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Poll: Where should a Tarrant County casino go? (33 member(s) have cast votes)

My question to you is since we would possibly get only one resort-style casino in the TC - where would you put it?

  1. Fort Worth Stockyards (17 votes [48.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.57%

  2. Downtown/Trinity River (6 votes [17.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.14%

  3. Near the new Cowboys stadium in Arlington (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Add on to the Gaylord Texan (4 votes [11.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.43%

  5. Alliance area (2 votes [5.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.71%

  6. Other (6 votes [17.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.14%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 jefffwd

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:32 PM

One thing the Legislature is debating in the upcoming session is a bill proposed by the Texas Gaming Association that would merge resort-style casinos, video slot machines at racetracks and gambling at state Indian reservations. The gaming association proposes opening 12 resort-style casinos in Texas, including one in Tarrant County and two in Dallas County.

#2 texastrill

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 01:50 PM

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.
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#3 Dallastar

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 02:27 PM

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.

#4 seurto

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:12 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 2 2007, 04:27 PM) View Post

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.


Thank you Dallastar! I'm so glad there is someone else not in favor of casinos. Personally I think it would be one of the worst moves the state could make, and putting one anywhere in FW, much less the Stockyards would be a terrible idea. I keep getting told how wonderful they are for $$ and they don't destroy anything, only enhance, blah, blah, blah. I say take off those rose colored glasses and take an objective look at the places that have them. frown.gif Unless I'm sadly mistaken, Louisiana STILL is one of the poorest states in the Union, even before Katrina. Once again, JMHO, but I think casinos are a MISTAKE!

#5 cbellomy

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 03:41 PM

My "other" vote is for Casino Beach, naturally. Could be a nice way to kick off the Lake Worth Centennial in six years.

#6 Keller Pirate

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 05:23 PM

QUOTE(seurto @ Jan 2 2007, 03:12 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 2 2007, 04:27 PM) View Post

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.


Thank you Dallastar! I'm so glad there is someone else not in favor of casinos. Personally I think it would be one of the worst moves the state could make, and putting one anywhere in FW, much less the Stockyards would be a terrible idea. I keep getting told how wonderful they are for $$ and they don't destroy anything, only enhance, blah, blah, blah. I say take off those rose colored glasses and take an objective look at the places that have them. frown.gif Unless I'm sadly mistaken, Louisiana STILL is one of the poorest states in the Union, even before Katrina. Once again, JMHO, but I think casinos are a MISTAKE!


Well said. You can count me among those opposed to casino's.

#7 eshigginbotham

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 07:42 PM

QUOTE(seurto @ Jan 2 2007, 03:12 PM) View Post

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, Louisiana STILL is one of the poorest states in the Union, even before Katrina.




Think of how much poorer they might be without the casinos.
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#8 Willy1

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 09:45 PM

Count me in as someone who is opposed to casinos in Texas. They draw trashy people to them like moths to a flame and I really don't want FW to increase the trash factor. Not trying to sound snobby, but just calling it like I've seen it. Casinos really do draw a bad element. Even Vegas casinos are full of gambling addicts who would rather spend their last dime on a slot machine rather than much needed dental work. Sure they bring in huge profits, but at what cost? I'd rather see FW build something that will draw in professional people.

#9 John T Roberts

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 09:49 PM

I'm also opposed to building a casino anywhere in Texas!

#10 safly

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Posted 02 January 2007 - 10:03 PM

I'm ALL FOR IT! I think it would be the BEST thing to happen in Texas since the oil boom.

And I would hope that the gambling taxes would help offset costs associated with light rail and public transportation. Use it like a packmule I say.

I am very much opposed to the idea of State gambling used in funding our public education. Especially when the system is already a scam.
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#11 Sam Stone

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 06:10 AM

Personally, I don't gamble and despise casinos. But, I'm a bit of a civil libertarian myself and I think casinos should be legal in TX. Cities still have the power of zoning to regulate where they go and what they look like. I think it's the prohibition of some activities that makes them dangerous by increasing their mystique and driving them underground. I think the Stockyards would be an appropriate place for a casino.

I don't think that the revenue should be used as a way to fix school finance. We're never going to fix school finance by cobbling together a bunch of random taxes. We should get rid of the property tax levied by ISDs and impose a state income tax.

#12 Dallastar

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE(Sam Stone @ Jan 3 2007, 06:10 AM) View Post

We should get rid of the property tax levied by ISDs and impose a state income tax.


"State income tax" is a bad word in Texas.

#13 seurto

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 07:57 AM

QUOTE(eshigginbotham @ Jan 2 2007, 09:42 PM) View Post

QUOTE(seurto @ Jan 2 2007, 03:12 PM) View Post

Unless I'm sadly mistaken, Louisiana STILL is one of the poorest states in the Union, even before Katrina.




Think of how much poorer they might be without the casinos.


Obviously I am just speaking off the top of my head - no proof, no figures, etc., etc., but I'd be willing to bet rollwink.gif the only ones making $$ off casinos are the casinos and the few people who have their hands under the table. I seriously doubt that all of the people in those casinos are from out of state; probably quite a few (? majority) are Louisianans who, rather than pinning all their hopes and dreams on one more hand, should be out using that wager to "get their teeth fixed."

It's nice to know - John, Keller Pirate, Dallastar, Willy1 - that when the casino push comes, we can join hands and block the bulldozers! happy.gif

P.S. - I thought the lottery and horse racing were supposed to cure all of our tax/financial woes cool.gif

#14 Dallastar

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 09:42 AM

[/quote]
It's nice to know - John, Keller Pirate, Dallastar, Willy1 - that when the casino push comes, we can join hands and block the bulldozers! happy.gif

[/quote]

I'm right there with you.

We may have our issue's on local city politics and pride, but we are "TEXANS" and we should stand for something. We don't need no freakin "CASINOS"!!!!!


#15 Keller Pirate

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:11 AM

In my travels I have come across casino's in what some would consider 3rd world countries and they do not allow local citizens into them. Only foreigners are allowed into the casinos to gamble and leave their money behind. This does provide jobs for the local economy without putting peoples welfare at stake. Even some European countries do not allow their citizens to enter the casinos.

As for being libertarian how about legalizing and taxing prostitution? It is already a going business right here, why not make money off it? Of course, if we go that route we might as well legalize recreational drugs and tax them too. Then folks will be too stoned to go to the casinos.

There are lots of ways to raise money in this state before going to a personal income tax. How about doubling the car registration fee? The problem in Texas is that the system is built on the backs of the indivdual. Wealthy people and businesses are benefiting off the backs of the little people that are paying exorbitant property taxes.

Casinos, prostitution and drugs were all legal at one time in this state. They were criminalized as a price for civilized society. Now greedy cities want to make them legal again to pay for things we don't need, like ornamental lakes and toll roads that should have been paid for by the developers that built all the homes that are now being taxed to the max leading to high foreclosures. The wealthy people that own property where these projects are going are selling their property for 100-600% more than their assessed value while the little guy isn't.

School financing in Texas hasn't been solved and won't be until the state and not local agencies are responsible for providing the same and equal education for every student in the entire state. You don't hear the ISD's calling for casinos, just city leaders want them and they don't care about the schools anyway.

#16 Dallastar

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 3 2007, 10:11 AM) View Post

In my travels I have come across casino's in what some would consider 3rd world countries and they do not allow local citizens into them. Only foreigners are allowed into the casinos to gamble and leave their money behind. This does provide jobs for the local economy without putting peoples welfare at stake. Even some European countries do not allow their citizens to enter the casinos.

As for being libertarian how about legalizing and taxing prostitution? It is already a going business right here, why not make money off it? Of course, if we go that route we might as well legalize recreational drugs and tax them too. Then folks will be too stoned to go to the casinos.

There are lots of ways to raise money in this state before going to a personal income tax. How about doubling the car registration fee? The problem in Texas is that the system is built on the backs of the indivdual. Wealthy people and businesses are benefiting off the backs of the little people that are paying exorbitant property taxes.

Casinos, prostitution and drugs were all legal at one time in this state. They were criminalized as a price for civilized society. Now greedy cities want to make them legal again to pay for things we don't need, like ornamental lakes and toll roads that should have been paid for by the developers that built all the homes that are now being taxed to the max leading to high foreclosures. The wealthy people that own property where these projects are going are selling their property for 100-600% more than their assessed value while the little guy isn't.

School financing in Texas hasn't been solved and won't be until the state and not local agencies are responsible for providing the same and equal education for every student in the entire state. You don't hear the ISD's calling for casinos, just city leaders want them and they don't care about the schools anyway.


Hey Keller, right on!


#17 cberen1

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 3 2007, 12:11 PM) View Post

Wealthy people and businesses are benefiting off the backs of the little people that are paying exorbitant property taxes.

The wealthy people that own property where these projects are going are selling their property for 100-600% more than their assessed value while the little guy isn't.



Yeah, yeah. Rich people suck and poor people are all virtuous. Rich people got rich by screwing other people and poor folks are poor by virtue of things entirely beyond their control. rolleyes.gif

On average wealthy people carry a higher % of the overall tax burden than poorer people. I thought the American dream was to pull yourself up by your boot straps and make something of yourself? I know plenty of people who grew up broke, busted their tails in college on merit scholorships, need scholarships and loans and now do very well for themselves.

Now I think we need a casino so we can put them back where they belong. The poor house (just kidding).

I think the biggest problem with the casino revenue is how it is handled. If it goes into the general budget it's a waste. I think we should create a fund like the Permanent University Fund, except designate it for primary and secondary education and fund it with a state casino tax. Local govt. will get the added benefit of all the sales tax revenue.

As far as the clientelle goes, you control that a lot by the quality of the establishment. There aren't a lot of ne'er do wells at the Wynn in Vegas. $25 minimum bets does a lot to control that.

Oh, I think it should be in the Stockyards.

#18 seurto

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:34 AM

They could put all the casinos and gambling houses out on the Jacksboro Hwy and see what a fine part of town it will be come -- o -- wait, they did that once! One of the Binions as I recall, and I think they had the red light district and some drug dens out there, too, to go along with the gambling....... ph34r.gif *

*just a side note, I don't know how to indicate smart*** sarcasm in a humorous/witty/good natured written form. smilewinkgrin.gif

#19 Sam Stone

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 11:54 AM

First of all, let me say that I use the term "civil libertarian" pretty loosely. Big "L" Libertarianism is not an ideology near my own beliefs. Second, we don't need to go down the drugs/prostitution road in this debate. I don't think casino gambling is quite on the same order of magnitude as drugs and prostitution, especially with regard to the levels the legislature is proposing. I just don't think a few casinos are such a big deal.

That said, none of these gambling schemes (casinos, horse racing, lottery) are sound ways to finance education. I don't expect Texans to support an income tax, either. I was just putting it out there like wishing for world peace. But if your complaint is that big businesses and wealthy individuals are benefiting while low and middle income individuals are hit harder by property taxes, then an income tax would be worth considering.

My argument is that ISDs have very unequal resources while children ought to have equal access to education. Funding should therefore be taken out of the hands of entities with unequal resources and be given over to the state. Cobbling together funding from revenue sources like gambling and cigarettes obscures the real cost of government and more importantly puts the burden on volatile and decreasing revenue sources. Lottery revenues are some of the most volatile, not to mention costly to collect. Excise taxes are per unit and have to be raised constantly to keep up with inflation, not to mention that fact that smoking is decreasing. So what's left? Sales, income, statewide property tax, fees (like an additional car registration fee that KP suggests), and severance taxes (oil and gas).

The thing is that when you take into account local option sales taxes, we're already at the high end of the sales tax spectrum with regard to other states. Statewide property taxes are a bad idea, fees suffer from the same problems as the excise taxes and are also very regressive. Severance taxes can be very volatile (look what happened in the 80s). But income taxes are used successfully in all but five states. We're the second most populous state, second largest in area, and have the second largest economy. It's time we got rid of the relics from Reconstruction and stepped up to the plate and start putting some of these resources to work for us.

#20 Keller Pirate

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:02 PM

You are right on with your 3rd paragraph Sam. The last one isn't bad either.

#21 Now in Denton

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:06 PM

QUOTE(John T Roberts @ Jan 2 2007, 09:49 PM) View Post

I'm also opposed to building a casino anywhere in Texas!


I did not vote because I don't want them in Fort Worth period.

#22 JBB

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:43 PM

QUOTE(Sam Stone @ Jan 3 2007, 11:54 AM) View Post

That said, none of these gambling schemes (casinos, horse racing, lottery) are sound ways to finance education.


One of the biggest problems I have with using gambling revenue to fund anything is that you're really just moving money around, pulling cash out of one part of the economy and putting it elsewhere. Sure, you're going to get some new money from people who choose Texas casinos over going to the out of state venues they've frequented in the past, but given the volatility of gambling income, I don't see the upside.

As for casinos in Fort Worth, I could take it or leave it, but I would rather leave it. I would rather see Texas focus on creating one resort destination gambling area in the style of Las Vegas than spreading out casinos across the state. I'm afraid spreading them out is going to result in something like what you see at Winstar or Bossier City and not something as nice as Bellagio or the Venetian.


#23 Keller Pirate

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 12:43 PM

QUOTE(cberen1 @ Jan 3 2007, 10:58 AM) View Post

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 3 2007, 12:11 PM) View Post

Wealthy people and businesses are benefiting off the backs of the little people that are paying exorbitant property taxes.

The wealthy people that own property where these projects are going are selling their property for 100-600% more than their assessed value while the little guy isn't.



On average wealthy people carry a higher % of the overall tax burden than poorer people. kidding).


Not in the state of Texas.

We have discussed the fact that tax money goes to business to finance projects, where do you think that money comes from? Why don't you try and open a taco stand and see if Ft Worth will rebate you their sales tax money?

Why do people spend $500,000 to get elected to jobs that pay $7200 a year? I have a perfect example of a quality represenitive right here in Keller, she paid $47,000 in rent to her husband on a condo in Austin over the last 2 years, in a state where the legislature is only supposed to meet 100 days every 2 years. As they say we have the best money can buy or is it something about a dogs hind leg?

#24 cberen1

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE(JBB @ Jan 3 2007, 02:43 PM) View Post

One of the biggest problems I have with using gambling revenue to fund anything is that you're really just moving money around, pulling cash out of one part of the economy and putting it elsewhere. Sure, you're going to get some new money from people who choose Texas casinos over going to the out of state venues they've frequented in the past, but given the volatility of gambling income, I don't see the upside.



You're missing a very basic (and fundamentally very sound) macro economic principal, the multiplier effect. The more times you can turn that dollar, the better off everyone is. It's a little like a pyramid scheme, but that the situation when you use a fiat currency. The economy is just not a zero sum game.

The problem is with ownership and the profit leaving the state. If the casinos were owned by actual residents of the state, it's not a bad financial deal. If they're owned by people in Las Vegas, then it's less of a benefit because the profits they "earn" leave the state instead of being spent here on lavish houses and new business ventures. You would need to have some meaningful portion of the gamblers come from out of state to make it even out. Which they inevitably would once their conferences were scheduled at the FWCC cool.gif .

And Keller. I pay many thousand dollars in a year in property tax. So do all my neighbors. How many of the blessed poor are paying what I pay? None, but they get the benefit of it. Now, I don't have a problem with the taxes I pay, but I don't want to pay them and also be considered part of the evil empire for doing it.

#25 Sam Stone

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 04:38 PM

cberen, property taxes get passed on to everyone whether they own a home or not, they just get hidden in the rent. The degree to which this happens is function of the regional housing market, the overlapping tax rates, and cumulative tax rate differentials. Generally, though, the equity curve of property taxes is U-shaped, meaning lower income and higher income households spend a larger portion of their incomes on property taxes than middle income households. Unlike homeowners, however, renters are not able to deduct these hidden property taxes from their federal personal income tax. This is another reason to replace ths ISD property tax with a state income tax.

You also pay sales taxes. Measured as a portion of income, however, lower income households pay the most sales tax and upper income households pay the least. When you look at the whole tax picture in any jurisdiction, lower income households consistently pay the most as a portion of income.

#26 youngalum

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 04:49 PM

As someone who grew up in Marshall Texas I can tell you that the casinos in Shreveport/Bossier City are typically populated by Texans. Drive over there yourself and drive through the lots, mostly Texans.

As far as what impact it had on the local economy, it is a difference maker. Downtown Shreveport has been remade because of the revenues from the casinos as has other parts of the cities. Even little ole Marshall benefits as the hotels are typically full on the weekends with people who could not get hotels in Shreveport/Bossier City (I can attest as I worked there for my parents who owned part of the Ramada Inn, Best Western and former Holiday Inn).

My vote is to put in another area, like out towards Lake Worth.

#27 Keller Pirate

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 05:31 PM

We are kind of getting off the casino topic arguing about how the tax system in Texas is stacked for the wealthy and business. The wealthy of today didn't make it that way, it has just been handed down since the 1800's when the cattle barons ran things and then the oil barons did the same and these people set up the system that still leans their way today.

Back to the casinos. This bill is being sponsered by the Texas Gaming Association. They are not an organizatation as far as I kind find. They don't have a website. It appears that a guy named Jack Pratt is the gaming association. He owns casinos in Ill, MS and LA. He is also behind legalized gambling in Mexico. Education is a buzz word in Texas so he is using it here. In Mexico he is promoting tax revenue for the government.

Here are two quotes from the Dallas Morning News article of Dec 20, "Backers say it would generate close to $1.6 billion annually to create a college tuition fund." and in the same article, "The gaming association's bill would allocate close to half of the state's revenue, $1.6 billion, into a financial aid fund to pay for college for every Texas high school graduate who meets certain minimum requirements. "Advocates estimate the proposal which would require voter approval for a constitutional amendment would bring in $3.2 billion in tax revenue to the state and an additional $800 million to city and county governments."

How long will it take to generate this tax money? 1 year, 10 years or 100 years. What are the minimum requirements for these students? Will a C student get money? Also if the chosen counties and cities are going to be reaping $800 million what are they going to do with their money? Give it away to the casino owners in a TIF? This will just be an incremental start until everyone city wants their own casino.

Why should Dalls get 2 casinos and Tarrant only one? We are faster growing. Collin county is faster growing than Dallas they should get one. Why should they be left out of the feast? See what is going to happen.

Lobbyists are already in Austin giving money to our state reps and senators to get this done for them. They didn't say how much money the casino owers expect to make, that probably wouldn't be good PR. Here is a quote from a partner with Mr. Pratt in opening up Mexico to gambling. "Mr. Castillo envisions tax revenue from casinos funding orphanages, better public schools and well-paying jobs. A side benefit, said the self-described hustler whose personal gambling strategy consists of betting against lousy gamblers, would be a lifestyle of the rich and famous for himself." In that same article the opponents mentioned prostitution, alcoholism and compulsive gambling as side effects of gambling.

Mexico is going to use legal casinos to prop up its declining tourist revenues. Reminds me of a city building a hotel to improve tourism. mellow.gif



#28 seurto

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Posted 03 January 2007 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE(youngalum @ Jan 3 2007, 06:49 PM) View Post

As someone who grew up in Marshall Texas I can tell you that the casinos in Shreveport/Bossier City are typically populated by Texans. Drive over there yourself and drive through the lots, mostly Texans.

As far as what impact it had on the local economy, it is a difference maker. Downtown Shreveport has been remade because of the revenues from the casinos as has other parts of the cities. Even little ole Marshall benefits as the hotels are typically full on the weekends with people who could not get hotels in Shreveport/Bossier City (I can attest as I worked there for my parents who owned part of the Ramada Inn, Best Western and former Holiday Inn).

My vote is to put in another area, like out towards Lake Worth.

Hey, youngalum - I lived in Marshall back about 40 years ago; go to visit periodically - would never move back. smilewink.gif From what I can see the "boats" in Shreveport/Bossier city have only benefitted the end of Marshall by the interstate. The rest of the town has been virtually stagnant. Now, I must admit, last time I was down there (this summer), a few things had been improved in town, but certainly not much. I don't think they are ever going to finish the old courthouse are they? I talked to the lady who was in charge of the Hotel Marshall renovation and at that point they were making great strides and it was looking beautiful. I just don't know how they are going to maintain it. Seems to me, Marshall could truly benefit from the Louisiana bound traffic if they would make it worth the few minutes to drive into town, rather than just stopping beside 20. Very few people are gonna go to the Pottery more than once. Jefferson sure knows how to bring folks in.

Sorry, I realize this is off topic, but I don't run into people from Marshall very often. Sooooo much history there and in the surrounding area that is under appreciated. Was a VERY important city once.

hmmmm Neely's (the real Neely's) Brown Pig cheeburga.gif

#29 cberen1

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 09:11 AM

QUOTE(Sam Stone @ Jan 3 2007, 06:38 PM) View Post

cberen, property taxes get passed on to everyone whether they own a home or not, they just get hidden in the rent.


Not the case in every state. In MN I got to deduct my prorated property tax from my state and federal income taxes. Same in Wisconsin. I'm not sure about the other 47 states, but there is a way around it without creating a state income tax.

QUOTE(Sam Stone @ Jan 3 2007, 06:38 PM) View Post

The degree to which this happens is function of the regional housing market, the overlapping tax rates, and cumulative tax rate differentials. Generally, though, the equity curve of property taxes is U-shaped, meaning lower income and higher income households spend a larger portion of their incomes on property taxes than middle income households. Unlike homeowners, however, renters are not able to deduct these hidden property taxes from their federal personal income tax. This is another reason to replace ths ISD property tax with a state income tax.

You also pay sales taxes. Measured as a portion of income, however, lower income households pay the most sales tax and upper income households pay the least. When you look at the whole tax picture in any jurisdiction, lower income households consistently pay the most as a portion of income.


Thanks for the civics lesson. My point wasn't about the proportion of my income dedicated to taxes, my point was about the proportion of the overall tax burden fielded by me. If someone makes about $25,000 a year, they're total tax burden is probably less than $5,000 including all forms of taxation. But for argument's sakee let's say it's twice that, $10,000. I probably pay around to $50,000 a year. Now, the question is, do I get 5 times the benefit that the guy making $25,000 a year does? The answer is "NO". I subsidize his existence. And regardless of the form of taxation (except maybe on cigs) I pay more in actual dollars than he/she does across the board.

Moreover, I'm less of a burden on the system. I get no aide and require no attention from local authorities. I cost the city very little. My work requires expensive real estate downtown, on which more taxes are paid. My corporation is double taxed, is his sole proprietorship? If you take my total contribution to the city/state/fed government and net out the cost of my existence to those entities, the gap between my contribution and "his" get considerably wider.

#30 Sam Stone

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 11:54 AM

I didn't mean to launch into a civics lesson. And sorry for going off topic into taxes.

It's not accurate to say that you get no aide and require no attention from local authorities. Fires, crimes, auto accidents can happen to anyone at anytime so we pay police, fire, and courts to be there. You get potable water, sewer lines, garbage collection, road repair, regulation of utilities, code enforcement (of your neighbors, in the restaurants where you eat, of industries). We all get a tremendous amount of attention from local authorities every day, we just don't realize it. Not all of these things can be prorated to what you pay in taxes. And even if they were, you might find it less fair--there is always a bigger fish, someone wealthier who pays even more (are the Basses subsidizing you? Does Anne Marion think of you as a burden on the system? Does Dee Kelly cost the city less than you? Maybe they really have earned the right to have a greater say in city affairs than the rest of us.). The benefit principle only goes so far. To calculate how much of a burden anyone is on the system is practically impossible.

The things getting the most subsidization through the property tax are tax exempt properties (like churches, hospitals, and museums) and big companies that have scored tax abatements and rebates (like the company that purchased the Radio Shack campus in their sale-lease back deal).

A casino would create jobs, export hotel taxes to people from other places, generate sales taxes from all the other stuff they would sell, and even generate property taxes.

#31 RD Milhollin

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 12:08 PM

Very interesting topic, excellent points being made by all sides. I voted for the second option, Downtown/River. I would prefer to see a casino built on the east side of Downtown in place of the closest train yard walking distance to the Convention Center and hotels. This sort of hinges on a viable bypass being built for the freight trains crossing at Tower 55, and a lessened need for a switchyard adjacent to downtown with increasing property value. The casino(s) would create an additional draw for convention visitors, and keep money in the local region, as has been previously discussed.

That said, I personally am no gambler, or at least not a very good one. I have never done it recreationally or on any regular basis; just a way to pass the time and get free drinks between sessions at meetings I have had to attend in Las Vegas.


#32 Keller Pirate

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 01:50 PM

While Googling bowling alleys after Sam's post about the Lucky Strike I came across an interesting blog. The things the lady said are just her opinion and not scientific but...She was talking about Reno, NV and she was saying that while the population was booming the casino business was not. Unlike Las Vegas, Reno was not imploding their old casinos, they are turning them into condo's. According to her Reno's gambling business was being hurt by the Indian casinos in California.

Reno is the self described Biggest Little City in America and always depended on California folks to cross the border to gamble. Now those people are crossing the border to live and maybe not so much gamble.

Anyway maybe after the casino market gets oversaturated here and the promoters move on with the money to greener pastures the Tarrant casino can become condos which would be good for tax revenue. I would bet that the Tower generates far more taxes with condo owners than it did when it was an office building.

#33 cjyoung

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 04:00 PM

Our addiction to sports, video games, microwaves, television, breast implants, and gambling go hand in hand.

How do you pick one evil over another?

Personally, I wouldn't ever go to a casino, but can I tell the next man that he can't? I would be more inclined to tell him to stop leaving church early to catch the Cowboys on TV and to stop smoking, drinking, eating fast food.

#34 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 04:34 PM

As an avid Texas Hold 'Em player and a Christian I'm morally torn on the issue. However, I would be lying if I said the thought of a Niles City Casino in the Stockyards with regular attendance from Doyle Brunson (since our fair city plays a major historical role in the game called the Cadillac of poker) and multitudes of other famous players riding the Godfather's coattails and making Fort Worth one of the major stops on the World Poker Tour or the World Series of Poker doesn't excite me. At least I can dream...

#35 WESTHMESS

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Posted 04 January 2007 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 2 2007, 02:27 PM) View Post

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.


I'm with you on this. I've already read the posts about how poor LA is. They are very much like Mexico. The leaders are lining their pockets while the money that should be used for the state is in their pockets. Let Dallas have the gambling. I don't want casinos in Ft. Worth. Thanks for your vote.
Wes


#36 Dallastar

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 10:23 AM

QUOTE(WESTHMESS @ Jan 4 2007, 10:28 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 2 2007, 02:27 PM) View Post

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.


I'm with you on this. I've already read the posts about how poor LA is. They are very much like Mexico. The leaders are lining their pockets while the money that should be used for the state is in their pockets. Let Dallas have the gambling. I don't want casinos in Ft. Worth. Thanks for your vote.
Wes


Last I checked Dallas in apart of Texas.

I'm confused on the people that are saying "let Dallas have the casino's, don't want them in Ft. Worth" you got to be kidding yourselfs. If Dallas get's Casino's Ft. Worth will get them too! That's why I said I don't want them in Texas period. I know if Houston gets them or Austin or San Antonio it will be a domino effect, or even El Paso, there will be every justification in the world used as to why this city or that city needs a casino, and you better believe helping education and lowering taxes will be used over and over and over.

#37 Keller Pirate

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 11:52 AM

The proposal currently out there says nothing about the cities of Dallas or Ft Worth getting a casino. It says Dallas County will get 2 casinos and Tarrant County will get 1 casino. You can bet these casinos will go to the city that wants them bad enough to contribute taxpayer money to get them.

By the way, nothing says Loser like having casinos in your town. Other than Las Vegas, casinos have been sold as economic saviors to depressed economies. Are we that bad off that we need them? Business will look at a town with a casino and it won't be a positive. I also think Dallas would do better shaking off that stigma than Ft Worth since we are already behind them in attracting new businesses.

As to locations, I have been thinking about that as a casino owner and I would definitely want my casino to have freeway access. That would leave out the Stockyards and DTFW is too crowded. I would think on the edge of town say I-35 and 114 near the speedway would be great, 114 could bring in folks from the east and I-35 could deliver people from north and south plus I would get the extra kick 3 times a year when the big races were in town. Since these are "resort style" I am envisioning a hotel-casino operation there. Just one problem, I believe that is in Denton County and they aren't on the casino list, yet. This leaves me thinking Arlington is my best bet. Freeway access, I can cater to mom and dad while the kids are playing at six flags or the water park in the summer and I can get the football crowds at least 8 times a year when the Cowboys play.

cjyoung said "Personally, I wouldn't ever go to a casino, but can I tell the next man that he can't? I would be more inclined to tell him to stop leaving church early to catch the Cowboys on TV and to stop smoking, drinking, eating fast food."

Everyone is free to go to a casino, it is just that the people of Texas and most other states have wisely decided they don't want them and the associated problems that go with them. We just lost a police officer to an alleged drunk driver, how much will casinos and their free drinks until you are tapped out, going to add to the carnage?

#38 JBB

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 5 2007, 11:52 AM) View Post

By the way, nothing says Loser like having casinos in your town. Other than Las Vegas, casinos have been sold as economic saviors to depressed economies. Are we that bad off that we need them?


I don't know that we're that bad off, but it is an easy alternative for those who don't want to face the inevitable fact that big changes are necessary to fix the education system.


#39 Sam Stone

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 01:32 PM

Why is booze always the bad guy in the drunk driving debate? Why doesn't driving shoulder any of the blame? Sober drivers kill far more people than drunk pedestrians. Booze has enabled people to do stupid and sometimes dangerous things for thousands of years while driving which is far more dangerous and a relative newcomer gets off scott free. devil.gif

Public transportation, human scaled design, pederstrian friendly streetscapes, and mixed use development will save more lives than banning 1 casino, especially if that casino is forced out into the fringes where people will have no choice but to drive to get there.

#40 cberen1

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 5 2007, 01:52 PM) View Post

how much will casinos and their free drinks until you are tapped out, going to add to the carnage?


You obviously haven't been in too many casinos in the last ten years. They just don't give away nearly as much stuff as they used to. You used to be able to hop on a subsidized plane to Vegas for little or sometimes nothing if you had $500 in your pocket for gambling. They used to throw drinks at anyone who was of age. Most of that has gone away now. It's more competitive, margins are getting squeezed.

Don't get me wrong, there are still comps to be had, but you won't get them at a $5 blackjack table or the $1 slots. You better look like you're there to "spend" some money.

And since I'm feeling rowdy today, try this on for size: Kill an unborn baby, ok, but don't you dare drop a nickel in that slot machine!

#41 Keller Pirate

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 04:24 PM

I was in Vegas last year and after 3 days of just walking around and not gambling, as soon as I sat down at a slot on my last day the waitress was right there to take my drink order. I got lucky and left with a $20 profit and free drink. I enjoy gambling.

I am not a big gambler but I have been to Vegas many times over the years as well as Reno. I only do it for the fun, not to make money. It is amazing how many people I meet that tell me they won money when they go gambling. As a matter of fact, I think I am the only person I know that ever lost at a casino. ph34r.gif

Mr. Pratt, the guy behind this idea owns casinos in Aurora, IL, Shreveport, LA and the Mississippi coast.
I haven't been to the last two locations but I have been to the riverboat casinos in Aurora. They haven't done much to help out that town. As my friend Wayne Campbell said, "I live in Aurora, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago - excellent. I've had plenty of jo-jobs; nothing I'd call a career. Let me put it this way: I have an extensive collection of nametags and hairnets."

One of the biggest complaints in places like Atlantic City and I will lump Aurora in with them is that while they provide some jobs and maybe some tax money. The cities that let them in are depressed economies and the casino areas look nice but they do not attract other development to the area. The taxes that the cities earn is not enough to let them develop their towns on their own, since a lot of money is used for police and street improvements for the casinos.

As for free drinks I'm glad to hear they aren't to common anymore. What if a casino went in the Stockyards or DTFW Trinity River area and was offering free drinks? It might hurt some of the other establishments in DTFW that charge people to drink.

Sam, I think booze should be the bad guy in the drunk driving debate. shakehead.gif Maybe we can change the law and just make it illegal to drunk wreck. tongue.gif

As for cebren1's "It's more competitive, margins are getting squeezed." I would submit that is becasue there are now too many casinos and building some here will further squeeze them making their contribution to the tax base smaller than promised.

Good analogy about abortion and gambling. I wonder if gambling and the right to own and operate casinos has ever made it to the Supreme Court? I read one article that said gambling was now legal in 22 states. If that is accurate then 28 must not allow it. I have also seen information that the Supreme Court sometimes takes into account how many states allow or don't allow certain things when making rulings.

The DMN article from back in December that sparked this thread said that voters will have to approve a change in the state constitution to allow casinos. I'm not sure why the lobbyists are paying the legislature, maybe just to get it on the ballot. Anyway I will vote no, but I can understand some people will think it would be nice not to have to drive to Oklahoma or Shreveport to have some fun gambling. I just wish they would consider the impact it will have where they live.

I'm with Sam, if we are going to change something lets get the liquor laws straighted out in this state first, then we can legalize the rest of the vices.

#42 DrkLts

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 05:36 PM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 5 2007, 11:52 AM) View Post

This leaves me thinking Arlington is my best bet. Freeway access, I can cater to mom and dad while the kids are playing at six flags or the water park in the summer and I can get the football crowds at least 8 times a year when the Cowboys play.


Thats probably most realistic. Doesn't Arlignton usually bill itself as the entertainment capital of TX? So that might be the tarrant location. blah! unsure.gif


#43 DrkLts

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 05:42 PM

QUOTE(Willy1 @ Jan 2 2007, 09:45 PM) View Post

Count me in as someone who is opposed to casinos in Texas. They draw trashy people to them like moths to a flame and I really don't want FW to increase the trash factor. Not trying to sound snobby, but just calling it like I've seen it. Casinos really do draw a bad element.


Well, I've been to a casino twice and plan on it again...
I just learned today that I'm trash. cry.gif

#44 safly

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Posted 05 January 2007 - 07:59 PM

Hello Willy1. My name is SAFLY , and I too am trash(ed). smile.gif


I am not too sure that TEXAS CASINOS would be allowed to offer FREE drinks here. TABC may have something to say about that. I think??? Probably have to further research their ATLAS of LAWS. Gee, who uses an ATLAS anymore? dry.gif

Why would ARLINGTON want a State allowed CASINO in their backyard? I'm assuming that if the STATE allows for a CASINO themed resort in their COUNTY, then they would surely want it placed elsewhere within the county lines and still receive full benefits like all the other cities within the county. I'm thinking The Gaylord Texan Resort would be best suited. So would Lake Worth. But PP's assesment with the East Fork is also rather appealing, especially if it draws in some FWCC visitors wink.gif biggrin.gif .

As for the FREE drinks at a Casino and the correlation to what occured with one of our FINEST. I don't see it. Perhaps that one IDIOT of a driver would have been still gambling away til 9AM. Then Breakfast Buffet time. Prime Rib with eggs. Hey, there is another entity that would benefit from this. The Purveyors of Texas BEEF. Go Cattlemen!

QUOTE
As my friend Wayne Campbell said, "I live in Aurora, Illinois, which is a suburb of Chicago - excellent. I've had plenty of jo-jobs; nothing I'd call a career. Let me put it this way: I have an extensive collection of nametags and hairnets."


Sorry KP, even though it was a little funny. The Service and Hospitality Industry in the state of TEXAS is no joking matter. BIG "B.I.G." business. cheeburga.gif

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#45 Dismuke

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 03:02 AM

There is a hotel developer who supposedly has an option to purchase the Baker Hotel in Mineral Wells with plans to restore it and open it back up as a hotel. The story is if casino gambling is legalized in Texas, the Baker will become a casino hotel - which certainly would be a much needed shot in the arm for Mineral Wells which has been economically suffering ever since the military base closed in the 1970s. The developer in one article I read said that he is interested in restoring the hotel regardless as to whether or not the gambling is legalized but others in the same article were skeptical that the hotel would be viable without it. Personally, I would love to see that hotel saved - it is in very sad shape at the moment. I actually got to go in it a while back and I have some pictures that I will eventually post when I get a chance to do so.
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#46 jefffwd

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Posted 06 January 2007 - 09:09 AM

An employee that opened the Gaylord Texan told me that they already have plans in place to add on to the resort/hotel a casio wing if laws in Texas ever allow it. To me, it already looks like a Vegas casino without the slots. A year round indoor water park is also going up across from the Gaylord. When there are conventions going on traffic there is a nightmare! Went to lunch there the other day and went to see the ICE! exhibit. Too long of a line to stand in for such a small display IMHO. However, it was 9 degrees in there and I couldn't feel my ears when I got out so perhaps it was a good thing that it wasn't larger. tongue.gif

#47 seurto

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 12:37 PM

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 5 2007, 12:23 PM) View Post

QUOTE(WESTHMESS @ Jan 4 2007, 10:28 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Dallastar @ Jan 2 2007, 02:27 PM) View Post

QUOTE(texastrill @ Jan 2 2007, 01:50 PM) View Post

My vote was for the Stockyards.Leave the downtown casinos to Dallas's and Houston's of the state.The Stockyards would probably be the best setting for a casino in Texas,imo.


Personally I don't wont them in Texas period, I know the state would make a ton of money off of them. just in my personal opinion.


I'm with you on this. I've already read the posts about how poor LA is. They are very much like Mexico. The leaders are lining their pockets while the money that should be used for the state is in their pockets. Let Dallas have the gambling. I don't want casinos in Ft. Worth. Thanks for your vote.
Wes


Last I checked Dallas in apart of Texas.

I'm confused on the people that are saying "let Dallas have the casino's, don't want them in Ft. Worth" you got to be kidding yourselfs. If Dallas get's Casino's Ft. Worth will get them too! That's why I said I don't want them in Texas period. I know if Houston gets them or Austin or San Antonio it will be a domino effect, or even El Paso, there will be every justification in the world used as to why this city or that city needs a casino, and you better believe helping education and lowering taxes will be used over and over and over.

Wow - I'm away from the Forum for a few days and look at the fun debate I missed!! Well, for what little they are worth, I'll throw in my 2 cents:

I absolutely agree with Dallastar's comment about the possible (and probable) domino affect of casinos. I think there are too many wealthy cities that would not be willing to sit around and be observers. Plus, the whole "Texas is so large" factor would probably be brought in.

Keller Pirate says: By the way, nothing says Loser like having casinos in your town. Other than Las Vegas, casinos have been sold as economic saviors to depressed economies. Are we that bad off that we need them? Business will look at a town with a casino and it won't be a positive. I also think Dallas would do better shaking off that stigma than Ft Worth since we are already behind them in attracting new businesses.

Hear! Hear!! I would expect the "family friendly" and more faith based businesses and conventions to drop FW to the bottom of their list for possible sites with casinos in town.

Sam Stone says: Why is booze always the bad guy in the drunk driving debate? Why doesn't driving shoulder any of the blame? Sober drivers kill far more people than drunk pedestrians.

One certainly has to agree with the last line -just about the only person a drunk pedestrian is going to kill is going to be himself. Interesting point, however, if booze wasn't always involved (the bad guy) in drunk driving wrecks, there wouldn't be any drunk driving wrecks.

Drklts says: Well, I've been to a casino twice and plan on it again...
I just learned today that I'm trash.


Join the crowd - I've been to Shreveport a couple of times; gamble on cruise boats or in the Bahamas, so I'm in that same trashcan if you want to be there. I still don't want casinos in Texas.

Safly says: I am not too sure that TEXAS CASINOS would be allowed to offer FREE drinks here.

pshaw - I'd take bets on that! smilewink.gif

cberen1 says: And since I'm feeling rowdy today, try this on for size: Kill an unborn baby, ok, but don't you dare drop a nickel in that slot machine!

That is a whole 'nother issue that we can discuss at another time and probably another location--preferably flame proof, as it is gonna get REALLY HOT!


So, I think I'm caught up now - all of this is, of course, JMHO, and intended in the spirit of open debate cool.gif


#48 Sam Stone

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Posted 08 January 2007 - 01:38 PM

I missed that observation by safly about TX casinos not being aboe to serve free drinks. That's a good point. My understanding of the alcoholic beverage code is that the only businesses allowed to serve free drinks (not including the occasiona comp) are the ones without liquor licenses. In fact, the law is pretty strict about drink specials, especially deep discounts (like nickel beer nights). On the other hand, casinos in TX would probably be exempt from the rules that govern bars (gross receipts from alcohol sales > 51%) since most of their money is coming from gambling. They'd look more like a restaurant or hotel from the POV of the law. But still unable to serve free drinks unless they wanted to completely forgo a license and never sell any. Do I have any of this right? Any restaurant/bar folk out there?

#49 safly

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 01:06 AM

Here. And that is why I made that point. I know of a DTFW latenight BYOB myself, and am very atuned to the TABC laws and bylaws in regards to the operation. Irregardless of alcohol sales percentages, If you have a TABC permit then you must comply with. Dollar boozee, hear we come.


QUOTE

An employee that opened the Gaylord Texan told me that they already have plans in place to add on to the resort/hotel a casio wing if laws in Texas ever allow it. To me, it already looks like a Vegas casino without the slots.....


that is why I chose GTexan. Heard about their plans too and it makes ABSOLUTE sense on what they are doing over there. If it passes, they are in great shape to open one up in WORLD RECORD TIME. Great PR stunt for the first in Texas??? Looks that way. A PBS Docu- will surely follow. wink.gif
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#50 seurto

seurto

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Posted 09 January 2007 - 07:52 AM

Just asking - really - but aren't the TABC laws subject to change? If a casino group came in waving a big enough wad of cash and said "we need license to open the bars at any time at any price," would our fine upstanding legislature et al say "no, we do this for the good people of Texas."? Or would it be, "well, ya'know, it will benefit the people in the longrun if we give in to this group now"? Not that I'm cynical about gov'ment or anything (especially these days rolleyes.gif )...........




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