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Baseball's Black Thursday is looming


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#1 Tony

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 11:29 PM

It is going to be a sad, sad day for baseball fans tomorrow. I think everybody assumes by now that a whole mess of MLB players are juicing, but once this Mitchell report is released I think the reality is going to be a bit more stunning ... or, at least, I hope it isn't. As a lifelong baseball fan (listened to George Kell and Ernie Harwell on Detroit radio), it will be heartbreaking to discover some players who were dishonest. I think I'll go have a beer and ponder the good 'ole days when baseball was clean and they just got really drunk and obnoxious after the games at some local pub like the rest of us schmucks (sp?).

#2 safly

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Posted 12 December 2007 - 11:51 PM

Though I will agree, I hope this BLACK THURSDAY turns into a RED SEASON for MLB, as " IN THE RED". All those ticketholders deserve their hard earned money back for decades!. I know it will be only 60-80 players mentioned, but this report was all done without anyone being under oath. I can only imagine.

The MLB scam lost me a long time ago, just by the mere fact that they are all in the SHOW together, especially with their disgusting PLAYERS UNION having THEIR way with OUR GAME.

I say good riddance to those "non athletic cry babies". THE ONLY sport (or occupation for that matter) where they will allow a guy to break the substance abuse (cocaine) policy 6 or 7 TIMES and still be allowed on the mound again that season, and SUCCESFULLY appeal a lifetime ban from the sport. wacko.gif In fact, he was a Michigan man, so you probably know about him too (Howe?). dry.gif This sport at the ML level will always help shape some of the BIGGEST JACK-HOLES and NON-TEAM players on the planet IMO.

Some might expect to hear names like Clemens, Griffey, Thigpen, Bonds, Juan Gonzalez, Brady Anderson, Strawberry, Cone and Brandon Larson (played against) in that report. Just be ready baseball fans.

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 08:35 AM

Just hoping Jeter and A Rod not on list, I hear Joe Girardi may be.

#4 safly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 09:29 AM

I can see Girardi, he needed the leg up badly.

I just hope THE Nolan Ryan is not on that list, even though he did allude to thanking his trainer with introducing him to the age reversing "process", during his HoF induction speech. I'm not saying that he did take it, but if he did I would think that he wouldn't KNOWINGLY have taken it. Like that CREAM they keep talking about.

Probably see Big FRANK Thomas, Caminitti (known), Bagwell and Biggio. These players from the early 90's just looked completely different within a 9 year span. Baseball players from the past (beyond the 80's) never went through a metamorphisis quite like that.

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#5 JBB

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 09:48 AM

If a tree falls in a forest and nobody cares, does it still make a sound?

Rampant steroid use has been no secret over the past few years and fans are still showing up in record numbers. I don't think this report is going to tell anyone anything they didn't already know. Until MLB finds a commissioner who cares about preserving the image of the game and has the stones to break the back of the union, nothing is going to change. And if fans don't speak with their wallet, why would anyone bother doing that?

#6 pallen

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 10:20 AM

Unfortunately, I think JBB is right. The bulk of the fans are bothered by it a little, but would rather just not know and let things go on. When its brought up, people just want it to blow over and get back to baseball.

#7 cjyoung

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 10:51 AM

All of the names won't be revealed today. Most people don't know that Carl Lewis took and tested positive for steroids and a bunch of other stuff.

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 12:48 PM

Any player that used any substance that was not at the time declared illegal by MLB or US law did nothing wrong imo.

It takes more than steroids or hgh to swing a bat the way Bonds does, all the steroids in the world wouldn't put me in the same league as an MLB player either on or off steroids.

The truly sad part about this entire incident is that Congress is involved at all. I just don't understand what it has to do with the government, it's not like they don't have more pressing maters to attend to even if it was their business. I'd like to see Congress give as much time and interest in spending a million dollar per minute more than they take in.

#9 JBB

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:07 PM

A total of 14 or so former or current Rangers are mentioned in the report, more than any other team in baseball from what I've read. If that's not proof that performance enhancing drugs will get you nowhere...

#10 pallen

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE(concretist @ Dec 13 2007, 12:48 PM) View Post

...The truly sad part about this entire incident is that Congress is involved at all. I just don't understand what it has to do with the government, it's not like they don't have more pressing maters to attend to even if it was their business. I'd like to see Congress give as much time and interest in spending a million dollar per minute more than they take in.

That has bothered me from the beginning. I dont like the idea of a government that can butt its nose into private affairs anytime they think it might give them some good press or whatever the motivation. I mean, if the whole of MLB went down the toilet tomorrow, it wouldnt exactly destroy the economy, or destabilize a region of the world or cause much more than a lot of journalistic activity.

#11 safly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:51 PM

Alright, MLB made a clean $6 Billion in revenues last year. Partly because of Dice-K and online merchandise, WSeries with Boston AGAIN. So it does matter, it's an Anti-Trust suit matter in the effect that fans should not be given a false product of CLEAN baseball. MLB and the PAssoc. will be proven to have been in on it from the beginning.

Players have waged their salaries and contracts because of these inflated numbers and NEW ballparks OBVIOUSLY linked to these sports performance enhancing drugs. Who totes that note? YOU DO! The common hard workin man who has had their heart set on this wonderful dream of a sport since childhood.

If it was some amateur adult busch league with no written bylaws then Mitchell has no right to interfere, but from a profe$$ional product to consumer standpoint, THE GOVERNMENT has EVERY right to step in. Unfortunately, the chief of that 3 ring circus is a HUGE baseball fan and former owner of a MLB club. One that is not looking to good right now with this report.

When you know of a HS athlete that will do ANYTHING to get a scholarship or DRAFTED into the ML's and OFFS himself because of the horrible side effects from these drugs, then come back here and let me know what you think.

JBB, let's reflect back on that AMAZING playoff run year by the Rangers back in the 90's. That's crucial, because that will give you some insight on exactly how effective this stuff is in a sport where little athletic ability is needed, just skill. That playoff run was mysteriously haulted due to a players strike, some have even suggested that it was about this very thing, but not to fix it or eliminate the problem, but rather to MAKE A DEAL with the devil (MLB/Players Assoc) and really take the typical season ticket holder, advertisers, networks and even some cities for a memorable ride.

Those Ranger players have gone off to other clubs and done quite well for themselves.

HGH and steroids, along with a PSYCHO-LIKE workout regimen will get you about 50 or 60 homers a year, with intentional walks factored. It's just ridiculous how a few players could have imagined NOT GETTING CAUGHT with such outrageous numbers being crushed year after year. That STUFF plus some KILLER weight programs will give you unheard of BATSPEED, and that my friends is KEY to longevity and POWER as a hitter (with already above average vision and batspeed) at the ML level.

I'm happy right now, partly because I won a bet about Knoblauch,Hundley and Vaughn.

And if it is happening at this level, it is most likely happening at the minor league too, especially with the Independent clubs. I think there is even one in our own backyard???
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#12 safly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 02:58 PM

QUOTE(concretist @ Dec 13 2007, 12:48 PM) View Post

Any player that used any substance that was not at the time declared illegal by MLB or US law did nothing wrong imo.

It takes more than steroids or hgh to swing a bat the way Bonds does, all the steroids in the world wouldn't put me in the same league as an MLB player either on or off steroids.

The truly sad part about this entire incident is that Congress is involved at all. I just don't understand what it has to do with the government, it's not like they don't have more pressing maters to attend to even if it was their business. I'd like to see Congress give as much time and interest in spending a million dollar per minute more than they take in.



Not so much the drug itself as it is the process of GETTING HOLD OF IT!

What has been going on in the acquiring of these performance enhancing drugs is the definite ILLEGALITY presented here. Quite a network. I would be suspect of any ballplayer that has played in a foreign country ballclub (Canada) and has had made remarkable comebacks in their careers. And that playes for a team near the borders of this country. Hard to trace a transaction in Toronto, Montreal or Mexi-Cali area (near San Diego/AZ vicinity). But easy to get a hold of this stuff.
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#13 Tony

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 06:19 PM

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in terms of any criminal prosecutions (after all, selling steroids they way it's done with athletes is no different than selling crack cocaine, legally) and what impact it might have on player perceptions for Hall of Fame voting. I listened to the whole statement by former Sen. Mitchell and I thought it was a pretty scathing depiction of the sport. Like I said earlier, it is a sad, sad day. I mean, I'm not naive, I know players like Sammy Sosa just don't go from 155 pounds to a 250-pound monster. But it really tarnishes a game that I've always cherished. There is something sacred about baseball and baseball records.

#14 safly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 06:29 PM

Baseball lost it's chance to be sacred after the players strike in '95, and when PAY-ROD got his Tom Hicks deal. GAGG!

It's not a sport at that level, it's a business, just happens to be with a bunch of crybabies with beer guts (David Wells)or shredded anabolic physiques (Gabe Kapler). Who have NO business getting paid what they get!

Gotta go get a twinkie for tonight. GLUED to ESPN.

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#15 Hambone

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 06:40 PM

The Federal Government is NOT involved in this investigation. Mitchell is a former senator, now working as a lawyer at DLA Piper conducting an independent investigation at the request of Bud Selig.

#16 safly

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Posted 13 December 2007 - 11:24 PM

Which is perfect, because what lawyer or player is gonna go after a DLA Piper chairman/lawyer?

I like that the investigation is ongoing or inconclusive at this time. Tip of the iceberg.
It gives players being implicated more time to goof up and slip or make a deal. Dirty RATS.

BTW, I think that was the strike of '94?

I wouldn't mind the DEA getting involved in this one.

Just imagine how low the stat numbers will be in '08. It's gonna start looking like real baseball (80's style) all over again.
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#17 Tony

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 10:08 AM

QUOTE(safly @ Dec 13 2007, 06:29 PM) View Post



Cherish MLBaseball??? Why bother putting yourself through that? conf.gif



Yes "cherish." I grew up watching the late 1960s and early 1970s Detroit Tigers before, I hope, this steroids thing hit. Some of my most-fond memories were of games at (old) Tiger Stadium and that one-of-a-kind taste that the ballpark hotdogs had - something about those greasy, metal rollers. I think they soaked 20-year-old grease into those dogs ... mmmmmm hot dogs. So, I thought highly of some of those players of the day, e.g. Al Kaline.

#18 bhudson

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 10:53 AM

To echo and expand on Tony's comments: The unethical players are tarnished, not the sport, and especially not the history of the sport. It is because I cherish baseball (baseball as it should be, and has been for 95% of its history), that I'm happy to see it purged of cheats. I'm not sad at all, I think it's a great day.

Some people profess that they apparently can't find anything good in the institution of baseball at all. It is a stupid sport that is past its time, the players are overpaid, and they all cheat, blah blah blah. I find it odd then, that these people waste their time to speak up and spew jaded comments.

This investigation was initiated and funded by MLB. As far as government involvement, the only thing the steroid scandal has to do with government is the little fact that our laws that have been broken. When the hell did that become trivial? I think it reflects very poorly on the current moral and ethical standards of our country that steroid use became prevalent, no one cared enough to stop it for over a decade, and now: I repeatedly hear some version of the question "What's the problem?". The problem is staring you in the face: In this country, it is socially acceptable to cheat. To excel, you have to cheat. You will generally not be punished if you cheat. And if someone tries to stop you from cheating, they're out of line and should mind their own business. WHAT?!? And this philosophy is not restricted to sport. This isn't a steroid scandal. It is a cheating scandal, and it is reflective of our society. Academic fraud? OK. Stealing ideas to get ahead at work? OK. Lying on your tax return? OK. And for me to say it is wrong and should be stopped makes me a complete anachronism, at the ridiculous age of 32.

#19 cjyoung

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 02:23 PM

QUOTE(concretist @ Dec 13 2007, 12:48 PM) View Post

The truly sad part about this entire incident is that Congress is involved at all. I just don't understand what it has to do with the government, it's not like they don't have more pressing maters to attend to even if it was their business. I'd like to see Congress give as much time and interest in spending a million dollar per minute more than they take in.


Congress isn't involved...yet.

I'd like to see the FBI arrest some of these guys illegal buying steroids over the Internet or with fake prescriptions.

#20 cjyoung

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 02:25 PM

QUOTE(concretist @ Dec 13 2007, 08:35 AM) View Post

Just hoping Jeter and A Rod not on list, I hear Joe Girardi may be.


A-Rod and Pudge will come out in the Albany DA investigation.

#21 JBB

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 03:10 PM

QUOTE(cjyoung @ Dec 14 2007, 02:23 PM) View Post

Congress isn't involved...yet.


Were the Congressional hearings in March of 2005 a mirage?

#22 bhudson

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Dec 14 2007, 03:10 PM) View Post

QUOTE(cjyoung @ Dec 14 2007, 02:23 PM) View Post

Congress isn't involved...yet.


Were the Congressional hearings in March of 2005 a mirage?


No, but they were a part of a separate investigation. One of many. More correct would be to say that congress was not involved in this commissioned report.


#23 JKC

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 04:48 PM

Yuck, what a dirty feeling I get when I think of that list. I was particularly disappointed to see a friends' name on the list.

Albeit late, I would have to comment that the whole steroids issue is of serious concern to me personally as I have a HS Senior son who is desperately working to get a scholarship to play baseball somewhere. After hearing the "you need to put on 20lbs" comment enough, these kids start looking for way to do it and they see it (steroids) all around them.

I realize there is more than one perspective on whether it was right or wrong but mine is definitely that it is wrong. It makes athletics more like auto-racing in that whoever has the best techo-enhancement, gets an edge. There is no question that it dramatically changes a players' ability and it puts players on the field who would not be there otherwise. IMO.

I wonder if this signals tough times for baseball.

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Posted 14 December 2007 - 05:21 PM

QUOTE(bhudson @ Dec 14 2007, 03:44 PM) View Post

QUOTE(JBB @ Dec 14 2007, 03:10 PM) View Post

QUOTE(cjyoung @ Dec 14 2007, 02:23 PM) View Post

Congress isn't involved...yet.


Were the Congressional hearings in March of 2005 a mirage?


No, but they were a part of a separate investigation. One of many. More correct would be to say that congress was not involved in this commissioned report.


This issue is before us today because Congress became involved in 2005 when the Government Reform Committee decided steroid use in MLB fell under the purview of the legislature since the use of performance enhancing drugs is governed by federal statute (Federal Controlled Substances Act) and under the Commerce Clause. In the past Congress has invoked this power to MLB benefit, when it exempted the industry from the normal operation of federal antitrust law.

The new Congressional House Oversight and Government Reform in Congress will begin next week, I think on Tuesday. What a waste of time and money! Anyone who wishes to hold office should be disqualified from running. There hasn't been 10 really virtuous politicians since Cicero. That's an average of 1 every 2.5 centuries. Sound about right?

#25 cjyoung

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Posted 17 December 2007 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE(concretist @ Dec 14 2007, 05:21 PM) View Post

This issue is before us today because Congress became involved in 2005 when the Government Reform Committee decided steroid use in MLB fell under the purview of the legislature since the use of performance enhancing drugs is governed by federal statute (Federal Controlled Substances Act) and under the Commerce Clause. In the past Congress has invoked this power to MLB benefit, when it exempted the industry from the normal operation of federal antitrust law.

The new Congressional House Oversight and Government Reform in Congress will begin next week, I think on Tuesday. What a waste of time and money! Anyone who wishes to hold office should be disqualified from running. There hasn't been 10 really virtuous politicians since Cicero. That's an average of 1 every 2.5 centuries. Sound about right?


Actually, this issue gained steam in the Summer of 2003 when Trevor Graham gave the USADA a tip and a used syringe containing THG, provided by Balco. THG had previously been undetectable.

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 10:48 PM

Your tax dollars hard at work:

http://www6.comcast....gress.Steroids/

#27 texastrill

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Posted 19 December 2007 - 12:30 PM

Maybe MLB will open the *Astricks Wing* in Cooperstown.

Oh,and GO COWBOYS!!!!!!
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#28 cjyoung

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE(texastrill @ Dec 19 2007, 12:30 PM) View Post

Maybe MLB will open the *Astricks Wing* in Cooperstown.

Oh,and GO COWBOYS!!!!!!


Go Spurs! tongue.gif

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 11:14 AM

Fascinating debate today in Congress, we’ve spent the last thirty minutes debating whether or not Roger Clemens developed an abscess on his butt from a steroid injection. Glad Congress doesn’t have anything more important to do…

#30 safly

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 11:56 AM

THIS stuff is GREAT!

The ROCKET, POSSIBLY tampering with who may be a STAR WITNESS!

Clemens is and has always been an ASS. Abcess aside.

The debate about that had more to do with what may have developed that abcess. B12? Or ROIDS? And the MRI inspection and conclusions of two medical experts.

Lunch break for now. THIS IS AWESOME! And can only get worse for this jerk. It's what he gets for taping the phone conversation with McNamee and airing the laundry out at a press conf. Poor guys sick kid was involved too.

HAPPY DAYS. wink.gif
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