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Modern Streetcar Dead (?)


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#201 Fort Worthology

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:25 PM

The initial route recommended by HDR was a downtown-to-Near Southside route along South Main to Magnolia.
 
(The newly redone South Main is, in fact, prepped for streetcar tracks already, just in case.)[/quote]

How so?

 

Buried utilities were moved, and the road bed was built to support streetcar tracks with minimal alteration needed in the future.


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#202 JBB

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 09:26 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  



#203 Austin55

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:06 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  

 

Well, half of it anyway.

 

A 2009 forum post has the opening in 2013



#204 Volare

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 08:27 AM

Meanwhile in Dallas...

We sure showed those Feds where they could stick their money!

 

DALLAS_ELECTRIC_STREETCAR_43332391.JPG



#205 Austin55

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:15 PM

It's interesting that one of the projects that the city said they needed to concentrate on in lieu of streetcars, the commuter line that became TEX Rail, is still at best a year from completion 7 years later.  I went back and couldn't find what the projected completion date was at that time, but I bet it wasn't late-2018 or 2019.  

 

The T's Masterplan has no other rail commuter recommended after the SW leg is complete, whenever that will be. It does recommend Streetcars going S, W & N from downtown. Presumably, the streetcar discussions will pick up again in a few years.

 

I also wonder if there is any thought to giving streetcars priority over the SW leg. 



#206 renamerusk

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 02:21 PM

[The T's Masterplan]... recommend Streetcars going S, W & N from downtown. Presumably, the streetcar discussions will pick up again in a few years.

 

The discussions should have been picked up "yesterday" as nearly if not all of Fort Worth's peers and those considered to be of a higher stature already have street cars and now are expanding their network.

 

Fort Worth is the last city to the party. :no:



#207 Austin55

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:14 PM

Here is the 2010 proposal study. I'd never seen it before.

 

 

 

http://fortworthgov....&meta_id=102267



#208 Dylan

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:20 PM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown. It failed to run up to the Stockyards, and it failed to run down Magnolia.

 

Basically, they proposed starting with half of a northern line and half of a southern line. It would be better if they started with a full northern line or a full southern line.

 

The starter system would have suffered from poor ridership until any extensions were built. It looks like economic development was the primary goal.


-Dylan


#209 Doohickie

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:16 AM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown.


...which makes one wonder why the downtown interests were so set against it.


Essentially it would have been little more that putting Molly on rails.


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#210 Fort Worthology

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:50 AM

That starter system didn't serve any big destinations outside of downtown. It failed to run up to the Stockyards, and it failed to run down Magnolia.

 

 

The thinking at the time amongst a lot of Near Southside powers-that-be was that running the first line down South Main (which would've been the first part of the system constructed) would prompt the Magnolia expansion on a faster timescale. There were talks about ways to fund the Magnolia expansion as rapidly as possible using Southside local dollars, following the go-ahead to start building South Main.

 

It's been years and I don't recall where things were left off, but for obvious reasons, these plans were shelved when the main project was canned.


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#211 Volare

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 08:56 AM

The initial proposal was significantly altered in an attempt to garner the approval of the 1% who run this town. When they pulled their approval for even this modest plan, the streetcar was dead. My guess is the Magnolia expansion being fast tracked is what prompted the scuttling of the whole thing. Nothing happens here without the 1% approval. That's the big difference between Fort Worth and Dallas- Fort Worth is small enough to be dominated by a very few.



#212 Austin55

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:44 AM

The starter system would have suffered from poor ridership until any extensions were built. It looks like economic development was the primary goal.

 

I would expect Panther Island's streetcar to be similar, probably due to the funding nature of the TIF needing to make thier money back through reinvestment.



#213 Electricron

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 02:09 AM

I think we are forgetting the lesson we should have learned with the collapse of Fort Worth's streetcar project. While the 50% funding from the Federal government could be attained, the 50% from the local government couldn't - and the main reason why was because the project hadn't and wouldn't have completed the EIS process in time. It wasn't ready to build. 

 

The main reasons why the Dallas project proceeded; local funding was available, another EIS process was already underway and it wasn't difficult to add the streetcar project to it, the route was politically settled upon quickly, and the local neighborhoods wanted it. 

 

We're still arguing over where the first streetcar line in Fort Worth should be built, and how large the streetcar system should be. The local government was not ready then nor is it now. We need to start the project from the beginning, follow the procedural steps a step at a time, define a system and the first route, define where the local funding will come from, complete the EIS, and then ask for Federal funding once all the i's a dotted and the t's are crossed. 



#214 Doohickie

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:33 AM

That is incorrect.

 

The local funding was identified; it was coming from the Uptown and Southside TIFs.


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#215 Electricron

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:19 PM

That is incorrect.
 
The local funding was identified; it was coming from the Uptown and Southside TIFs.

Maybe they had identified where the money was going to come from, but had those TIFs agreed to where the route was going to be located exactly, and which neighborhood would get the streetcar built first? I suggest they hadnt settle those questions, which is why the city council failed to approve it. The i-s were not doted and the t-s were not cerossed because a proper EIS procedure and process wasnt followed.

#216 JBB

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:33 PM

The city council sandbagged the entire deal because downtown interests didn't want it.  It had nothing to do with any of ^that^.



#217 Dylan

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:37 PM

Maybe they had identified where the money was going to come from, but had those TIFs agreed to where the route was going to be located exactly, and which neighborhood would get the streetcar built first? I suggest they hadnt settle those questions, which is why the city council failed to approve it. The i-s were not doted and the t-s were not cerossed because a proper EIS procedure and process wasnt followed.

 

Fort Worth city council voted to stop studying the plan. The study Austin posted clearly identifies a recommended starter route.


-Dylan


#218 Fort Worthology

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Posted 18 January 2018 - 09:36 AM

 


 

Fort Worth city council voted to stop studying the plan. The study Austin posted clearly identifies a recommended starter route.

 

 

Exactly right. The vote was not to build the streetcar right away - it was to continue with the study. The initial route was clearly identified and spelled out by HDR in their documentation. The Near Southside and Uptown TIFs were on board with that initial route.


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#219 Electricron

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 02:34 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.

500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500? 



#220 txbornviking

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:18 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.

500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500? 

 

It's heart breaking to think Ft Worth threw away $25million that instead went to that instead. No doubt our ridership would have been FAR above those numbers. Kansas City's streetcar is averaging nearly 5500 riders per day. Cincinnati's somewhat troubled streetcar has averaged 1600-2000 per day.

smh



#221 JBB

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 09:52 AM

The latest I read from the Dallas Forum suggests there are less than 500 passengers per day using their mew and free Oak Cliff streetcar.
500! There are some suggesting the 10,000 using the TRE or TexRail isn't enough to warrant the costs, what do you think about less than 500?


So a week ago the streetcar in Fort Worth didn't happen because the study hadn't been completed and they didn't know how to pay for it (wrong), but now it didn't happen because of low ridership on the TRE and a streetcar line built half a decade later 30 miles away? I'm looking forward to next week's reason.

#222 Volare

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:46 PM

Dallas is already about to build an extension to their streetcar.

 

https://www.dallasne...town-omni-hotel

 

With this extension I would expect the ridership numbers to increase substantially, and even more so when the final leg is connected.

 

But don't worry, we showed them now it's not done in Fort Worth.



#223 Austin55

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:52 PM

$8M to go 2 blocks?

#224 Volare

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 08:58 PM

Very busy streets in that area and significant intersections.I would imagine this likely includes the station cost too.



#225 A_Random_Username

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 09:01 PM

Build a street car with a stop or 2 close to me it at least within several blocks and Ill ride it daily.

#226 Austin55

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:31 PM

Something to ponder...

 

TEXRail = $1,000,000,000 to build /  8k* pax per day = $125k capital costs per rider

 

2008 Streetcar = $100,000,000 to build** / 2k* pax per day = $50k capital costs per rider

 

* Estimated

**Adjusted for inflation



#227 roverone

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:03 PM

I'm glad that you are brining up the costs of theses things -- it is something I have contemplated often, and I think have included in a post at some point.  I think once there are so many zeros, or federal funds are helping, that people stop doing the math of just how very expensive things are per rider.  And what other things could be accomplished with the same funds (not that the same dollars are available for any use).



#228 renamerusk

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Posted 01 February 2019 - 06:36 PM

Randomly chosen Street Car Systems with cost:

 

(2018) The El Paso Street car system Turn-key - 4.8miles, $97,000,000 = $19,400,000/mile

(2015) The Dallas Oak Cliff Street Car, Turn-Key - 3.6 miles, $79, 000,000 = $21,944,444/mile

.

 

A rough estimate for a Courthouse to Stockyards Street Car System, Turn-key - 2.9 miles @ $19,400,000-21,900,000/mile = $56,260,000 - 63,510,000 Cost.



#229 Electricron

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 04:02 AM

Randomly chosen Street Car Systems with cost:

 

(2018) The El Paso Street car system Turn-key - 4.8miles, $97,000,000 = $19,400,000/mile

(2015) The Dallas Oak Cliff Street Car, Turn-Key - 3.6 miles, $79, 000,000 = $21,944,444/mile

.

 

A rough estimate for a Courthouse to Stockyards Street Car System, Turn-key - 2.9 miles @ $19,400,000-21,900,000/mile = $56,260,000 - 63,510,000 Cost.

Dallas' Oak Cliff streetcar is mostly a single track operation, if it were double tracked it would be almost twice as long, about half its' distance travel is on a one way street. El Paso's streetcar is entirely a single tack operation, it only reaches out less than 3 miles north of downtown following all one way streets.

Will Fort Worth be happy with a single track operation along North Main Street? I'm thinking since North Main is not a one-way street, it will probably require double track operations north of the County Courthouse. So that cost for 2.9 miles needs to be recalculated into costs for almost 6 miles.....



#230 renamerusk

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Posted 03 February 2019 - 02:50 PM

 

A rough estimate for a Courthouse to Stockyards Street Car System, Turn-key - 2.9 miles @ $19,400,000-21,900,000/mile = $56,260,000 - 63,510,000 Cost.

 

...Will Fort Worth be happy with a single track operation along North Main Street? I'm thinking since North Main is not a one-way street, it will probably require double track operations north of the County Courthouse. So that cost for 2.9 miles needs to be recalculated into costs for almost 6 miles.....

 

BTW, I used the Courthouse as a starting pointing because it is an easily recognized landmark.  Using the M&O Tunnel as the starting point only adds  .10 miles to my 2.9 miles, so that the distance between Downtown and the Stockyards is actually of a range of 3.0 - 3.3 miles. My preference is not to use North Main Street for crossing the river.

 

 ER, over time, we've engaged in some spirited debates which have been great opportunities for me to improve my understanding or have a confirmation of my opinions about transit issues; and also during our back & forth I have come to believe that you may have some professional expertise in the transit industry.  So, I have a friendly request of you during the next when you have an opportunity to take a short walking tour of a stretch of road in Downtown Fort Worth; here is your assignment, weather permitting -

 

Begin your tour at the intersection of Taylor Street and Second Street (T2).  Here you will be standing above the decommissioned M&O Subway Tunnel.  Now walk north along Taylor Street towards the Trinity River; your walk will cover a gradient peaked at T2 and bottomed at the banks of the river.  This is the cost savings solution of using the decommissioned tunnel to connect Downtown to points north and west.

 

The first thing you realize is that using North Main Street  Bridge is not the path of least resistance to the Stockyards; the M&O Tunnel is.

 

The option that I continue to prefer to connect the Stockyards and point north with a fixed rail system is to build a bridge crossing the river and crossing beneath the North Street Bridge.  From the crossing, the fixed rail system would route along North Commerce Street and bridge over North Side Drive and continue the route into the Stockyards, Exchange Street @ Niles.  This route is virtually undeveloped and currently has ample room for double tracking.

 

If you have the time, begin a second walking tour.  Begin again at T2.  It is easy to envision model Taylor Street to the DART/Bryan Street Transit Corridor. If you end your walk at Lancaster Avenue using a Taylor-Texas-Jennings Route (TTJ), you will see the existing pathway in a tunnel beneath the rail tracks into the southern and eastern sectors of Fort Worth.  Along the TTJ route, once again there is ample room for double tracks if Taylor Street is designated a fixed rail/bus corridor.

 

If Trinity Metro or the City are not opening themselves up to more than a North Main Street route, then they have blinders on.  The actual cost of the Downtown to Stockyards train is not as formidable as contemplated.  A restorative use of the existing infrastructure (tunnels) has the real possibility of making the cost of either route very feasible.



#231 txbornviking

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 10:49 AM

The Council just voted not to proceed with Phase 3 of this study. The vote was 5 to 3 to not continue. Councilman Jungus Jordan offered the motion. Those voting to not proceed with Phase 3 were Jordan, Burdette, Moncrief, Scarth, and Zimmerman. The three who voted to continue the study were Burns, Moss, and Espino. It is unfortunate that Councilwoman Hicks was not present.

The Council talked about how they chose an alternate direction to get the Omni Hotel built. Maybe they can come up with an alternate plan for the streetcars.

 

still one of the most disheartening decisions our city has made in the past decande  :cry:



#232 John T Roberts

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 03:22 PM

I agree.  Look at how many of those Council Members who are still there.  Only one.  Maybe it is time to revisit?



#233 txbornviking

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:11 PM

I agree.  Look at how many of those Council Members who are still there.  Only one.  Maybe it is time to revisit?

 

Jungus is the only one remaining, and as of today, I don't think anyone has filed to run against him yet. Though rumor is United Fort Worth is hoping to back a challenger.

 

Burdette spot is now held by Dennis Shingleton

Moncrief spot is now held by Betsy Price

Scarth is now held by Cary Moon

Zimmerman is now held by Brian Byrd

 

Sadly, none of those 4 have shown actual interest in improving public transportation funding as it has come up the past few years.

 

Ann Zadeh, Kelley Allen Gray, Carlos Flores, & Gyna Bivens all seem supportive of efforts, however as far as I can recall, only Zadeh has proposed means to improve funding for Trinity Metro to help deliver improved service etc.



#234 John T Roberts

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 04:38 PM

Txbornviking, in looking at the Council Makeup in that way, we may be worse off than we were in 2010.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.



#235 Austin55

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 05:02 PM

Politics is the the biggest issue in transit in this city.

#236 Jeriat

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:10 PM

Politics is the the biggest issue in transit in this city. 

 

 

Among other things, as usual... 


7fwPZnE.png

 

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#237 Volare

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 09:12 PM

Politics is the the biggest issue in transit in this city.

 

I don't think that is not the same in any city in the US. The unusual thing is the politics in Fort Worth are dominated and controlled by the very few.



#238 Brian Luenser

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Posted 05 February 2019 - 11:54 PM

Will always be grateful that we were smart enough not to fall for the streetcar trap.   Why go back in time more than a century and pay for it with a city strapped for cash and already taxing their residents more than all but a few jurisdictions in Texas.  Add to that a city they would be clogged with wires and tracks and construction of all the above, and they made a wise choice backing away from the whole deal.  TEXrail? Actually meaningful transportation.  A smart choice.  (And goes faster than I can run) 


www.fortworthview.com

#239 Jeriat

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:04 AM

There will be inner-city rail again, at some point. 


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#240 renamerusk

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 12:35 AM

Will always be grateful that we were smart enough not to fall for the streetcar trap.   Why go back in time more than a century...

 

 I am finding it difficult to find a major city without some form of a rail transit system or one being planned for.  Can you tell us, other than Fort Worth, any other city refusing to go back in time?



#241 mmmdan

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 11:49 AM

One thing I really enjoy when travelling to other big cities with rail transit is not having to rent a car.

 

That's one of my issues with TexRail.  Sure, people can fly into the airport and take a train to downtown, but then what?

 

There is something magical about having the primary form of public transit in a city being a streetcar/subway/light rail, and then only needing a bus for the last mile for the few things that are not in walking distance from the train ("the train" is any public transit on rails).



#242 txbornviking

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 02:44 PM

One thing I really enjoy when travelling to other big cities with rail transit is not having to rent a car.

 

That's one of my issues with TexRail.  Sure, people can fly into the airport and take a train to downtown, but then what?

 

There is something magical about having the primary form of public transit in a city being a streetcar/subway/light rail, and then only needing a bus for the last mile for the few things that are not in walking distance from the train ("the train" is any public transit on rails).

 

In defense of the system we do have (and I'm VERY much one to advocate for a big bold shift in our current transit policies) for those who are taking TexRail into town and then staying at a downtown hotel, the stockyards, west 7th, the cultural district, & the near southside can all be reached from downtown with buses that run every 15minutes. People just a) have a reticence to use buses and B) we do an exceptionally poor job of advertising/marketing these options.

 

At the end of the day, the most successful transit system will cater to the needs of residence rather than tourist. But when a transit agency is empowered to focus on the needed connections for residents tourists often benefit as well.



#243 John T Roberts

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 03:41 PM

I agree with you, mmmdan. However I dont mind walking. I have walked from all of those areas to the other parts of the city with no problems.

#244 RD Milhollin

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:40 AM

I'm in DC on business, have been here three days and have not yet traveled in a car. The Transit system here is pretty impressive. 



#245 Jeriat

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 01:22 PM

I'm in DC on business, have been here three days and have not yet traveled in a car. The Transit system here is pretty impressive. 


Makes more sense for that city with the amount of density it has

7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#246 renamerusk

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 03:21 PM

 

I'm in DC on business, have been here three days and have not yet traveled in a car. The Transit system here is pretty impressive. 


Makes more sense for that city with the amount of density it has

 

 It is not always about density; it can be about fluidity within a region -

 

https://www.visitsal...transportation/



#247 Doohickie

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:12 PM

 

I'm in DC on business, have been here three days and have not yet traveled in a car. The Transit system here is pretty impressive. 


Makes more sense for that city with the amount of density it has

 

 

The metro and other rail systems penetrate far out into the sprawl.  For that kind of rail I think there is enough density inside Loop 820.


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#248 Doohickie

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 11:13 PM

I'm in DC on business, have been here three days and have not yet traveled in a car. The Transit system here is pretty impressive. 

 

When I go to DC on business, I sometimes *walk* out of the airport.  There are several Crystal City hotels within a mile walk from the terminal.


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#249 renamerusk

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:55 PM

With 2020 Appropriations now in early preparation,  now is a good time for Fort Worth to say whether it is or whether it is not in favor of a local rail transit system.

 

Here's your refresher with those for and those against and the whys -

 

https://www.fwweekly...12/22/derailed/

 

https://www.citylab....ter-bus/400634/



#250 Volare

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 03:52 PM

At least he still thinks of us occasionally:

 

https://twitter.com/...213314928304128






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