158 replies to this topic

[Keller Pirate]

Here's a question for you. Since DFW was built nearly 40 years ago, what other new commerical airports have been built in the entire United States?

The big one, off the top of my head, is Denver.

[Volare]

 

Here's a question for you. Since DFW was built nearly 40 years ago, what other new commerical airports have been built in the entire United States?

The big one, off the top of my head, is Denver.

 

In fact, that's the ONLY one.

 

In 40 years.

 

And it was built to replace and shut down an existing obsolete airport (Stapleton).

 

So we can go on and on about building a new commerical airport for Fort Worth, and while it's great in theory, it's tough to see how a City that can't even build a $75 million streetcar system or it's first light rail line connecting the 4th largest airport in the world to it's downtown transit center is going to find either the vision or the spare cash to create a surplus commerical airport so the folks in Fort Worth don't have to drive 20 miles to DFW.

 

I admire the idea, I really do, I've loved planes my whole life. I used to go to the Fort Worth airshow at Meacham and then Carswell with my Dad. I learned to fly at Meacham. The more planes and the more airports for the region, the better, IMHO. I just don't see how we get it done in Fort Worth given what already exists.

[Volare]

Actually, to be fair, Virgin America has posted two consecutive quarterly profits, I believe.

 

While being supported by a foreign ownership group that pours untold amounts of cash into the operation, quite in violation of US Law BTW, while the DOT looks the other way because it's one of their blessed "low cost carriers."

[Fort Worthology]

Ok.

 

(I really don't care either way - I'm about to fly with them to SFO, which is as far as any of my dealings with them go.)

[Volare]

Ok.

 

(I really don't care either way - I'm about to fly with them to SFO, which is as far as any of my dealings with them go.)

 

That's cool. I hear they are enjoyable to fly on. I don't begrudge VA employees, my beef is with a DOT who picks and chooses which laws they will enforce to the continuing detriment of the major US carriers.

 

Sorry 'bout the thread drift...

[youngalum]

What is ironic is that the new DFW CEO was the former CEO of Virgin America.  Yet, he is letting them go to Love when he was the one who got them to DFW in the first place.

 

But, lets be honest, I doubt VA will get the gates at Love.  I would bet on SW or Delta getting them since the city of Dallas makes the call.

[mmiller2002]

I do not see it to be practical to have commercial traffic at Carswell.  There's only 1 runway and the Lockheed Martin F-35 is ramping up production. The JRB would have priority, then Lockheed's DoD needs.  There's really no need for an airport there.  Look to Meacham...

[renamerusk]

 

 

So we can go on and on about building a new commerical airport for Fort Worth....a City that can't even build a $75 million streetcar system.... to find either the vision or the spare cash to create a surplus commerical airport so the folks in Fort Worth don't have to drive 20 miles to DFW....... I just don't see how we get it done in Fort Worth given what already exists.

 

 

A few things to cover here.....Here goes!

Since DFW was built, I can cite 1-1/2 airports in Texas:  Austin and Love Field (resurrected).  By the way, both of these airports are former military bases.  

Now to your remark regarding the issue of the streetcar.  For and during more then a decade, Fort Worth was recognized by DOT for its planning of, public input for, environmental review of, and public support for the street car starter system.  It is precisely why Fort Worth was one of very few cities nation wide that was awarded the grant to build the starter system.  It was a council,  who unexpectedly and with inexplicable reasoning,  voted down in a split decision and showed a total  disregard for years of excellent preparation and public support for the street car system.

As for vision, I would agree with you to a point that out city leaders have tunnel vision towards seemingly nothing else: two “so call”  public good projects that, when looked at realistically , are but one in the same - speculative real estate development projects named  Trinity River Vision and TexRail.   My guess is that a “speculative’ regional airport would be more a sure thing and much less to build than either of the aforementioned projects.

DFW+Fort Worth Regional?

To my knowledge, and certainly none on my part, have I read any bashing of DFW from those of us in the western part of the region.  Typically, that comes from the eastern part of the region where a regional airport already exists.  One thing that is puzzling is the attitude first that DFW is the “best”  and then that  DFW is “a bad planner” for implementing toll charges.  I shall leave the split attitude for those who have it as to sort it out for themselves.  

Curiosity leads me to ask the question: What is a surplus commercial airport?” Are there surplus convention centers?...train stations?....transit systems?

What seems to be the correct answer is for Fort Worth to pursue what is in its best interest as has Dallas done.  Love Field’s proximity to Downtown Dallas v Downtown Fort Worth without a similar situation disadvantages Downtown Fort Worth.  Virgin Airlines said as much; and Southwest Airlines has demonstrated that over a very long time.  I believe it is reasonable not to remain at a disadvantage forever especially when attempting to recruit businesses to our half of the region.  I also believe that it has become an economic imperative that Downtown Fort Worth and the western half of this region address this disadvantage as quickly as possible is it ever hopes to remain reasonably competitive with the eastern half.

As for the solution, it can be done; and in fact, the reality is easily achievable as the information  below demonstrates:
 
Fort Worth Carswell Regional Airport -

For spare cash, I direct you to my earlier post #57 in this same thread where DOD funds already exist for such purposes.

For conceptual idea of a Carswell Airport, I direct you to a different thread, “Ideas and Suggestions for Projects/FW Carswells Regional Airport/post#13)“
 

 

I do not see it to be practical to have commercial traffic at Carswell.  There's only 1 runway and the Lockheed Martin F-35 is ramping up production. The JRB would have priority, then Lockheed's DoD needs.  There's really no need for an airport there.  Look to Meacham...

 

How many take-offs per hour do you imagine occur at Carswell?  Isn't that what air control and ramp control is for?  Is it a fact that JRB or Lockheed Martin would have priority? Amtrak has priority over shared commercial rail systems.

 

Whewww!

[RenaissanceMan]

Regarding a Fort Worth regional airport, if there is a relatively painless way of establishing one in Fort Worth, I'm all for it. However, on the balance of things, given the likely costs and political capital necessary to do that, I'd perhaps just as soon see Fort Worth out its efforts into trying to become a hub for a High a Speed Rail network, and be the location of the interchange between a line running up from Houston and/or down from Little Rock and one running along I-35 from OKC to San Antonio. Both may be just as likely (which isn't a huge vote of confidence for either).

[renamerusk]

Regarding a Fort Worth regional airport, if there is a relatively painless way of establishing one in Fort Worth, I'm all for it. However, on the balance of things, given the likely costs and political capital necessary to do that, I'd perhaps just as soon see Fort Worth out its efforts into trying to become a hub for a High a Speed Rail network, and be the location of the interchange between a line running up from Houston and/or down from Little Rock and one running along I-35 from OKC to San Antonio. Both may be just as likely (which isn't a huge vote of confidence for either).

 

So, Little Rock to Fort Worth with no stop in Dallas; Houston to Fort Worth with no stop in Dallas? A regional HSR; that would be awesome. Just think of all the passengers from east of Dallas or Houston having to drive an extra 40 mile just to get to Dallas.   Fort Worth gets to have the only High Speed Rail Hub for the region and Dallas gets to keep the only regional airport for the region. "Sweet!"

 

Actually, airplanes and trains operate in different environments.  With a regional airport, Fort Worth would not be limited to just Little Rock, Houston, San Antonio or OKC.  We could have connections to KC, Las Vegas, Southern Cal, Denver, Omaha and eventually farther out.

 

Look, we are spending another $50m just on the design of a $800m&rising commuter rail that has an absolutely limited benefit to but a fraction of the overall western region, whereas, a regional airport would be a benefit to not only Fort Worth, but Parker, Wise, Hood and Johnson Counties.

 

What have been the costs and political capital associated with the region's only regional airport.  And what are the economic costs to Fort Worth that the city will bare if it remains permanently disadvantage to the eastern half of the region? These are the questions that have to be answered.

 

As for the funding, see my post#57 with a DOD link attached.

 

Fort Worth over everyone.

[mmiller2002]

 

How many take-offs per hour do you imagine occur at Carswell?  Isn't that what air control and ramp control is for?  Is it a fact that JRB or Lockheed Martin would have priority? Amtrak has priority over shared commercial rail systems.

 

Whewww!

 

 

I guess my real points are that I don't see a real need considering the cost, and why even bother with the JRB when Meaham is already a commercial airport.

[Volare]

Regarding Love Field and the new Austin airport: Love Field was around well prior to DFW, as was Austin Bergstrom as a military base. When Bergstrom became the new AUS airport the old airport Mueller, was CLOSED. This is what I was referring to when I said surplus commerical airports. See also Denver Stapleton. In fact in the near 40 years since DFW was opened there has been only a single new commerical airport built in the US, and that is DEN. They are incredibly capital intensive and difficult to justify without an obsolete airport to being shutdown to offset the cost.

 

But I must apologize to renamerusk for steering the conversation into realms of NEW Fort Worth airports, which was not his doing but rather a different poster. In reviewing the posts above, it appears renamerusk continues to advocate for the repurposing of the JRB and not for the creation of an entirely new airport. For the reasons I've stated above IMHO the creation of an entirely new Fort Worth commercial airport is exactly 0%. I would rate the prospects of repurposing an existing airport like either FTW or the JRB for commercial air service as slightly better.

 

I agree that Fort Worth is disadvantaged by the status quo- that is an unfortunate side effect to Dallas not living up to their obligations regarding Love Field when DFW was created. Don't forget that there have been airlines that have attempted service from FTW- athough not in any recent decades. I forget the name of the outfit but they were trying service with Do228s. When ~70% of the market is east of 360, including a vast majority of the high yield business travelers, this is not a surprising state we find outselves is.

[RenaissanceMan]

 

Regarding a Fort Worth regional airport, if there is a relatively painless way of establishing one in Fort Worth, I'm all for it. However, on the balance of things, given the likely costs and political capital necessary to do that, I'd perhaps just as soon see Fort Worth out its efforts into trying to become a hub for a High a Speed Rail network, and be the location of the interchange between a line running up from Houston and/or down from Little Rock and one running along I-35 from OKC to San Antonio. Both may be just as likely (which isn't a huge vote of confidence for either).

 

So, Little Rock to Fort Worth with no stop in Dallas; Houston to Fort Worth with no stop in Dallas? A regional HSR; that would be awesome. Just think of all the passengers from east of Dallas or Houston having to drive an extra 40 mile just to get to Dallas.   Fort Worth gets to have the only High Speed Rail Hub for the region and Dallas gets to keep the only regional airport for the region. "Sweet!"

 

 

I was referring to where the two proposed/dreamed up HSR lines would link (not where they would stop). There is an advantage in being the location where one line intersects the other and Fort Worth is in good position to do exactly that. You can have a stop in your city, but to be the "hub" you really need to be at the point where one line meets the other. So, like I said, if I am equipped with wishes and speculation and can only devote them to either a high-cost/high-controversy airport or a high-cost/high-controversy HSR Hub (intersection, whatever)... I'll choose the latter. For whatever it's worth.

[JBB]

A lot of the powers that be in FW managed to get a major flood control feature of the TRV project moved across town because they didn't like the idea of stagnant flood waters sitting down the hill from their houses. A few years later, many of the same people shut down the streetcar project because of perceived threats to downtown business interests. They tried really hard to get the sunken plaza at TCC removed because they wanted to build their own public plaza a few blocks away. How do you think people in Westover and Rivercrest will react to a full-service commercial airport being proposed in their backyard? Necessity and funding are far from the biggest obstacles a commercial airport at the JRB would face.

[renamerusk]

 

But, lets be honest, I doubt VA will get the gates at Love.  I would bet on SW or Delta getting them since the city of Dallas makes the call.

 

I think that if Dallas does so, it would be facing a Restraint of Trade Lawsuit.  Perhaps Johnfwd is willing to weigh in on the issue.

 

I was referring to............

 

I will agree with you most of the way, except that I believe that a regional airport is both less costly and less controversial (property rights/acquisition) than HSR will be.

 

....How do you think people in Westover and Rivercrest will react to a full-service commercial airport being proposed in their backyard? Necessity and funding are far from the biggest obstacles a commercial airport at the JRB would face.

 

I think for a majority of the residents in that area they will be happy for the development of new businesses, jobs and the convenience of flying so near to their homes.  People in West Fort Worth coped with "around the clock thunderous" B-52's and coexist today with "ear splitting" F-16's and F-35's. The uptown and park cities areas of Dallas have never coped with the likes of that. For the most part, Love Field area residents have been relatively quiet about noise issues.

 

Also it is the Westover Hills and Rivercrest residents that will see their investments in Downtown Fort Worth and the western half of the region given a better chance to compete for new business relocating to North Texas.

 

And finally, the new generation of commercial jets are quieter and operation times can be controlled when deemed necessary.

 

Being from Bedford, and the Mid-Cities Area, you have been given a gift with Fort Worth's airport in your own backyard.  It is and continues to be an economic boom for your area.  It was thought to be the permanent solution, but forces and a change in airline strategy changed this forever; and could threaten to make DFW a surplus airport in the future that retains mostly the high-end international traffic and corporate traffic business.

 

Now, Fort Worth should work more to fulfill its obligation to its core neighborhoods and to its Downtown than to the Mid-Cities which has become more associated with Greater Dallas than with Fort Worth. 

 

To say that I have become a bit passionate about this does not begin to describe my feelings.

[Dylan]

We may be jealous of Dallas' commercial airport, but I'm sure there are plenty of people over there that are jealous of our Alliance.


A little off topic, but I modified a map of DFW airport the other day to design a custom shirt with it. I will post pics when I get it.

[renamerusk]

We may be jealous of Dallas' commercial airport, but I'm sure there are plenty of people over there that are jealous of our Alliance.

 

 I admit that it is possible for me personally to be accused of being jealous, but it is really about more than jealousy.  It is about the 17th largest city in the U.S. being without an airport and getting greater national recognition.  The kind of recognition that it can get high tech and high skill employers to locate in Downtown Fort Worth or if it ever comes to pass, Panther Island.  I know that there is DFW; but hasn't it been better for Irving, Grapevine, Southlake and Euless than for Fort Worth? 

[RenaissanceMan]

 
Now, Fort Worth should work more to fulfill its obligation to its core neighborhoods and to its Downtown than to the Mid-Cities which has become more associated with Greater Dallas than with Fort Worth. 

Thought you were talking about the Star-Telegram here for a second.

[FWFD1247]

...17th largest city in the U.S. ...

We're actually the 16th largest for the record...

[Electricron]

 

We may be jealous of Dallas' commercial airport, but I'm sure there are plenty of people over there that are jealous of our Alliance.

 

 I admit that it is possible for me personally to be accused of being jealous, but it is really about more than jealousy.  It is about the 17th largest city in the U.S. being without an airport and getting greater national recognition.  The kind of recognition that it can get high tech and high skill employers to locate in Downtown Fort Worth or if it ever comes to pass, Panther Island.  I know that there is DFW; but hasn't it been better for Irving, Grapevine, Southlake and Euless than for Fort Worth? 

 

No more or less than it's been for Dallas. Both Dallas and Fort Worth collect usage fees, Grapevine only collects it's share of  sales taxes, which by the way gives FWTA 3/8 of a percentage or so if it's max allowed by the state of 2%.  

[RD Milhollin]

Lots of new work going on at Fort Worth Meacham International Airport:

 

http://fwbusinesspre...-expansion.aspx

 

One of the projects mentioned is a police department support hanger for their helicopters, and plans include a plane or planes later on for "speed enforcement and other uses". Probably a good indication that the Crime Control District funds are causing frivolous, non-productive spending. 

 

While reading about Meacham, here is a great link to a page about the early history of that airport:

 

http://www.cowtown.net/proweb/VMAP/

[renamerusk]

I remember a conversation I had a few years back with a broker in Fort Worth that really stuck with me. ....in speaking about his time working at that Dallas brokerage, he pointed to what is a serious competitive disadvantage for Fort Worth in attracting major tenants (including those moving from other major metros in Texas and those coming in from out of state).....So basically, according to this broker, it would all go like this: they would get that call from a client interested in looking at "the Dallas area," it would get down to him to pick out a few suitable locations based on what the client was looking for and then he would take his list on up to his boss who would then present it to the client and they would make visits to those locations.....This broker then went on to explain that there were many times when he would look at what the client wanted and would find a perfect office or location in Fort Worth that matched practically everything the client was looking for..... in almost every instance [Boss] would reply with "We're not driving all the way out to Fort Worth! Pick out a site in downtown Dallas, Las Colinas and Plano." And that would be the end of the discussion. This was particularly true for cases involving clients who were flying in for the day to take a look at a few sites, have lunch and then fly back out the same day. Fort Worth, no matter how good of an option, was pretty much always off the table at their firm....

 

There are really only three ways that Fort Worth is likely to be able to overcome this competitive disadvantage:

 

1) Build up its in-state and national profile in a way that stands distinctly separate and apart from Dallas, such that tenants either begin asking to look at space specifically in Fort Worth or are surprised when Fort Worth is left off of the list

2) Continue to build up enough assets and enough of a competitive advantage within certain key industries or, more broadly, in areas that are attractive/powerful enough that they cannot be ignored by either the brokers or their clients (this is basically what has happened with Alliance, as there is no other place in North Texas quite like Alliance).

3) Grow from from within

 

"..clients who were flying in for the day to take a look at a few sites, have lunch and then fly back out the same day".

 

And of course, a fourth and very important way to overcome this competitive disadvantage is to have an airport to fly into Fort Worth Proper; and even if the boss plans on driving east to Dallas, at least he would get a first hand glimpse of Fort Worth's downtown and west side.

[RenaissanceMan]

I remember a conversation I had a few years back with a broker in Fort Worth that really stuck with me. ....in speaking about his time working at that Dallas brokerage, he pointed to what is a serious competitive disadvantage for Fort Worth in attracting major tenants (including those moving from other major metros in Texas and those coming in from out of state).....So basically, according to this broker, it would all go like this: they would get that call from a client interested in looking at "the Dallas area," it would get down to him to pick out a few suitable locations based on what the client was looking for and then he would take his list on up to his boss who would then present it to the client and they would make visits to those locations.....This broker then went on to explain that there were many times when he would look at what the client wanted and would find a perfect office or location in Fort Worth that matched practically everything the client was looking for..... in almost every instance [Boss] would reply with "We're not driving all the way out to Fort Worth! Pick out a site in downtown Dallas, Las Colinas and Plano." And that would be the end of the discussion. This was particularly true for cases involving clients who were flying in for the day to take a look at a few sites, have lunch and then fly back out the same day. Fort Worth, no matter how good of an option, was pretty much always off the table at their firm....
 
There are really only three ways that Fort Worth is likely to be able to overcome this competitive disadvantage:
 
1) Build up its in-state and national profile in a way that stands distinctly separate and apart from Dallas, such that tenants either begin asking to look at space specifically in Fort Worth or are surprised when Fort Worth is left off of the list
2) Continue to build up enough assets and enough of a competitive advantage within certain key industries or, more broadly, in areas that are attractive/powerful enough that they cannot be ignored by either the brokers or their clients (this is basically what has happened with Alliance, as there is no other place in North Texas quite like Alliance).
3) Grow from from within

 
"..clients who were flying in for the day to take a look at a few sites, have lunch and then fly back out the same day".
 
And of course, a fourth and very important way to overcome this competitive disadvantage is to have an airport to fly into Fort Worth Proper; and even if the boss plans on driving east to Dallas, at least he would get a first hand glimpse of Fort Worth's downtown and west side.

In this case, I think that the decision over the destination trumps the means of getting there. If they've been told by their broker, hey... fly on in to Love or DFW and we'll take you by Irving, Plano and then have lunch in downtown Dallas before checking out space there before getting you back to the airport (Love or DFW). I just don't see how having commercial service into Fort Worth changes the equation.

[renamerusk]

In this case, I think that the decision over the destination trumps the means of getting there..... If they've been told by their broker, hey... fly on in to Love or DFW ....before getting you back to the airport (Love or DFW). I just don't see how having commercial service into Fort Worth changes the equation.

 
I don't see how having commercial service into Fort Worth could be in anyway detrimental; only that it is reduces the advantage somewhat that Dallas maintains over Fort Worth by having Love Field. It will also showcase Fort Worth more effectively.
 
Many time when a perspective tenant is searching for property, broker steers the perspective tenant to a particular property or area. What can often happen is that the perspective tenant comes across something interesting during the search that really meets their needs just as well as or better than the targeted property.
 
When the equation changes by adding Love+DFW+FWA to your travel options, the search will be expanded changing both the perception of the area and increasing the array of choices.
 
Among the potential benefits to Fort Worth having an airport,  the following intended consequences may occur to a broker:
 
1) The nature of airports, being what it is,  may lead a broker to make a reasonable assumption that these three airports are separated by some distance; which in itself begins to weaken the perception that Fort Worth is a sub market of Dallas (ie Irving, Plano)
 
2) Instead of the prevailing view, the broker realizes that Fort Worth and Dallas are two distinctive markets; and may be prompted to do a more comprehensive analysis of the region. 
 
3)Travel quotes include three airport options instead of two for the broker; affecting prices and increasing flight availability for businesses and residents in Fort Worth; and makes doing business travel into and out of Fort Worth easier.

[Dylan]

Not that I want D/FW to lose commercial flights, but if I had to choose an airport to turn commercial, it would be Meacham. Yes, pilots of small aircraft would lose an airport to fly out of, but Meacham is closest to the center of Fort Worth. Alliance is just about as far away as D/FW, so what advantage would it have over the situation that currently exists? And I would hate for us to lose our military airport and the jobs/economy that accompanies it. Would it be possible for NAS JRB to be both a military and commercial airport at the same time?

[renamerusk]

....And I would hate for us to lose our military airport and the jobs/economy that accompanies it. Would it be possible for NAS JRB to be both a military and commercial airport at the same time?

 

Oh yeah, the best of both worlds

 

http://www.faa.gov/a...irport_program/

[renamerusk]

This is so damn encouraging.  The Fort strikes!

 

http://fwbusinesspre...am-Airport.aspx

[David Love]

This is so damn encouraging.  The Fort strikes!

 

http://fwbusinesspre...am-Airport.aspx

...as I've said before, we will see more of this activity at Meacham.

 

Now that the economy is ramping up, not that Fort Worth really noticed the downturn, Meacham will be a Mecca for travelers sick of the hassle and headaches frequent travelers encounter in the not so friendly skies of the major carriers.

[renamerusk]

.....As far of the AA thing, things change and that is a fact.  At least my rumor was based on actual discussions and not crazy ideas that Carswell will ever be a commercial traffic airport supporting airline traffic.

 

 

 

 

A second regional airport is as inevitable as is the inevitable growth  west and south of Fort Worth.  It may be Meacham or it may be Carswell, but it is at least a plausible prediction if population trends continue.

 

 

I don't see that a second "regional" airport is inevitable for the area if you count DFW as the first (i.e. major airport for the while North Texas region, long haul, international, etc.) If you mean a second regional airport like DAL (other regional US destinations) I would bet on Collin County to have the second one. Sorry, just saying'...

 

 

Yes, I mean a regional and not an international airport.  DFW is by agreement/law the only airport in North Texas to inbound/outbound international flights. Regional = Fort Worth to Houston/OKC/SA

 

And why sorry?  It is perfectly OK to maintain that a regional airport for Collin County is more deserving and make more business sense than an airport in the Southwestern region of Greater Fort Worth; and to still believe so even though McKinney Municipal Airport is 35.5 miles from Love Field while Benbrook is 43.7 miles from Love Field; or that both McKinney and Benbrook are each 35 and 34 miles respectively from DFW.  So why not have a regional airport in McKinney while denying the feasibility of a regional airport in Benbrook? I simply hold a different viewpoint.

 

CTP will changed the landscape of Southwest Tarrant and Northern Johnson Counties.  With that change and Eastern Parker County, it is not as far fetch as it may seem today that a regional airport will materialized in the future to serve these regions.

[renamerusk]

Pentagon making it known that it has over capacity and that it wants to close more military bases. 

 

Okay, so it time again for my diatribe and for the City to at least consider the benefits of a regional airport and the economic benefits to be gained for Western Tarrant County, Parker, Johnson and Hood Counties.

 

http://www.militaryt...mpact/83082930/

[renamerusk]

I will never understand the "we need an airport" argument.  We literally have one of the best airports in the entire world right here.  I live on the West side of Fort Worth and it takes me 30 minutes door to door.  Every new international destination to/from DFW brings dollars directly to Fort Worth, and our city leadership has done a great job of being presented as equal to Dallas when they're out marketing our region internationally.  This is WAY more economically beneficial to Fort Worth than a new (tiny) airport could ever be.  Realistically, you're talking about maybe a couple of budget carriers coming into Meacham and flying short haul routes.  This might be slightly more convenient for some people, but it won't "put Fort Worth on the map" in any meaningful way.  Business travelers from Fort Worth will drive the extra 10 minutes to DFW to fly the myriad routes and earn AA miles, just as they do today.

 

 Redirecting your remarks to a more suited thread, here are once again my mantra for a regional airport:

 

(1) Yes, Fort Worth and Dallas have one of the best airports in the entire world. However, that did not sway Dallas from reopening a regional airport; and even though it was a private airlines that led the way, Dallas' businesses did very little in stopping this from happening.  Dallas, arguably, strengthened its position as a destination both business and leisure by having an airport closer in to its downtown than Fort Worth.  Your argument might be plausible if Dallas had held the same attitude as you do.

 

(2) Metropolitan areas, Houston, Chicago, Southern Florida, Northern California and Los Angeles have multiple airports that are spread out spatially as to what could and be done for the western half of North Texas.  They too have international airports; so again your argument is weakened.

 

(3) Travel time between Downtown and Western Tarrant County is increasing and will do so as population and traffic congestion increases.  Eventually, the travel time will become a heavier burden.  Relying on AA to put the interest of the Fort Worth traveler ahead of its bottom line sounds a bit optimistic. Airfares at DFW are consistently higher and earning and using air-miles is solely at the whim of the carriers.

 

(4) Love Field is no longer just a regional airport, but is adding international destinations.  I be flying to Mexico in February and using Love Field as departure and arrival. 

 

(5) Regional airports put places on the "map".  Abilene, Jackson Hole are on the map because of small regional airports. Businesses, hotels, dining and ground support are all generated by these cities having a small regional airport.

 

(6) If marketing Fort Worth and Dallas jointly is working, why is Dallas getting more than its share of this business.  It is because the short hand phrase for DFW is "Dallas"; and people and businesses tend to bite on the short hand phrase causing Fort Worth to have to work harder to get its proper share of the marketing effort.

 

(7) It has not been my call for Meacham Airport to become the regional airport for Fort Worth.  I have what has been labelled the idiotic idea of concurrently using NAS-JRB with a regional airport for Fort Worth, Parker County and Johnson County.  Very recent politics being what they are today, the production of the  F-16 is being phased out here and shipped to India; and now there may be a second look at the costs associated with the F-35.  With Lockheed facing the potential of ending production at its Fort Worth plant, a feasible and economic replacement for the lost of activity there is a regional airport with the thousands of supportive jobs that would accompany such an airport.  And you bet,  I would love to fly JetBlue or any other regional airlines to destinations like Las Vegas, Omaha, El Paso, Albuquerque, etc. than to expend the one hour for sure battling traffic to and from Dallas to take a budget carrier to these destinations.

[hannerhan]

(1) to this I would simply respond that Dallas is bigger than FW and can better support another airport

 

(2) not many metro areas have 3 airports

 

(3) agree

 

(4) Love Field is and always will be a U.S. airport.  You might consider that international travel, but I do not.

 

(5) I just don't agree with this logic.  I think Fort Worth is already "on the map" and don't see an airport really changing that.  Did Burbank's airport put that city on the map?

 

(6) because Dallas is and always will be the big brother

 

(7) I do think the base is the only logical location for a new commercial airport.  And at some point, it will probably happen.  I just think we're 25 years out, and I'd love to see us focus on things like mass transit before we even talk about a real airport in FW.

[JBB]

I've always said this and I still think it: there will have to be a huge change in the high end neighborhoods on the west side in the next 25 years if they don't stand in the way of a full-service commercial airport in their backyard. I wouldn't say never, but we are a long way from there.

[renamerusk]

....Even though I think we focus more on tourism, other forms of business would work as well. I'd like to try and go after transportation and logistics companies. 

 

 

For some reason, DFW Airport seems to be under-appreciated on here. I agree with everything except for the last line....

 

But we are already a hub for transportation and logistics companies, ergo AA, BNSF, FedEX, Alliance Airport, Meacham Airport Private Jet Services Conglomerate, etc.   This somewhat explains the warehouse proliferation now taking place.  Focusing on tourism is a relatively small investment that has the potential for enormous returns.

 

As to DFW Airport seeming to be under-appreciated, that is the furthest thing from the truth as Fort Worth has always been the stronger proponent of the airport when it comes to Dallas or Fort Worth.  Expressing the desire for Fort Worth to have a regional airport is largely opposed by AA and DFW for obvious reason.  If it seems that there is a lack of appreciation of DFW, is it not true that Dallas led the first effort to undercut  DFW shortly after the new airport's opening?

 

Your assessment of DFW being underappreciated coupled with the notion that that attitude is coming from here, and presumably not from other interests,  is incorrect.

[Dylan]

 

For some reason, DFW Airport seems to be under-appreciated on here. [SNIP]

 

[SNIP] ... As to DFW Airport seeming to be under-appreciated, that is the furthest thing from the truth as Fort Worth has always been the stronger proponent of the airport when it comes to Dallas or Fort Worth.  Expressing the desire for Fort Worth to have a regional airport is largely opposed by AA and DFW for obvious reason.  If it seems that there is a lack of appreciation of DFW, is it not true that Dallas led the first effort to undercut  DFW shortly after the new airport's opening?

 

Your assessment of DFW being underappreciated coupled with the notion that that attitude is coming from here, and presumably not from other interests,  is incorrect.

 

 

To be clear, I meant forum posters when I said "on here." You're correct that the city of Dallas doesn't appreciate DFW Airport enough and promotes Love Field to undermine it. Fort Worth doesn't need to try and do the same thing.

[renamerusk]

To be clear, I meant forum posters when I said "on here." You're correct that the city of Dallas doesn't appreciate DFW Airport enough and promotes Love Field to undermine it. Fort Worth doesn't need to try and do the same thing.

 

 I have been a long time poster "on here" and quite honestly I don't recall a time when a poster here has shown a lack of appreciation for DFW.  Asserting that Dallas can have its cake and eat it too while Fort Worth should not is a misunderstanding of the current circumstance since proverbially  "the horse has already left the barn".

[renamerusk]

I've always said this and I still think it: there will have to be a huge change in the high end neighborhoods on the west side in the next 25 years if they don't stand in the way of a full-service commercial airport in their backyard. I wouldn't say never, but we are a long way from there.

 

  As shown, the departure/approach flight patterns at NAS JRB hover over water and the Alta Mere/377 commercial corridor.  I believe that there would be a meager, if any at all, commercial air noise generated over the high end neighbors on the west side.  Love Field approaches hover over a greater amount of Dallas' high end neighborhoods and the noise is negligible after 1-2 minutes.

 

Carswell NAS JRB -

https://www.google.c...VXmAmoQoioIbjAK

[JBB]

I'm aware of the approach and landing patterns and, as I've said before in this thread, the activity on the ground (planes taxiing, engines spooling up for takeoff and reverse thrust on landing) is just as big a noise producer.  I live 5 miles to the west of DFW and I can regularly hear activity on the ground.

[renamerusk]

.... I live 5 miles to the west of DFW and I can regularly hear activity on the ground.

 

 First, what do you think the noise has done to sales of homes in the area within 5 miles of DFW?

 

 Second, what do you think has been the impact on growth within 5 miles of DFW?

 

 As comparison, the Park Cities neighborhoods are the highest income neighborhoods within all of North Texas, along with the burgeoning Uptown neighborhoods of Dallas. In the beginning there was some concerns about re-opening Love Field, but an air disaster was and still is the greater concern for these Dallas neighborhoods than is noise.

[JBB]

Both of those are fair points, but I would counter that there isn't anyone in the 5 miles surrounding DFW with the money or the kind of influence in Fort Worth as those within 3 miles of the east side of the base.

[hannerhan]

Someone else said earlier, and I tend to agree, that the people with REAL power who live in Westover have their own jets, and the notion of driving 5 minutes to their plane vs. 20 minutes to Meacham might be very interesting for them.  When you've had huge military bombers and fighters coming in and out for decades, the sound of a G550 is going to be nothing in comparison.

 

On the flip side, there are some established FBO's and other businesses at Meacham that would be hurt by such a move, and those owners are also very powerful in some cases. 

[JBB]

Again, I don't completely disagree, however, there is a huge difference between a G550 or an F-18 taxiing and taking off and a 737. The F-18 (and probably the G550) have much smaller engines and are halfway to Oklahoma in the time it would take the 737 to taxi and leave.

[youngalum]

I live in RCCE and I hear planes all the time flying over my house.  Everything from B-52 to C-130's, but mainly fighters.  The flight pattern flies over my house all the time AND I mean all the time.

[Doohickie]

RCCE?

[JBB]

Ridglea Country Club Estates

[Doohickie]

Gracias.

[renamerusk]

(2) not many metro areas have 3 airports

 

(5) I just don't agree with this logic.  I think Fort Worth is already "on the map" and don't see an airport really changing that.  Did Burbank's airport put that city on the map?

 

(7) I do think the base is the only logical location for a new commercial airport.  And at some point, it will probably happen.  I just think we're 25 years out, and I'd love to see us focus on things like mass transit before we even talk about a real airport in FW.

 

 

#2 - not many metro areas are the fourth or fifth largest metro area in the country and have approximately 6-7 million people.

 

#5 - but airports do place a city on the map whether it is a weather map, a destination map or a business map.  If a city can tout an airport as an asset, it will enhance commercial development within its jurisdiction. In the case of DFW, as great as its impact has been, it is not within the jurisdiction of Fort Worth.  It has actually enhanced the commercial activity of the nearby cities more directly than  it has for Fort Worth.  Alliance Airport seems to be generating more commercial activity directed towards Greater Fort Worth than DFW.

 

#7 - My point.  However, the time is now,  and not 25 years in the future, to expand the use of NAS JRB.   100-200  100-200k residents are being planned for Western Tarrant and Eastern Parker Counties in 10-15 years.  Fort Worth, like Dallas, can focus on both simultaneously and find very little reason why it can not do so.

[renamerusk]

With the River District development ongoing to its south, I've been thinking about what the future may hold for the City of River Oaks, which has been largely bypassed by redevelopment and gentrification, as the River District is in Fort Worth.  In a situation where land values were to start rising in River Oaks due in part to a built-out River District, something should be done to update River Oaks Boulevard and the surrounding area...

 

 Via Air expanding into secondary markets.

 

We just cannot get ourselves to imagine a Fort Worth Airport; one that is not affiliated with another city. 

 

But If we could and when we do, I know that airlines will come in to satisfy the demand.  Fort Worth to Austin or Austin to Fort Worth and beyond would be great for our immediate communities - https://www.flyviaai.../destinations/

 

Its sad and its lamentable that we gave in too long to a failed strategy that has brought us "Greater Dallas -Little Fort Worth Regionalism" and the self inflicted complicity that has cost us our identity.

[renamerusk]

I'd like us to make a push to get passenger service at AFW too.

 

 DFW is 18 miles from Downtown; AFW is 14 miles.

 

For passenger service to really have a +95% direct impact on Downtown/Panther Island there are two options: NAS JRB @ 5 miles or FTW @ 6miles.

 

http://meacham.com/

[renamerusk]

 

We need to get airlines and travel websites to refer to the airport as "Dallas-Fort Worth" instead of "Dallas."

 

 Give us three..no give us two.. or better yet one way to force airlines, travel websites or the traveling public to include Fort Worth into their psyche.   It is inconceivable and a waste of marketing dollars and time to police what businesses and the public in general perceive about the region after several generations have grown accustomed to referring North Texas as "Dallas".  Even weather is seen as "Dallas Weather".  I know that because even in San Antonio and Houston, our weather is "Dallas Weather".

 

Having Love Field has not diminished DFW; instead it has enhanced Dallas and given its and yes, some Fort Worth residents cheaper fares.  Only DFW believes that it is being hurt.

 

If an airline is scheduled from or to Fort Worth it will be recognized as a Fort Worth flight.  Now DFW flights are commonly recognized as flight from or to Dallas.

 

A critical step in the City's identity is to have an airport.  Dallas learned that the moment DFW opened and made a strategic move to maintain a separate and distinctive airport.  Fort Worth slept!