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Fort Worth Transportation Authority (Combine, Rebuild, Delete?)


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#101 djold1

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 07:43 PM

Some thoughts about the preceding comments without multiply quoting ad absurdem:

 

Light rail (Interurbans) & streetcars were  primio propagators of population expansion or what some call sprawl. The first car lines that ran to Mistletoe, or Poly or Rosen Heights or Arlington Heights were done to facilitate the flight from the nasty  smelly, smoky downtown area. When the interurban came in 1902  and then expanded to Cleburne in 1913 they were a realtor's dream. New subdivision's popped up along the rails and the city limits kept stretching out. Did anyone complain about this expansion at the time? 

If, as has been suggested above, the streetcar system would simply take people out of cars in the Central Core, which I presume is about two miles or less from Sundance Square in all directions except east,  how many total cars would be projected to stay at home and how many individual riders spread over the 4 or more legs or the transit system would be served?  Not counting of course those already using the existing bus system.   

How would this localized central core streetcar system help in any way to staunch the influx of cars carrying worker bees from the gritty but highly liveable suburbs?

 

What happens to the hapless central core dweller when their abode is more than two blocks from a streetcar line even though they are part of the "choice" demographic that is so dear to the village transit planner?  

And if you're talking about waiting at a car stop in Texas weather, I suggest that the headway between cars moving in the same direction should be a rock solid 15 minutes or less during the entire service hours. Otherwise, the "choice" will be personal transportation the next time. Now... start taking the total mileage of the streetcar system and compute the total number of cars at 2 million+ each that would be required to give that kind of headway... and presumably twice that headway during rush hour.  

Curious minds... 


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#102 renamerusk

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 06:27 AM

......Curious minds... 

 

Shall I opine -

 

The world that you speak of and that once was is over.  There will not be another "Baby Boom"; the "gritty industrial" era in the USA is long gone; we are an aging population; and technology is advancing at a phenomenal speed, cheap fuel and land is a thing of the past; and some day in the not too distant future I, yes I will likely choose or be force to stop driving not only for my own good, but the good of the public.

 

There was a time when transit worked well for society.  Then the highway and oil lobbies, the real estate and the mall lobby eviscerated the central core of cities all across the USA by dismantling the efficient infrastructure already in place.

 

The aging Baby Boom generation along with subsequent generations of the 90's and  forward are now returning to the central core in greater numbers and that trend is continuing to gain momentum.  It is not as if Fort Worth, like most every other city, can ignore this renewed flight back to its historic core.

 

Planning for the more likely future than citing the abnormal events of the 20th Century is a way to keep Fort Worth vibrant in the 21st Century.



#103 Volare

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 09:46 AM

 

 It is not as if Fort Worth, like most every other city, can ignore this renewed flight back to its historic core.

 

Sure it can, because Fort Worth is a unique special Unicorn!

 

(Did I do sarcasm font right?)



#104 djold1

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 04:43 PM

It might not be too bad for Fort Worth to consider thoughtful uniqueness in its transit plans. There never was historically any great population in the CBD out to a mile or more. People deliberately did not live in the inner city for good reason. So the populating of this area is not a return from flight, but is instead a drastic change in the livability and desirability of this central area.  This is good. And this vitalization seems to be working pretty well with the tools at hand.  

 

However, there is nothing a streetcar running in the central core can do to greatly alleviate the hordes of incoming cars into the core area, not to mention trucks, buses and other vehicles. If this area is a desirable destination, then there will have to be parking garages, parking lots and all the other temporary storage for those who want to spend time and money in the district. Streetcars can handle moving people who are located within two blocks on either side of a car line as well as visitors once they get parked, but nobody seems to have any projectable numbers as to the real benefits. Given the cost of the project and ongoing maintenance, it's important to see some realistic benefit.  In advance.  


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The Fort Worth Gazette blog
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Website: Antique Maps of Texas
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#105 Russ Graham

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 09:42 PM

 

There never was historically any great population in the CBD out to a mile or more.

 

Interesting thought.  I've wonder what the historical population densities of Fort Worth were, say, before Arlington Heights was developed.  Old maps basically just show what is now downtown plus the near southside as "Fort Worth" - with say Berry street as the southern edge, and Trinity Park as the west edge. 

 

Here's one from 1942 for example...  It claims a population of 177k. 

 

http://www.oscarmail...worth_large.jpg

 

That's about 2 miles in all directions from the courthouse. Not sure what part of 177k lived within the boundaries of that map - but say it was only 100k for the sake of argument.

 

I looked up the current population within about 2 miles of the courthouse here: http://www.dfwmaps.c...selectedIndex=2

 

It's now about 25k in roughly the same area where there were (somewhere around) 100k before. 

 

So the point is - there were a lot more people in what is now called the "CBD" (it was just called "Fort Worth" before) in the past, than there are now. 



#106 RD Milhollin

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Posted 20 July 2014 - 11:07 PM

I am pretty sure that the city proper extended out considerably in 1942 from what the map referenced above shows. Try this link to  1940 census map:

 

http://research.arch...ription/5840054

 

Yeah a little hard to read, the incorporated area of the city is shown slightly shaded with no details. The 1942 map looks like the sort that showed city centers in free gasoline station maps when I was growing up, just the main streets and highways, the PO and the courthouse, along with airports. The 1942 map doesn't show Arlington Heights (post WW I), or Northside. I seem to remember seeing that streetcars ran down Hemphill almost to Seminary Drive; the Seminary itself was built in 1910. None of that is on the map either. Just the areas shown on the census map and that I mentioned above conservatively triples the area of the city over the two mile radius area you referenced, so the numbers may be even more skewed that you accounted for. 

 

That said, many residential districts close to downtown were wholly or mostly torn down in favor of commercial buildings over time, so the idea of denser population density for the central city in the past has some serious claim to validity.



#107 Russ Graham

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 06:39 AM

I am pretty sure that the city proper extended out considerably in 1942 from what the map referenced above shows. Try this link to  1940 census map:

 

http://research.arch...ription/5840054

 

Yeah a little hard to read, the incorporated area of the city is shown slightly shaded with no details.

 

And outside of that area it appears to show individual structures as dots on the map. 

 

The point being that the incorporated area was much smaller, and the population inside that area was much more concentrated than it is today.  So the statement that "People deliberately did not live within the inner city for good reason" only applies to post-war Fort Worth - pre-WWII, the opposite was true.



#108 djold1

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 08:37 AM

Thanks for your comments..  Let me clarify a little bit:   We are not talking about population within the city limits, which was for a long time pretty constrained anyway.  We're talking about population in the downtown area.

 

Downtown Fort Worth (Central Business District - CBD) in the 1870-1900 era was small.  From the Courthouse south to the T& P railroad.  East to the railroad tracks.  West  on 7th to the Clear Fork.

 

Initially residences and businesses shared space downtown.  As the town grew business buildings and business grounds displaced the housing.  And In fact because of the smoke, smell, mud and noise, very few people wanted to live downtown anyway.  There were always some, but decreasing as the city grew.

 

By 1920 the official CBD maps of downtown showed a pretty solid coverage of business buildings.  There were no auto parking lots, most people ether took the streetcar or were driven into town.  There were certainly livery stables for the decreasing number of animals that pulled buggies and wagons. 1925 and later CBD maps show even more business building density.  There were a number of auto garages for cars. 

 

I suspect that the density per square mile in the CBD even in the period from 1900-1918 was not large as the business growth forced out homes of all sizes.   There were of course rooming houses and hotels, but again, I don't think they added much to the density.  If you look at the Sanborn maps from 1885 to 1927 you can see what buildings were remaining that were classified as residential. 

 

Probably by the 1940's the residential population of the CBD was very low..

Which leads me to my point that the current  growth of residential places in an enlarged CBD is not a repopulation, it is instead new growth.


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The Fort Worth Gazette blog
The Lost Antique Maps of Fort Worth on CDROM
Website: Antique Maps of Texas
Large format reproductions of original antique and vintage Texas & southwestern maps
 


#109 cberen1

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:17 AM

RE: Unicorns - Fort Worth is not a unicorn, but it is still unique, like everyone else.  There seems to be this underlying notion in the dialogue that there's a single well-travelled roadmap for "successful" public transportation.  Well, there isn't.  Whatever we do will be in many regards unique to Fort Worth and while its success factors and failure factors may overlap those of other cities, it will not be a perfect alignment.  Be the same or be different, I don't care, we gotta pick something and get started.

 

RE: Suburb versus CBD development first.  Personally, I think a spoke without a hub is just a stick.

 

RE: Choice Riders - I don't care if it's egalitarian or not.  I want the city to invest in transportation that encourages development and makes Fort Worth a better place to live.  It would be great if I could leave my car at home most days.  Is there some moral failure in wanting my tax dollars to benefit me more than the poorest and most deserving?  Probably, but I believe everyone in Fort Worth benefits when the Fort Worth economy is humming along, and no amount of easier public transit for the poor and down trodden is going to lift the economy.  I get it, I'm a bad person, I'm getting used to it.



#110 renamerusk

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:24 AM

RE: Unicorns -... Whatever we do will be in many regards unique to Fort Worth and while its success factors and failure factors may overlap those of other cities, it will not be a perfect alignment.  Be the same or be different, I don't care, we gotta pick something and get started....RE: Suburb versus CBD development first.  Personally, I think a spoke without a hub is just a stick......RE: Choice Riders - I don't care if it's egalitarian or not.  I want the city to invest in transportation that encourages development and makes Fort Worth a better place to live..... Probably, but I believe everyone in Fort Worth benefits when the Fort Worth economy is humming along, and no amount of easier public transit for the poor and down trodden is going to lift the economy.  I get it, I'm a bad person, I'm getting used to it.

 

Very good!



#111 McHand

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 10:38 AM

 

 

and no amount of easier public transit for the poor and down trodden is going to lift the economy.  I get it, I'm a bad person, I'm getting used to it.

 

You're not bad.  You're actually right on, in a way.  The poor and downtrodden are already using public transit.  That won't change if we attract "choice" riders, will it?


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#112 Russ Graham

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 01:09 PM

I believe everyone in Fort Worth benefits when the Fort Worth economy is humming along, and no amount of easier public transit for the poor and down trodden is going to lift the economy.

 

Here's a counterargument: right now only about 19% of jobs in the metroplex are accessible by public transit in less than 90 minutes.  If these jobs were more accessible by low-wage workers then businesses would have more options on who they could hire - lowering the cost of doing business - and helping the economy to hum along.



#113 djold1

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Posted 21 July 2014 - 04:04 PM

Even if that idea of having public transit accessible low-wage workers was  valid, there is a huge impenetrable logistical problem involved.  

 

Low wage workers are located in areas of any density already have transit available although it may not go to every point in Tarrant County.  To collect the other workers of any wage level using public transit would mean that there would need to be a grid with a bus stop or car stop no further than two or three walking blocks away from each one. That transit grid would need to pass close to every possible business place in the county that would offer a job to anyone.  Can you imagine the complexity of such a system, the number of buses it would take and the number of drivers for each one?  

 

With the employment situation the way it is, already overloaded with applications for minimum wage jobs and with employers able to pick and choose exactly whom they want, It's hard to see how business at that level could hum along any better.


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#114 mmmdan

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 06:38 AM

If we look at the how things are currently organized, there is no rhyme or reason because everything is auto centric.  Let's say we do finally get a system on rails that connects all the major neighborhoods.  Over time, a lot of businesses are either going to open or relocate close to the rails.  The desire will be there because the rails won't be moving any time soon.  This will put more businesses in proximity to transit.

 

It's a fool's errand to try and have rail transit connect with all the auto-centric development as it currently exists.

 

Again, I have to ask if you've ever been to a city with a long standing rail based transit system.  The streets that the transit run down are filled with commercial properties (convenience stores, retail, restaurants, hotels, etc.), and then you also have the occasional street that intersects the main street that also is filled with commercial.  Right behind that is usually filled with residential.

 

This creates a situation where all of the residential properties behind the commercial are walkable to just about everything you need, or you can just hop on the train and go to another area that has what you are looking for.  The land closest to the line is the most desirable and it decreases the further away you get. 

 

People will walk more than 1 or 2 blocks to catch the train.  Even in the Texas heat.  I've lived several places and summer is miserable everywhere.  Whether it's 100+ and dry or 90 degrees with 85% humidity it's all horrible, just a different kind of horrible.



#115 cberen1

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Posted 22 July 2014 - 08:40 AM

I believe mmmdan is essentially correct that development follows urban rail transit and that it's tough to try to make urban rail transit fit an existing suburban auto centric environment.  In my mind, it's critical to get the rail foundation laid quickly because every year that goes by means a bunch more develoments that are strictly car accessible rather than public transit accessible.



#116 Jeriat

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 07:41 PM

Article on TexRail Agreement: http://www.star-tele...l#storylink=cpy


 

 

Hope... Progress... Thoughts? 


Edited by AndyN, 25 July 2014 - 11:00 AM.
Violation of Forum Quoting Policy

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#117 JBB

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Posted 25 July 2014 - 08:30 AM

Lots of thoughts after that article was posted to the TEX Rail thread earlier in the week: http://www.fortworth...ic=4787&p=86087

#118 Doohickie

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 02:18 PM

I went to Java With Jungus this morning with Councilman Jordan. When talking about rail, he said that a merger between The T and DART is inevitable, and if Fort Worth waits until then to build a passenger rail network, we'll be fighting for table scraps. The only way to avoid it, he said, is to build out a reasonable rail network prior to the eventual merger. I personally found that statement to be rather thrilling, coming from Jordan.
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#119 renamerusk

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:19 PM

...this morning with Councilman Jordan. When talking about rail, he said that a merger between The T and DART is inevitable....The only way to avoid it, he said, is to build out a reasonable rail network prior to the eventual merger...

 

I am not surprise Jordan Jungus believes that way.  He is an ardent proponent of a commuter rail network.

 

I do believe that there will be a considerable backlash mounted against a DART-FWTA merger from constituents in Fort Worth, even among some constituents in DART service area.  Perhaps he knows of a "clamoring" among the Fort Worth public to merge with DART that is not immediately evident to some of us.  

 

I do believe that there is a lot at stake with passenger/commuter rail and that people are counting on making lots of money from TOD investments and property sales; perhaps he is among them.

 

The future of the FWTA is actually on the line as the TexRail projects chugs along.  If this projects collapses, then FWTA will inevitably be forced to refocus upon a modern bus system and different rail projects that are tailored more to the central core than to the suburbs.



#120 JBB

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:38 PM

I have a shiny silver dollar that says he thinks that finishing the Tex Rail line to the airport and building "a reasonable rail network" are the same thing.

#121 Dylan

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:22 PM

Y'all act like TEX Rail is not a reasonable rail line. :wacko: Look at all the areas it would serve at full build out.

 

The FTA was supposed to announce a record of decision this month, but they didn't.

 

I hope "no news" doesn't translate to "bad" news.


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#122 JBB

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 09:33 PM

Yes, it is a very reasonable rail line, but it is not a reasonable rail network.  My point was that I doubt the councilman sees the distinction.



#123 Fort Worthology

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Posted 02 September 2014 - 08:28 AM

Yes, it is a very reasonable rail line, but it is not a reasonable rail network.  My point was that I doubt the councilman sees the distinction.

 

Also, a "reasonable rail network" ought to include, you know, central-city rail transit to link the various neighborhoods and districts together (not just a few commuter trains to bring people in and out of downtown), something Jordan helped kill.  You are absolutely right - I feel that "a reasonable rail network" to him is just X number of commuter trains, where X is a small number.


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#124 McHand

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 07:55 PM

 

Yes, it is a very reasonable rail line, but it is not a reasonable rail network.  My point was that I doubt the councilman sees the distinction.

 

Also, a "reasonable rail network" ought to include, you know, central-city rail transit to link the various neighborhoods and districts together (not just a few commuter trains to bring people in and out of downtown), something Jordan helped kill.  You are absolutely right - I feel that "a reasonable rail network" to him is just X number of commuter trains, where X is a small number.

 

 

Could the buses serve this purpose?


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#125 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 08:55 AM

Looks like another shakeup at The T. The longtime executive VP and the general counsel have resigned from the executive board. 

 

http://www.star-tele...-officials.html

 

I would be interested in hearing these individuals' take on the idea of combining the Fort Worth Transportation Authority with DART.



#126 Doohickie

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 11:11 AM

Could the buses serve this purpose?


In my opinion, no. Trains operate operate at speeds roughly the same as automobiles (at times faster). Buses are much slower than cars. If my only choice was a bus, it would suffice, but it's always the transit of last resort. It shouldn't take more than an hour for a bus to get from the ITC downtown to the Walmart by my house (Sycamore School & McCart), but it does. It's about 25-30 minutes in a car. When taking wait time into account, it can take for than 3 times to take a bus as drive. If you have rail that doesn't have to stop for traffic you can get around town pretty quickly. Buses are slow to begin with but are further slowed by traffic.
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#127 renamerusk

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 01:55 PM

Looks like another shakeup at The T. The longtime executive VP and the general counsel have resigned from the executive board. .....I would be interested in hearing these individuals' take on the idea of combining the Fort Worth Transportation Authority with DART.

 

Interesting that you would like to hear from those individuals' with a take on combining FWTA with DART.   As for myself, I have been sitting on this very recent information regarding the problems that DART is having with its own projects.  You see, when you make TOD Light Rail (Orange Line to DFW Airport) your highest priority, other priorities fall to the wayside.( bus, streetcar, etc)

 

Here in this case, it seems that Mr. Johnson went out not quietly, but went out with a note of sarcasm-

 

"It was a good 24 years,” Johnson, one of the T’s longest-serving employees, told the Star-Telegram. “I wish everyone at the T good luck in the future. Good luck with TEX Rail.”

 

 

So for my own take and  for the foreseeable future, I don't see any compelling advantage for FWTA to merge with DART.

 

http://www.wfaa.com/...liff streetcar/



#128 Volare

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 04:51 PM

More info on the bungling going on in Dallas. Not sure it's DARTs problem however:

 

http://dallasmorning...-projects.html/



#129 JBB

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 08:23 PM

Yeah, I don't think DART is involved in the Oak Cliff streetcar.



#130 renamerusk

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Posted 17 September 2014 - 09:52 PM

Yeah, I don't think DART is involved in the Oak Cliff streetcar.

 

I think so.

 

http://www.dart.org/...asstreetcar.asp



#131 JBB

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 01:28 AM

I stand corrected. I assume the city is paying for it and managing the construction before turning the operation over to DART. Nothing I've read about the delays, including the above linked pieces, mentions a word about DART.

#132 renamerusk

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Posted 18 September 2014 - 12:25 PM

I stand corrected.

 

You're good...just fact checking on my part. :smwink:



#133 Jeriat

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 06:00 PM

So... here's the year. 2018. 

Should we set it in stone or no? 

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=7L8B7OWe2_8


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#134 JBB

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 09:19 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't write that down in your day planner in anything other than pencil.



#135 Austin55

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 10:30 PM

Its a well done video at least.



#136 JBB

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Posted 24 September 2014 - 11:02 PM

If they put that kind of effort into, you know, well done means of transit, I'll be impressed.

#137 Dylan

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Posted 25 September 2014 - 07:22 PM

They've put a ton of effort into TEX Rail, they just can't afford to build it.

 

http://www.texrail.c...tStatement.aspx


-Dylan


#138 RD Milhollin

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:32 AM

Independent audit praised The T:

 

http://www.star-tele...es-transit.html



#139 RD Milhollin

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 11:08 AM

Build Your Own Transit System: T Master Plan interactive exercise allows citizens to suggest improvements that would make the system more usable, for YOU.

 

http://buildyoursystem.tmasterplan.org



#140 Jeriat

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Posted 01 October 2015 - 05:42 PM

Build Your Own Transit System: T Master Plan interactive exercise allows citizens to suggest improvements that would make the system more usable, for YOU.

 

http://buildyoursystem.tmasterplan.org

 

Did that a couple times... I think I pulled out the best system possible. 


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg





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