31 replies to this topic

[tinman1412]

Hi Everyone,

I have been searching for a plcce to live in Ft. Worth all last week. Thank you for all your responses in my other posting. I have seen several apartments (The Depot, Firestone, Amli). They all go for around $1000 per month for a small 1 bedroom (about 700 sq/ft). I'm somewhat dissapointed, but I guess that is the price you pay to live downtown. I then found some condos for sale at The Tower. There are several 900 sq/ft condos listed for around $225K. Do you guys think condos at the Tower is a good investment right now?. Are there potential for the property value to up within the next 5 years?. Please advise b/c I'm not familiar with Ft. Worth nor have much experience in the real estate business. I'm tempted to make an offer for one of the condos at The Tower but need to get advice from people who are better informed then me. Thanks in advance

[cberen1]

There are a lot of condos on or coming on the market in the next 24 months. After that there isn't a lot on the horizon. Odds are you won't see material appreciation in the next couple of years, but at the end of a five year span you should some normal level of return.

Don't go into it looking for a homerun kind of an investment. Real estate in general has historically been a recession hedge of sorts. Fairly stable, low correlation to the stock market. It's a place to put money where the average joe can get somewhat above a risk-free rate of return, but not necessarily big margins. There is also the advantage of substantial leverage in the investment. Don't get me wrong, people have made huge money in real estate speculation, but others have lost piles too. If you're in the grand a month category, you aren't risking a whole lot besides lifestyle cramps. Things have been a little more volitile lately, and condos have generally been more volitile than single family dwellings. With a short horizon, your biggest risk is not being able to cover the agent's commission at sale and not being able to move the property quicklyl if you have to relocate.

If paying $1,850 + $300 HOA doesn't cramp your style, do it. I wouldn't look at it as an investment decision if I were you.

If your investment horizon is only 5 years, you'd be better off putting the extra $1,150 into almost any investment. Buying, you will pay a lot of taxes and build almost no equity. The additional taxes you pay, along with the HOA dues pretty much offset the income tax break and leverage advantage of the mortgage. Investing you'd wind up with roughly $80K (@6%) after five. Buying you'd probably wind up with something less, maybe $30 - 50K net gain after you pay the 6% sales comission. Of course you could hit a home run too. You never know. I doubt you would lose any material money anyway.

[bhudson]

Welcome to the forum.

This has been discussed a time or two, and cberen1 is right on. Here's a little more fleshed out example using simple round numbers, though they'll be pretty close to reality. Last I heard at the tower HOA was $.45/ft/mo. For your example, let's say you finance $200,000 @ 6% on the ~900sqft unit. Property taxes ~$5000/yr. HOA dues ~$400. You'll pay ~$12000 in interest in the first year, worth about $3000 (250/mo) to you when deducted. But your benefit is only the amount that exceeds the standard deduction. For a single person, the net benefit of the interest deduction is only maybe $150/mo.

1200 principle/int.
400 HOA
420 taxes
-150 interest deduction benefit

So you're looking at $1900+ month very approximately, I've heard actual examples which are considerably higher. For example I think it is not common to put down 10% and get a conv 30yr fixed mortgage. My example also requires you to come up with $25000-27000 at closing. I don't get the impression that you are making a permanent move to FW. I'd recommend that you rent and get a better feel for FW and downtown living before making a hasty purchase that could end up hosing you.

Put another way: If you are willing to pay nearly 2000/mo (for what is arguably no better than a break even proposition in the short term), why not rent a unit for 1600/mo to see if you even like it?

[UncaMikey]

I agree with what the others have said. You may want to consider renting there for a while, see if you like it. It's much cheaper to rent there than to buy, which says quite a bit. My impression is that it's a buyer's market there now, so there's no rush.

One friend who lived there liked it but got tired of the long walk from parking (drive up several floors to upper level secure garage, take elevator down, walk through underground passage under the street, then up the building elevator) esp with groceries and packages etc.

If you buy there, don't plan on making much money off the deal.

[PLS]

let me preface by saying that i do not believe a personal residence should be considered to be part of one's investment portfolio. with that out of the way, i think the returns on a condo in dtfw will be pretty minimal over the short term. as you said, there are several on the market now. as others have said, there are plenty of other projects on the ground or soon to be available. this should keep pricing pretty flat as the units are absorbed. long term, i'm pretty bullish on dfw and fort worth in particular, so i would bet on the area in general over a longer time frame. (if you look at population migration statistics and projections, texas and dfw are in line for prolonged growth over the next 20-30 years.) with all the variables that can impact property values, it's tough to say how this will impact condos directly, and one project specifically, but i think you can read between the lines.

if there are several on the market that are reasonably similar, my guess is someone is more desperate/willing to sell than the others. if you can swing the payments mentioned in previous posts, i would submit low-ball offers on several properties and see what kind of responses you get. shave 20% off the asking price - if any of these sellers is willing to negotiate it should be pretty obvious. i suggest at least talking with a realtor, there may be significant negotiating room in the dtfw market.

[safly]

And as TRUMP would have it, negotiate "face to face".

Who knows???

Wow, I'm startin to see some FWF'ers come around on this DTFW living logic. Nice.

And if takin the bus is no problem for you, I would suggest Monticello area (west of DTFW) for the meantime or a 2/2 at $1200-$1600/month can get you in a nice rental setup near the S end of DTFW (near the Ryan's Place, Berkeley, Mistletoe Triangle). A short bus (npi) trip to DTFW.

[David Love]

Most of the advice I’ve seen here is pretty close and I think I’ve mentioned on the rental versions of this genre to try out your areas of interest by visiting them during different times of day and renting is always a good choice for testing out a neighborhood and makes it much easier to walk around other areas of interest downtown whenever you want. In a high rise with windows, every floor is a neighborhood and every window exposure will have its own seasonal environment so determining the quirks takes on a whole new level of difficulty.

As far as investing in real estate, I read somewhere, that the safest real estate investment was the one you lived in, mainly due to primary residence type benefits. When someone tells me “this is a great investment” I wonder why they’re telling me… You buy a place because you want to live there, you weigh your options, needs and financial situation and come up with something that works for you… you’re going to need some lists.

For your initial $1000 per month range there are a lot of options downtown to pick from, the rent only places are going to be less flexible, some, like The Kress start well above that if I’m not mistaken, but places with units for sale will have lots of opportunities for renters and each will depend on the owner of that unit so blanket statements won’t cover your options, like Safly said, face to face works… or face to face with the owners Realtor, whatever the case.

[tinman1412]

Thank you all for the advice. I started looking at nearby apartments in downtown and found a place called "Hillside" apartments. The rent is under $1000 a month for a 1 bedroom. I'm going with this for now to get a feel of living in downtown and go from there. I guess I was tempted at all the amenitities and how nice the condos at the Tower looked, but $2500 month is definitely not worth it at this time

[PDowntown]

I WOULD NOT buy at the Tower. It just seems to me that there are way too many trust fund babies in there that party a little too hard to where i would want to have an investment.

I hear plenty of stories about drunks sleeping in hallways, people pissing in elevators, and call girls comming in and out.

However, i could be wrong.

I am looking forward to the Omni or the City Place but, they might end up being the same way.

[David Love]

I WOULD NOT buy at the Tower. It just seems to me that there are way too many trust fund babies in there that party a little too hard to where i would want to have an investment.

I hear plenty of stories about drunks sleeping in hallways, people pissing in elevators, and call girls comming in and out.

However, i could be wrong.

I am looking forward to the Omni or the City Place but, they might end up being the same way.

Trust fund babies... maybe, trust fund adults... probably.

I've lived here for a while and have never heard of anyone sleeping in a hallway, might be a bit tough with security guards making rounds, plus you have to have access to even get to a hallway which would mean they'd have to have a key as well. Were they wearing PJs?... We could have some sleepwalkers and if that's the case the hallway would be the preferred exit for them to use when they're out and about.

There were a few issues with the public elevators in the parking garage a year or so back, but with added security, DVR type stuff I believe, that's been resolved, I think most of that was caused by some unhappy downtown patrons when they realized some of the free parking was no longer free, most of it still is though.

I'm sure the formal fashion critique of downtown urbanite’s choice of attire will raise some chuckles at our next get together…

[redhead]

Hillside's a good starter place---my neice has been there for a few years. The one bedroom spaces are quite small, however, and I'm not sure I would consider it a "downtown" experience. The police do NOT recommend making the walk under the bridge, at least not for her as a single (very attractive) female. And 30% of the units, I think, is essentially subsidized housing. The good thing is it does provide housing for a lot of the service sector folks who otherwise would have to drive places like Burleson. If you are downtown in the wee hours of the morning, you can see cooks and busboys making the pedestrian trek towards Hillside.

[stkromain]

While we are talking about rent - what do ya'll think a good estimate is/ sq. foot for downtown. In particular I am at the T&P terminal 2/2 furnished. I may have to put my place up soon and this number has been a puzzle to me.

I think The Towers have seen their big gains for a while - haven't they close to doubled since opening? The noise coming up the glass from the street is terrible. Didn't that building take on some structural damage from the Tornado - why it became condos from office space. Fantastic amenities, but I wasn't thoroughly impressed.

[David Love]

While we are talking about rent - what do ya'll think a good estimate is/ sq. foot for downtown. In particular I am at the T&P terminal 2/2 furnished. I may have to put my place up soon and this number has been a puzzle to me.

I think The Towers have seen their big gains for a while - haven't they close to doubled since opening? The noise coming up the glass from the street is terrible. Didn't that building take on some structural damage from the Tornado - why it became condos from office space. Fantastic amenities, but I wasn't thoroughly impressed.

Structurally no, but it did need some screen doors...

The reason it faired better, from what I'm told, was due to it being intact, where our recent imploded neighbor was torqued seven degrees due to it's guts, elevators, etc, being cannibalized by the Miami developer that purchased it then bailed.

Rent per square foot, varies by building, floor, unit and owner.

Noise is better than it once was, but why would you live downtown if city noise bothered you, to be honest, the majority of the noise I hear is from internal building workings, water, elevators, etc... which I don't really notice anymore, it's the random stuff you're not use to that can be a bit annoying.

[Fort Worthology]

Noise downtown has never been an issue for me, ever - and I live even closer to the street than David. First the fourth floor in the Electric Building, now the third floor in the Sanger Building. It's downtown. In my experience, 99% of the noise you get used to very quickly, and it just becomes background noise that you don't even notice. The other 1% would be the Harley riders, kids in Civics with giant subs, and guys in giant diesel pickups with loud pipes. They are a minor, occasional irritant.

Honestly, by the time I'm asleep in my bedroom, raised up at the back of the unit, with a fan going, I hear virtually nothing outside.

[dustin]

Those noises are found anywhere. I live out by Carter Riverside High School and in this nice "quiet" neighborhood, there are constant rumblings from kids with 2 "12s in their trunk or some guy with his custom chopper. Funny thing is, we lived in arlington heights (a few blocks off of Camp Bowie) before this, and the noise was even worse there (prolly cause kids could afford more subwoofers and their dads could afford noisier harleys)..

I personally love the sounds of neighborhoods. It makes me feel like I live in a community. Anyways all i am saying is that the downtown noise probably isnt much worse than some neighborhoods, just more consistent.

[cberen1]

I personally love the sounds of neighborhoods. It makes me feel like I live in a community. Anyways all i am saying is that the downtown noise probably isnt much worse than some neighborhoods, just more consistent.

I'll echo that. I live in University West and the noise there isn't much different from what I hear downtown during the day. Most of it goes un-noticed, except the Harleys. I also have trains to deal with, but usually only in the morning.

[Holden]

there are constant rumblings from kids with 2 "12s in their trunk or some guy with his custom chopper

Amen to that! Riverside - represent!

[Keller Pirate]

There was a story in the WSJ today about condo woes. The Tower got a small mention,

"The deteriorating economy isn't helping. "When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, the last thing anyone wants to buy is a condo," says Cathy Schlegel, a mortgage-loan broker in Fort Worth, Texas, whose condo in a high-rise called The Tower sat on the market for 14 months before she finally sold it at a loss in February."

Here is the rest of the story; http://online.wsj.co...p_us_whats_news

[Brian Luenser]

There was a story in the WSJ today about condo woes. The Tower got a small mention,

"The deteriorating economy isn't helping. "When the world goes to hell in a handbasket, the last thing anyone wants to buy is a condo," says Cathy Schlegel, a mortgage-loan broker in Fort Worth, Texas, whose condo in a high-rise called The Tower sat on the market for 14 months before she finally sold it at a loss in February."

Here is the rest of the story; http://online.wsj.co...p_us_whats_news

Here is the Real "Rest of the story"

Her condo in the Tower was maybe the least desirable condo in the Tower. It was one of the Two model homes and was finished before major construction got underway. Had thousands of people parading through it (including my wife and me, 3 times.) It had what we thought was horrible decorating done by the developers construction people. My wife said it looked like Burt Reynolds decorated it in 1970. It is the only condo that didn't have stainless steel appliances. A dog in all. That she paid too much for. (I guess all that didn't bother her.) Had I bought it, I would have gutted it. The surprising thing is that it ever sold.

Sales at the Tower are great in 08. A Realtor told me at the March 4th Primary Elections that she sold 12 units in all of 2007 and has sold 10 so far at March 4th. There are 292 condos in the Tower.

[David Love]

I think there was a lot of speculation at the beginning, I remember seeing Tony Landrum on one of local channels saying that he thought the 100% price appreciation so quickly was a bit much and that he thought they'd settle down to 50% over the original sales price sometime soon, which is pretty much what they did. Now with all the new options on the market plus the mortgage issues I'm amazed Fort Worth's overall market is faring as well as it is, I don't have the time or patience to develop the macro vision that Monee has here locally but from what I hear in the elevators owners are relatively happy and renters wish the for sale prices would come down.

As for downtown sounds, it's a lot like the view, the higher up you are the more you can take in, sometimes I leave the windows open to just be a part of what's going on, close the windows and balcony doors and I don't hear much of anything.

The one thing I was not prepared for and I doubt I would have believed it if someone had tried to explain it, but I had noticed it in some movies, what I thought was just poor sound editing was actually the way some things sound when you're high up with no interference of the source, thunder was the first one, when you can see the entire storm cell with lightning and rain below and blue skys above, puts a whole new perspective on things.

[Keller Pirate]

I was really looking for comments on the premise of the article of the overall condo glut and if forumers thought any of the comments applied to Ft Worth.

It is my fault for attaching it to this topic. I wasn't looking for Tower specific comments, but more so the overall market. This was the first thing that poped up when I was looking for a topic to stick it in. As I know the Tower is more or less sold out as far as the developer is concerned and this article is talking about developer and bank exposure.

The Neil P has had some problems as we know, how are other projects doing, such as Montgomery Place and the T&P Lofts? Villa DeLeon and the Omni seem to be the upper end right now and from comments here, I perceive them to be selling slowly.

Do you think these statements from the article will apply to Ft Worth?

"The condominium market is about to get worse as many cities brace for a flood of new supply this year -- the result of construction started at the height of the housing boom."

"The deluge means bad news for developers and potentially lower prices, including in cities such as Atlanta and Dallas that have avoided the worst of the housing bust. If defaults and foreclosures rise, lenders will feel the pain too."

"These developers had millions of dollars tied up and they had them financed so they just moved forward," says J. Ronald Terwilliger, chief executive of Trammell Crow Residential, which builds many rental apartment buildings and also a few condos. "What they hope is that by the time the project is finished the market comes back."

Moderators, feel free to move this to a more appropriate thread topic.

[Fort Worthology]

The Neil P has had some problems as we know, how are other projects doing, such as Montgomery Place and the T&P Lofts? Villa DeLeon and the Omni seem to be the upper end right now and from comments here, I perceive them to be selling slowly.

The Omni was about 25% sold, by my understanding, as of November/December. Not sure about VDL.

The T&P sold very quickly. The historic building is virtually full up. Sales at the newer building are a bit slower but seem to have picked up from what I can tell. The T&P seems to have been a big success.

Montgomery Plaza is 70+% presold.

[David Love]

Guess you could start a topic on Condos specifically and pose those questions there.

The quote from your article: "The condominium market is about to get worse as many cities brace for a flood of new supply this year -- the result of construction started at the height of the housing boom."

I think it's a safe no brainer kind of statement, a bit after the fact if you ask me, about failing real estate markets nation wide. Why make a statement specifically about condos when you could choose any other segment? I suspect it might be that most condo type developments come in large single blocks of units, like a converted high rise or a new construction high rise, once you're committed you're in it for the long haul, where town homes or single family developments can be done in stages, if the market takes a dive you can post pone, change or cancel and limit your exposure.

I think the Fort Worth market is incredibly tough for "experts" to define let alone predict.

I suspect that's why some developments move and some don't and why some units within certain developments move fast yet some just sit. Take the Neil P. for instance, most units appear to be targeted on the high end and specifically to high end empty nester's, yet one of the major assets of that building is that it's right next to the train station, I'll bet they never even considered what neighborhoods were on the other stops of the TRE. Had they targeted young environmentally conscious urban professional types just starting out or on a budget I doubt they'd be in the spot they're in now. I wonder if that's an acronym yet, YECUPs?

The best advice I could give is to read all those books on how to buy a condo and apply what you learn to find a place that fits your needs. Most of the conversations I have about the Tower with friends and acquaintances eventually will contain the sentence "I wish I had bought when you did back at the beginning." The thing is, I didn't buy because I thought I was at the beginning of a new trend or I thought it was a great investment, I bought it because it was close to what I wanted and exactly where I wanted it to be. Do your research so when you find something that fits your needs you'll know a good buy when you see it.

[David Love]

The Omni was about 25% sold, by my understanding, as of November/December. Not sure about VDL

Anyone know what's the square foot ranges at the Omni are currently, guess I should say price per square foot?

[Fort Worthology]

Take the Neil P. for instance, most units appear to be targeted on the high end and specifically to high end empty nester's, yet one of the major assets of that building is that it's right next to the train station, I'll bet they never even considered what neighborhoods were on the other stops of the TRE. Had they targeted young environmentally conscious urban professional types just starting out or on a budget I doubt they'd be in the spot they're in now. I wonder if that's an acronym yet, YECUPs?

David, you sure you're thinking of the Neil P.? It's not right next to any station.

[David Love]

Take the Neil P. for instance, most units appear to be targeted on the high end and specifically to high end empty nester's, yet one of the major assets of that building is that it's right next to the train station, I'll bet they never even considered what neighborhoods were on the other stops of the TRE. Had they targeted young environmentally conscious urban professional types just starting out or on a budget I doubt they'd be in the spot they're in now. I wonder if that's an acronym yet, YECUPs?

David, you sure you're thinking of the Neil P.? It's not right next to any station.

I didn't mean literally, guess I should have been more specific with the T&P fitting that definition to a T. When I first started scouting locations down town I thought that part of town would be perfect due to the station at 9th and Jones, Neil P is on 7th so any afternoon summer treks from the station would be shaded for the most part, it's a bit closer than locations around Sundance. I took the location as an ideal spot for entrepreneurial studios, downtown professionals that like being close to the downtown action but not actually in it and it could have been an entry level option for those that work downtown in service industries or even those attending school in or near downtown since there are some executive master level courses next to the station I'd think corporate units would be a good fit too.

[Fort Worthology]

Do you mean Le Bijou? The Neil P. is on the west-center part of downtown over at 7th & Lamar by Burnett Park. Le Bijou is at 7th & Jones near the ITC.

Le Bijou, by the way, last I was told had three sold and two more reserved.

[David Love]

Do you mean Le Bijou? The Neil P. is on the west-center part of downtown over at 7th & Lamar by Burnett Park. Le Bijou is at 7th & Jones near the ITC.

Le Bijou, by the way, last I was told had three sold and two more reserved.

Nope, Neil P., I'll admit it's only a couple blocks closer than the Tower, less if you could go line of sight, but it's a direct shot, if you count the blocks it looks like a lot but they're really pretty short blocks, the walk is really fast if you don't have an issue with cross walks, 5 to 8 minutes.

Back when I was checking out walk times I think it was rumored that there might be a small market in between the two.

[johnfwd]

This FWBP article by Marice Richter is a report on the condominium market in downtown Fort Worth.  The article mentions downtown's first major condominium project, the restored former Bank One Building now known as The Tower.  It's a good read.

 

One point is made in the article that downtown would be better suited for small-scale condo projects rather than of the skyscraper variety.  Maybe so, but where is the "infill" in our downtown that the quoted expert states would be a good location for a small scale project?  If he means a surface parking lot, I would hope it would be a skyscraper and not a three-story building.  Downtown has too many three-to-six story buildings.

 

Note that the planned 32-story luxury apartment tower is only apartments, not condominiums.

 

http://www.fortworth...9ecbc51ced.html

[Tex]

Is anyone on the forum here intimately familiar with the overall building condition at the tower? The elevators, cooling/heating equipment (building owned, not individual units), electrical infrastructure, communication wiring, etc?

[JBB]

You might try messaging Brian Luenser on here or on Facebook. Hes lived in multiple units since the building opened and I think hes said hes active in the HOA. He doesnt post here real often so you might have better luck contacting him directly.

[Tex]

Will do. Thanks! 

 

You might try messaging Brian Luenser on here or on Facebook. Hes lived in multiple units since the building opened and I think hes said hes active in the HOA. He doesnt post here real often so you might have better luck contacting him directly.