Modern Streetcar Dead (?)
#51
Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:51 PM
Pete Charlton
The Fort Worth Gazette blog
The Lost Antique Maps of Fort Worth on CDROM
Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
#52
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:39 PM
#53
Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:23 PM
Pete Charlton
The Fort Worth Gazette blog
The Lost Antique Maps of Fort Worth on CDROM
Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
#54
Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:49 PM
Will the money spent on these "streetcars" by FW get recouped?
#55
Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:52 PM
http://www.fortworth...ation/heliport/
I would add this to "horse arena" as something the mayor and council will have a lot to explain to the street car constituents. Interestingly enough, Fort Worth cites Portland, Oregon as a city having a heliport....Hmmmm!
#56
Posted 06 January 2011 - 10:31 AM
#57
Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:27 PM
I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.
They are using part of Lockheed's Montgomery St. facility parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.
I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.
#58
Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:56 PM
They are using Lockheed's parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.
I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.
They are using part of Lockheed's Montgomery St. facility parking lot for VIP transport to the super bowl festivities.
I didn't see anything in that S-T link about Montgomery.
http://www.star-tele...cil-briefs.html
#59
Posted 17 January 2011 - 07:24 AM
Heliport proposed for I-30 @ Montgomery Street - this is and was news to me.
http://www.fortworth...ation/heliport/
I would add this to "horse arena" as something the mayor and council will have a lot to explain to the street car constituents. Interestingly enough, Fort Worth cites Portland, Oregon as a city having a heliport....Hmmmm!
It quotes the Dallas heliport as one that is in use, but as a downtown resident/worker who is near the convention center often, I have never seen this in use. This smells of pure pork.
#60
Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:00 PM
I suspect the temporary version was a plan to respond to Super Bowl demand, had it been needed.
#61
Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:04 PM
http://www.kfor.com/...0,7768204.story
http://www.newsok.com/article/3555655
#62
Posted 19 May 2011 - 10:19 PM
http://www.fwweekly....olis&Itemid=377
Remember "The Streetcar!"
#63
Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:01 PM
http://www.star-tele...oes-modern.html
Keep Fort Worth folksy.
#64
Posted 30 September 2011 - 12:04 PM
I agree, but the article you cite reflects not just “anti-streetcar bias,” but also anti-rail bias. To be honest, I for one hate buses. And I don’t believe even larger buses holding more people is the answer to lessening arterial traffic congestion. These vehicles merely join the bumper-to-bumper party out there, in my opinion. In fact, I believe larger buses, just like the big semi’s, not only add to congestion they are a traffic safety hazard.The last line in today's Star Telegram "New Bus Route" story has an "I can't help it" anti-streetcar bias for which I have to say leaves me searching for answers; and keeps me from subscribing to their paper. Why does the S-T allow its Arlington/ NE Tarrant County Bureau to present the newspaper's editorial lead for the Lancaster Avenue Bus Route? Why not have Bud Kennedy or Mitch Schnurman write the opinion, either in whom I find more credibility than I find in Mike Norman when the subject is Fort Worth?
http://www.star-tele...oes-modern.html
Keep Fort Worth folksy.
#65
Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:31 PM
http://blog.oregonli..._region_st.html
#66
Posted 30 September 2011 - 07:32 PM
... I don’t believe even larger buses holding more people is the answer to lessening arterial traffic congestion. These vehicles merely join the bumper-to-bumper party out there, in my opinion. In fact, I believe larger buses, just like the big semi’s, not only add to congestion they are a traffic safety hazard.
[/quote]
The large buses would be appropriate for dedicated lanes, used only by buses, but to have that sort of dedication be efficient (and acceptable to the public) they would have to get a lot of use. Nearly everywhere a bus can go, light rail could go. If we can't have light rail (for whatever reason) perhaps the next best alternative would be to develop express bus lanes that could be easily converted to light rail use in the future. Dedicated lanes, viaducts over busy intersections, shortcut bridges over congestion spots such as rail tracks and water courses or through restricted points where multiple traffic lanes are not practical would give the buses / future rail advantages over autos in getting from point to point. Single and double lane bridges etc. would be considerably less expensive than 6 - 8 lane wide construction...
#67
Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:16 AM
#68
Posted 01 October 2011 - 07:08 PM
How ridiculous is it to say "I hate streetcars" or "I hate buses"? In a city business district both take up equal space in an environment already crowded by private cars and service vehicles of all kinds. How is a streetcar that holds 60 people in any way smaller or more flexible than a comparable bus?
How ridiculous is it to say: "I hate buses! I wouldn't get into a bus for any reason", even if that bus was built by a company that also builds streetcars and trolley buses and looked the same inside and out. Fort Worth lost a world class streetcar system in 1936 simply because there were loud protests about them at the time. They were not modern or efficient, etc. All false for the most part, but done just exactly like anti-bus protesters are doing now.
Or is this whole controversy about something else? Could it be a perceived bias as to the suitability fo the type of people that supposedly ride buses vs. those that ride streetcars? Could we call this "class action traction"? The city has admitted long ago that they want to cherry-pick streetcar riders from selected citizens of their "urban villages". And, in more expensive equipment that will take the cost per fare out of sight.
There has been more spin on this subject in the past few years than everything but the fabled "Southwest Parkway".. I have attended a number of the past Streetcar meetings for the public trying to weight the pros and cons and I have to say that I have heard these supposedly neutral consultants say the most outrageous things. They apparently assume that we all are gullible idiots.
I will say again the same thing that I have said in this forum for years: I firmly believe that there is a good place for streetcars (not light rail) in Fort Worth. In conjunction with all other forms of public transportation. I think there are some innovative ways that both streetcars and bus operations could be improved.
Yes, I believe in streetcars for Fort Worth. But only if the public process of getting them in places that they are most suitable is done honestly and aboveboard with as little political BS as possible. Not likely right now, I'm afraid..
Pete Charlton
The Fort Worth Gazette blog
The Lost Antique Maps of Fort Worth on CDROM
Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
#69
Posted 02 October 2011 - 08:57 AM
Better Business Bureau: A place to find or post valid complaints for auto delerships and maintenance facilities. (New Features) If you have a valid gripe about auto dealerships, this is the place to voice it.
#70
Posted 02 October 2011 - 06:37 PM
Another option that seems to be totally ignored are trolley buses. Electric powered buses that take their power from overhead wires. They have been around as long as motor buses have been and are used in Europe and around the world with good success. Seattle and I think San Francisco use them as well as other US cities if I'm not mistaken. They have most of the street flexibility of the bus, don't require rebuilding to put rails in the street, eliminate the problem of electrolysis damage to underground piping that can happen with streetcars and are as clean as their power plant source is. Consultants seem to ignore them without giving any reasons why.
Trolleybuses.
Pete Charlton
The Fort Worth Gazette blog
The Lost Antique Maps of Fort Worth on CDROM
Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
#71
Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:12 PM
#72
Posted 03 October 2011 - 04:34 PM
The visual pollution of simple trolley wire on a tangent is way over imagined in my opinion. It is mainly the curves or switches where the hardware gets excessive. San Francisco has developed a minimalist hanger system and there are many practices developed to reduce the visual impact. This ain't your father's overhead contact system.
#73
Posted 03 October 2011 - 06:22 PM
http://www.railwaypr...ey_163_3_sm.JPG
http://www.railwaypr...verview_sm3.jpg
http://www.railwaypr...y_163_5_sm2.jpg
http://www.railwaypr...ircle_2_sm2.jpg
I, myself, rate them very acceptable.
Keep Fort Worth folksy.
#74
Posted 03 October 2011 - 06:49 PM
Also, the wheels under No. 163 is a design I worked on with the Chief Operating Office of MATA, adapting the wheels from Dallas' No. 636 for use on the Florida car. The original design is designated 78-LSS and I think the Florida version is 78-LSS2. I am very proud of that work. That car has some powerful motors.
#75
Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:07 PM
How would you rate these images of streetcar overhead lines in Tampa: acceptable or unacceptable?
http://www.railwaypr...ey_163_3_sm.JPG
http://www.railwaypr...verview_sm3.jpg
http://www.railwaypr...y_163_5_sm2.jpg
http://www.railwaypr...ircle_2_sm2.jpg
I, myself, rate them very acceptable.
Keep Fort Worth folksy.
Not too bad but to make a qualified call you'd need to see the intersections, junctions, etc... mid line and with nothing but open spaces they look "okay" but it's when you install them into existing older locations where things get cluttered and tight, they don't always look the same.
Like the SouthSide of downtown, plenty of space, doubt you'd even notice them as long as they stopped BEFORE they got into downtown, say no farther than 9th.
Better Business Bureau: A place to find or post valid complaints for auto delerships and maintenance facilities. (New Features) If you have a valid gripe about auto dealerships, this is the place to voice it.
#76
Posted 03 October 2011 - 07:08 PM
Reducing The Visual Impact of Overhead Contact Systems By John S. Kulpa, Arthur D. Schwartz.
#77
Posted 15 October 2011 - 06:34 PM
http://www.progressi...t-report--28286
#78
Posted 15 October 2011 - 10:36 PM
#79
Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:24 AM
#80
Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:58 PM
Stuff happening in other cities.
Good thing we saved ourselves from the dreaded modern streetcar.
Hi Andy,
Welcome back, neighbor. I won't debate the merits or disadvantages of a modern streetcar system in Fort Worth. It had its short day in the sun and was vetoed by our former mayor. (who, by the way, has business connections to the oil industry with its main customers being the American car driving public) Anyhow, as you know, while we cherish the 25+ years we've called the Fort Worth area home, (22+ on Samuels Ave) we're ready to sell and relocate with Cincinnati, OH being a strong prospect. That Midwestern city, by the way, once had a proposed streetcar system almost given up for dead as the Ohio governor had nixed state funding for the project but supporter-voters persevered and have managed to get funding restored with groundbreaking for the new street car system scheduled for early 2012. It will be a "shortline" initially but if successful will be expanded in the future. Doubtful we could do the same in FW as just too few here are very passionate about it. Better get used to "Molly the Trolley" because that's as close as we are likely to get to a "streetcar" anytime soon.
#81
Posted 21 November 2011 - 11:41 PM
#82
Posted 22 November 2011 - 12:32 PM
I don't know. Watch the downtown vision work coming up. Let's gage it there. We have new leadership in the mayor's office. If the US doesn't go bankrupt, there's still a chance. San Antonio just pushed through a system completely locally funded, IIRC and Cinci just beat back a ballot initiative to kill the modern streetcar. FWIW, Molly is a bus.
Yes, I know all about "Molly the Trolley"...it is frequently parked down in front of the extended stay Marriot at Samuels and Belknap. That was my point, instead of a real streetcar, we instead get a gasoline or diesel powered BUS (maybe even Nat. gas?) dolled up to look somewhat like an "old trolley car". I'd like to think there could someday be a real streetcar in FW but austerity and financial caution are today's reality. Back when the Tandy Center had their little electric streetcar "shortline" from the parking lot into the Center it was nearly always full. (being toll free surely helped) I feel fairly confident that mass rail transportation has a future in Fort Worth but not until the economy improves and funds become more available. I'm also optimistic about the new mayoral leadership, certainly more so than the previous administration.
#83
Posted 22 November 2011 - 01:38 PM
I never voted for Mayor Moncrief. But think we cannot find a more honorable man. He did not vote against street cars because he has friends in the oil business. (Oswald actually killed Kennedy too) The Mayor knew the economic timing was wrong for a streetcar. Unlike Moncrief, I think never is the best time. Don't clog our streets with junk. There would not have been 30 people that rode a streetcar to work. (To pay our taxes to pay for real solutions)
I think Mayor Price is as smart as Mayor Moncrief. I could not be more grateful. Street cars need to live only on my antique postcards.
#84
Posted 22 November 2011 - 03:45 PM
#85
Posted 22 November 2011 - 04:22 PM
I think Fort Worth has been and is blessed with our past and current Mayor. Mayor Moncrief was originally for old street cars. But after the economy tanked (Fort Worth and United States) he realized it was time to stop playing house. A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution.... I never voted for Mayor Moncrief. But think we cannot find a more honorable man...Street cars need to live only on my antique postcards.
I think there is a quick and easily implemented solution that you would favor: convert the two inside lanes of 35W from DTFW to I20 into reversible toll lanes. This would provide you and other auto dependent suburban commuters a choice. So far I have been able to avoid using the rapidly expanding toll way network which is being developed in the Metroplex; and will continue to do so. Personally, I have no objections to making all interstate highways toll roads, thus allowing you to have this choice wherever you drive. As a proponent of Central City commuters, the streetcar would have provided us with a choice that the opponents were unwilling to give to persons such as myself. In reality, the streetcar was a central city project which did not interfere with the highway network, although it was and continues to be mischaracterized as such. It is, as Dallas is demonstrating, a component of a network of highway, toll roads, light rail, bus and street car developed to serve a variety of users. Does this mean that Dallas is not a modern city, but a city of relics?
We in DFW pay for higher gasoline because of the enormous auto emissions that significantly contribute to poor air quality in the region. The public health in itself is argument enough to provide the region with alternative means of transportation.
As for our past administration and its leader being a beacon of honor, I do not share your accolades. The Fort Worth Weekly (December, 2010) published an excellent investigative report on the derailment of the streetcar initiative. A strong argument was made by the FWW that City Hall, Downtown Fort Worth, Inc., FWST and Sundance Square were expressing publicly their support for the streetcar initiative while in actuality they were working in a concerted effort to derail the initiative so as to advance their own interests.
Keep Fort Worth folksy
#86
Posted 22 November 2011 - 05:14 PM
I'll say that streetcars have their niche - even in Fort Worth.A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution. I think creates more pollution by clogging up our streets. I was proud of the Mayor for not going for the shiny toy. <...>
The Tandy Center Subway took between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles off downtown streets every day. These were not "toys" - they were workhorses that carried thousands of passengers and were packed with standees during rush hours - right up until the last day of operation.
Tandy's PCC cars didn't clog the streets because they didn't run in the streets. Yes, they were free - they didn't use a penny of taxpayer money either.
#87
Posted 22 November 2011 - 07:18 PM
I'll say that streetcars have their niche - even in Fort Worth.
A streetcar in Fort Worth is not real transportation. It saves no fuel or pollution. I think creates more pollution by clogging up our streets. I was proud of the Mayor for not going for the shiny toy. <...>
The Tandy Center Subway took between 2,000 and 3,000 vehicles off downtown streets every day. These were not "toys" - they were workhorses that carried thousands of passengers and were packed with standees during rush hours - right up until the last day of operation.
Tandy's PCC cars didn't clog the streets because they didn't run in the streets. Yes, they were free - they didn't use a penny of taxpayer money either.
Agreed!
#88
Posted 05 December 2011 - 11:28 PM
I'll clip someone's n*ts if that happens...
p.s., there's a reason why they're called MODERN streetcars, so I'm not gonna say they need to be stuck in the past. I feel we have to get something going.... someday.
#89
Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:07 AM
Economic Development Disappointing Thus Far
The AAS also looked at development around DART stations in the Dallas area and appears to have come to the same conclusion with a few exceptions:
Slow in Dallas Too
Interesting references to Portland's (I know, urban Oz) rail system and the heavy government subsidies it took to get economic development rolling.
I'm going now to wash my car.
#90
Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:06 AM
The amount of economic development around train stations is proportional to the number of riders of the trains, which is proportional to the number of trains visiting that station. Most, note I didn't say all, of the economic development at DART train stations have occurred in the central districts before lines start branching off. For example, Mockingbird has tons of economic development where the Red and Blue lines merge, but not Lovers Lane or NW Highway stations. Mockingbird has twice the trains and double the frequency of trains than Lovers Lane or NW Highway. We should see similar economic development results on the tracks for the Green and Orange lines share, up to Bachman Lake.Very interesting article in today's Austin American-Statesman about the disappointing lack of economic development around Austin's Metro Rail stops over the last couple of years. I know it won't be music to the urbanism-isticals, but perhaps in-town rail is not the magic economic genie as has been touted.
Economic Development Disappointing Thus Far
The AAS also looked at development around DART stations in the Dallas area and appears to have come to the same conclusion with a few exceptions:
Austin's Red Line is a commuter rail line more similar to DCTA and TRE than DART, lower frequency means less riders, therefore less development near its stations.
#91
Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:45 PM
http://www.star-tele...worth-back.html
The 105,800-square-foot facility will have 740 premium horse stalls, exercise arenas, RV parking and 570 linear feet of tunnels. In June 2010, the city borrowed $34.7 million to finance the multipurpose center and other improvements. The city is using its portion of the rental car tax at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to service the debt, which is scheduled to be paid off in March 2031, but did not go to voters for approval.
Same timeframe and roughly the same amount of money as the streetcar project would have needed. I remember speculation at the time that this was the reason the streetcar was killed.
It's interesting to compare the two projects, if this is the reason the streetcar study was ended. I wonder if somebody could run the numbers on which would have brought more "bang for the buck" to Ft Worth... for one thing, the streetcar would have netted us $25 million right off the top from the feds. What will this shiny new horse barn bring us?
#92
Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:15 PM
I am not a horse guy and very much against any animal "Games", but the Star-Telegram story gives the reason for its need... keeps Fort Worth the horse show place. Horses are huge money. If you want big money in your town attract horse people. (Also see Alice Walton) I would say it is money well spent.
#93
Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:54 PM
#94
Posted 03 June 2012 - 11:39 PM
...the city borrowed $34.7 million to finance the multipurpose center and other improvements. The city is using its portion of the rental car tax at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to service the debt, which is scheduled to be paid off in March 2031, but did not go to voters for approval....I remember speculation at the time that this was the reason the streetcar was killed. It's interesting to compare the two projects, if this is the reason the streetcar study was ended?....
Nothing in recent memory has disappointed me more than the derailment of the Streetcar Starter Project (SSP); that being said, I think that the WRMC Equestrian Center (EC) and the SSP are not the same.
Generally speaking, an arena is not likely to be considered a public good infrastructure project because of its narrow, specific use. The extensive use of federal funds to build projects such as The Ballpark in Arlington or Cowboys Stadium would not be politically palatable. The city's final resolve was to use a specialty auto rental tax in order to have its specialty EC. The WRMC proposed arena to replace the current structure will be faced with the same political hurdle. For instance, the most recent attempt to clear this hurdle was to create a specialty hotel tax specific to Fort Worth only and which in the end was successfully tabled. Give credit to Mr. Jerry Jones whatever his faults; he is one billionaire that at least put in the lion share of the money for his stadium. Would be nice, if our local billionaire was to do the same!
On the other hand, infrastructure projects such as water, roads, schools and transportation are deemed to be in the public good overall; and federal funding is generally expected and sought after. In fact, federal funding was already allocated for the SSP; Fort Worth simply decided in a split vote to refuse the start up money. With the need for jobs, I'm pretty sure that the money to complete vital public good infrastructure projects will be available in the end given the sorry state of the country's aging infrastructure.
The most interesting take away from the new story was how the decision was made to use the specialty tax without a public vote. In the decision to scuttle the SSP, public opinion for decades was favorable to the SSP; and given a public vote, the proponents of the SSP would prevail under the leadership of Mayor Price.
Keep Fort Worth folksy
#95
Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:03 AM
#96
Posted 04 June 2012 - 09:53 AM
I am considering changing the name of this thread to something other than what is there now. Perhaps something like "2011 Modern Streetcar Effort Ended" and start a new thread, "2012 Modern Streetcar Proposal". I'm sure Brian will be thrilled.
Andy, surely all the work that was done previously does not need to be rehashed. Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.
Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.
#97
Posted 04 June 2012 - 10:39 AM
I am considering changing the name of this thread to something other than what is there now. Perhaps something like "2011 Modern Streetcar Effort Ended" and start a new thread, "2012 Modern Streetcar Proposal". I'm sure Brian will be thrilled.
Andy, surely all the work that was done previously does not need to be rehashed. Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.
Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.
*sigh*..... I agree.
This is the ONE thing I believe Fort Worth should work with Dallas on. Public transportation.
#98
Posted 04 June 2012 - 11:01 AM
... Fort Worth has a new mayor who has new, not just rehashed good-old-boy-downtown-club ideas, and a couple of new council members, but they will need more progressive minds and a better fiscal base to work from to get the streetcar project back "on track". This is now obviously the correct way to go with inner-city transportation, as evidenced with the full-throttle manner in which Dallas is moving ahead with their project.....Again, ditch "The T" and join DART for improved transportation options in North Texas.
In the past I have been disinclined to the idea of Fort Worth (The T) becoming a member of Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) believing that Fort Worth/Tarrant must retain its own identity; but if what is being reported in today's FWST proves yet again to add too an already long string of blunders under the current administration leading The T, then I think it is time for our mayor to consider firing the current administration at The T. The mayor should then fill the board with an entirely new set of administrators who can deliver some accomplishments.
I would not be averse to hiring some DART administrators for their proven expertise and for better regional coordination.
The quest for commuter rail on Fort Worth's north side | Your Commute | News from Fort W...
Keep Fort Worth folksy
#99
Posted 05 June 2012 - 11:23 AM
It's taking FWTA decades longer to raise the capital to afford constructing commuter rail lines. Both DART and FWTA started in the early 1980s. In that period, both FWTA and DART have subsidized TRE commuter rail and large bus systems, only DART has been subsidizing construction and operation of a soon to be over 90 mile light rail system.
The TEXrail line has gone through a name change from SW2NE, which hash''t helped to date in gaining a full funding agreement from the FTA or FRA. By the time it does, DART may have found a way to fund and match it with the Cotton Belt line, still leaving DART with it's huge light rail system advantage.
One could argue DART has a larger tax base, but I would argue FWTA could be operating a proportionally smaller light rail system right now if it had been levying a full penny sales tax all this time. As is, it's handicapped by that half cent sales tax into a mostly bus system with very little rail.
#100
Posted 05 June 2012 - 12:39 PM
All they could do would be to give up the Crime Control tax of .5% to make their MTA tax 1%.
But Dallas does have that huge advantage of extra transit money. More people, more sales taxes and double the MTA tax rate. (It is not the function of a genius DART board as it turns out)
So then our choice in Fort Worth might be, a crime ridden city with mass transit or a safer city without. Dallas took the crime + light rail.
I really wish Fort Worth had light rail options. But if I were King, I don't think I would trade the crime tax for a transit tax. Safe beats fast, in my book. I do wish we could increase our sales tax rate, as to me it would be worth it for light rail.
0 user(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users