.

 

Finally, I said a new airport west of Fort Worth might be an option later in 20-30 years,  A whole heck of a lot can happen in that time frame and to actually think that Parker County, Wise County and Johnson County are going to remain rural forever is naive.  That same type of thinking about the rural location and nothing else around it was also a prevailing thought n the late 60's and early 70's when DFW was built.

[cjyoung]

I know FWA is partially in Denton County, but I think it is the best option.

[Jeriat]

Carswell (2nd option w/ military base still intact) 

 

[renamerusk]

Finally, I said a new airport west of Fort Worth might be an option later in 20-30 years,  A whole heck of a lot can happen in that time frame and to actually think that Parker County, Wise County and Johnson County are going to remain rural forever is naive.  That same type of thinking about the rural location and nothing else around it was also a prevailing thought n the late 60's and early 70's when DFW was built.

 

During the time, I understood that the prevailing thought for why DFW was built where it is was to find a compromising location of equal distance between the two large cities in the region; and not the projected population of the Mid-Cities.  The actual growth of the Mid-Cities was a result of this compromise and other factors.  When DFW was built in 1960-70, neither Dallas or Tarrant Counties or the Mid-Cities/Irving areas which are within these two counties were rural.

 

Today the population per square mile in Dallas and Tarrant Counties are 2, 718 and 2,094 respectively.  For Johnson, Parker and Wise Counties, the population per square mile are 208.3, 129.4 and 65.4 respectively.  Dallas and Tarrant Counties are urban and have been for decades; Johnson, Parker and Wise Counties are not urban and have remained that way for decades. They will experience growth, but nothing nearly approaching the mass that is needed to support a regional airport.

 

I know FWA is partially in Denton County, but I think it is the best option.

 

Two things to consider:

 

I suggest that a Denton County location would be a political non-starter for Tarrant County efforts to retain the tax and property valuations and jobs within its jurisdiction; and as a Tarrant County taxpayer, I would be non supportive of that plan along with many other reasons to not favor Alliance.

 

I suggest that the Fort Worth Alliance (FWA) option does not address the situation that would occur if NAS/JRB is radically downsized or closed.  The issue is really not about FWA and its potential; it is about replacing NAS/JRB with something viable should it closes and the potential to avoid a economic blow to Western/Southwestern Tarrant County.

[youngalum]

Finally, I said a new airport west of Fort Worth might be an option later in 20-30 years,  A whole heck of a lot can happen in that time frame and to actually think that Parker County, Wise County and Johnson County are going to remain rural forever is naive.  That same type of thinking about the rural location and nothing else around it was also a prevailing thought n the late 60's and early 70's when DFW was built.

 

During the time, I understood that the prevailing thought for why DFW was built where it is was to find a compromising location of equal distance between the two large cities in the region; and not the projected population of the Mid-Cities.  The actual growth of the Mid-Cities was a result of this compromise and other factors.  When DFW was built in 1960-70, neither Dallas or Tarrant Counties or the Mid-Cities/Irving areas which are within these two counties were rural.

 

Today the population per square mile in Dallas and Tarrant Counties are 2, 718 and 2,094 respectively.  For Johnson, Parker and Wise Counties, the population per square mile are 208.3, 129.4 and 65.4 respectively.  Dallas and Tarrant Counties are urban and have been for decades; Johnson, Parker and Wise Counties are not urban and have remained that way for decades. They will experience growth, but nothing nearly approaching the mass that is needed to support a regional airport.

In an effort to be so right on the topic that you are now suggesting that a new airport would serve only those counties?  Good lord.  A reliever airport, which it would be, would serve the whole WESTERN side of the region, not just specific counties.  This isn't rocket science.

 

I will say it once again, NASJRB will never be a commercial airport for the Western side of the metroplex.  It will never happen with the money and influence stopping the tremendous increase in air traffic noise that would occur.  If you cannot appreciate that little tidbit, then you don't understand Fort Worth at all.

 

If there is ever a need for another reliever airport, it will be built west of NASJRB.

[renamerusk]

 A whole heck of a lot can happen in that time frame and to actually think that Parker County, Wise County and Johnson County are going to remain rural forever is naive.

 

In an effort to be so right on the topic that you are now suggesting that a new airport would serve only those counties?  Good lord.  A reliever airport, which it would be, would serve the whole WESTERN side of the region, not just specific counties.  This isn't rocket science.....I will say it once again, NASJRB will never be a commercial airport for the Western side of the metroplex.  It will never happen with the money and influence stopping the tremendous increase in air traffic noise that would occur.  If you cannot appreciate that little tidbit, then you don't understand Fort Worth at all....If there is ever a need for another reliever airport, it will be built west of NASJRB.

 

My only effort has been to begin the discussion of what would be a prudent use of NASJRB; a discussion that I began more than a year ago when I could see the federal sequester coming down the pike which will trigger massive cuts in defense and domestic spending.  Fort Worth is fortunate that an excellent federal property within its jurisdiction could be reused or enhanced with a nominal investment that in turn could generate an exponential amount in returns.

 

Agreed, it isn’t rocket science, but it does require one to cite data to support ones position.

 

For the record, Johnson, Parker and Wise Counties were initially cited in your remarks;  I simply provided data to demonstrate that they are rural and that they have by no means the necessary mass to support even public transportation, let alone, a regional airport. 

 

I consider myself very Tarrant County centric and feel that I understand Fort Worth and Tarrant County reasonably well; and I am of the belief that it does have the demographics and resources to support a regional airport right now.

 

Now would be an excellent the time for you to cite the data or known public resistance that supports  your statement that a regional airport can never happen at the current NASJRB location; and that it will happen west of there.

 

Nor have you yet to cite any data or public resistance that supports the “noise and money” issues that you say will stop a regional airport or would stop one from coexisting with the current industrial and military uses of NASJRB today.  I think the jobs generated from a regional airport would be a very strong argument.  I also think that the dynamics have changed since the opening of DFW Intl. and the original agreement has been nullified.

 

Until very recently, I held interest in a business in the Cedar Springs/Lemmon Avenue corridor of Dallas.  If you know Dallas at all, you know that this is the primary southern approach and departure zone for Love Field.  For from being annoyances, SWA flights go almost unnoticed; instead, the most annoying noise routinely comes from the constant din of traffic and the ear piercing noise of fire trucks and EMS trucks.  None of these noises slowed the pace of business or residential activity in the area, in fact, that corridor has some of the highest office rental rates and residential rates in Dallas.  The Love Field experience is anecdotal, but it is also a reality.

[Jeriat]

(The terminal base comes from the Armstrong Airport in New Orleans) 

 

Scenario 1: NAS/JRB is no longer a military base. 

 

Coming into the main entrance from Alta Mere. 

 

 

Parking garage on the south end

 

 

Terminal and other passenger related facilities. 

 

 

 

5 hotels. (2 major suite hotels, 1 Hampton Inn, 1 Doubletree, 1, "affordable" hotel)

 

[renamerusk]

NASJRB will never be a commercial airport--

 

My instincts are that Fort Worth has been understandably differential towards American Airlines and has been waiting for the airline to reveal its new business plan.

 

For the record, AA is gradually decoupling its alliance with it American Eagle and the marginally low returns associated with many of those regional market; and is indicating that AA new focus will be to concentrate on the more profitable Top 20 business markets, corporate accounts and international travel. 

 

If AA is no longer interested in regional markets, than Fort Worth can now lure other regional carriers to a potential NASJRB-FW airport.  Sooner or later, hopefully much sooner, Fort Worth will be lead to the water; and then hopefully she will drink! 

 

FYI, here is how the Military to Civilian Conversion Program operates.  This year Wichita Falls became the latest city to join in Joint Military and Civilian FAA program.

 

http://www.faa.gov/a...irport_program/

[Volare]

What's wrong with expanding Meacham?

 

A  Boeing 737 requires a minimum runway for take off or a landing of 7,166 ft.  According to the data that I could find, the longest runway at Meacham Field is 7,500 ft in length.

 

A  Boeing 737 requires a minimum runway for take off or a landing of 7,166 ft.

...

 

As a 737 pilot, I can assure you that the figures you found for 737 capabilites are wrong. Meacham field is plenty long for the 737, especially if they will be operating on more regional length routes (less than 5 hrs). As a comparison, both runways at LGA (New York - Laguardia) are exactly 7,000 feet long, and three of the four runway ends are in the bay. 737s routinely take off from LGA and travel 4-5 hours with a full load of passengers.

 

There may be many reasons FTW isn't favored for air service in this area, but short runways isn't one of them.

[renamerusk]

.... Meacham field is plenty long for the 737, especially if they will be operating on more regional length routes (less than 5 hrs). ....There may be many reasons FTW isn't favored for air service in this area, but short runways isn't one of them.

 

The source of my information can be found in my earlier post#3 of this thread.  I relied, it appears in error, upon a report issued for the Rhode Island Airport Corporation.  I accept that your line of work makes you more an authority on this issue than many of us, particularly myself.

 

Both Meacham Field and Alliance Airport are routinely suggested to be preferable sites for an eventual regional airport for Fort Worth; even though neither will be materially affected by the immediate impending 2013 Federal Sequester Process.  There seems to be no current conversation that I am aware of to suggest that either Meacham or Alliance will be impacted by federal budget cuts; however, there is a plausible threat that Carswell NAS/JRB, along with many other military installations, could be targeted from an across the board cut in defense spending.  For this reason, I have only focused my attention on the future and the potential of Carswell NAS/JRB

 

There was a time in the aviation history of Fort Worth that the city had its own air service. Then came the politics of the time followed with a compromise to address the issue of air service for this region mandating the abdication of Fort Worth's exclusive air service. To suggest that may be many reasons that Fort Worth is not favored for air service is not only a misinterpretation of local history, but is also an underestimation of the matrices of the city; and is a feverishly inexhaustible debate.

[Volare]

When I stated "There may be many reasons FTW isn't favored for air service..." I was using FTW as the FAA identifier for Meacham field, not FTW as in Fort Worth the City. My apologies for the confusion.

[Jeriat]

Scenario 2: NAS/JRB is split as both a military base AND commercial airport. 

 

Since the base would stay intact for the most part, the commercial part of the airport would take place on the southern end of the base and be smaller. 

 

Everything would be much closer together. Actually, this would be the most dense part of the airport.

 

 

Terminal

 

 

[RD Milhollin]

There is a new commander at NAS Fort Worth, and the outgoing chief says there is "room for growth" but doesn't mention commercial aviation:

 

http://www.star-tele...le31168001.html

 

Additional commands would no doubt boost the reported $2.3 billion impact on the local economy. As the cities surrounding the base grow there will be a constant temptation to allow inappropriate development around the perimeter of the installation, such as more schools and housing in the flight paths. I would think there is some sort of master development plan in place to limit what sorts of uses can be placed within those high-impact areas.