56 replies to this topic

[salvag]

From today's ST:

Developer buys downtown land

Fort Worth architect and real estate developer Ken Schaumburg recently bought a second downtown city block for a residential development, perhaps for an extension of his Le Bijou town house development or a high-rise tower.

The block is bounded by Seventh, Eighth, Calhoun and Jones streets. He will determine a development plan in the next few months, he said.

Schaumburg bought the property from TXU Electric Delivery, which parks its service trucks there.

The site is a block south and west of Le Bijou, a 14-unit luxury town house development. Seven units have been sold, and construction should begin within the next couple of weeks, he said.

Schaumburg said he also may build a 40- to 50-story residential high-rise. One option would be to devote 300,000 square feet on the lower floors to office space, with about 120 condos above. Or the building could be entirely condominiums.

Joe Thompson, senior vice president at TXU Electric Delivery, said the company deemed the lot surplus. It will move its trucks to a lot farther north.

[JBB]

So, is his project close to the river still in the works?

[WTx]

Cool, I just wish an official ok to one of the many rumored projects would come about???

[JBB]

What projects are being held up by an "official ok"?

[WTx]

1. CC Hotel which I am sure is a done deal but final details are still outstanding.

2. This Ken S. project along with the possible one along the river.

3. XTO's future plans weather it be a 50 or 20 storey building?

4. The rumored Landrum project next to The Tower.

[JBB]

Sorry, I thought you were implying that there were projects being held up by some type of city approval. Carry on.

[lobster]

I hear it's going to be towers in the shape of a fork and spoon, crisscrossing at about the 29th floor simulating large salad tongs, while acting as a concourse bridge.. pool will be in the shape of a pile of croutons!

[safly]

I hear it's going to be towers in the shape of a fork and spoon, crisscrossing at about the 29th floor simulating large salad tongs, while acting as a concourse bridge.. pool will be in the shape of a pile of croutons!

Lobby walls wil be painted "Watergate Salad" green.

Valet parking rooftop will mimick a trendy Chipotle pepper, and the building will be named, "The Spice, on the Waterfront". All the employees will have deep aqua blue eyes (real or not) and will gladly chase out landworms for you and your guests with sonic probes.

[AdamB]

Color me pessimistic!

[Willy1]

SAfly... is this the same "rumored" residential building you were referring to, or were you talking about yet another building? If it's different than the one you were talking to, then we're looking at potentially 3 new buildings all over 40 stories... That would be - in the words of Napoleon Dynamite - SWEET!

Everyone keep your fingers crossed.

I haven't heard about the Landrum project next to the Tower - how tall is it supposed to be? Does anyone have a complete list of the "rumored" buildings that are being considered/proposed along with the buildings that have already been approved but haven't broken ground yet? Hypothetical... Let's say all of them were to get greenlighted... how many buildings are we looking at and how tall (stories/heights) are they potentially going to be? It's just hard to keep track of them when there are so many rumors floating around...

It sounds like if everything were to get a go-ahead then we'd be looking at a totally different skyline.

[safly]

These days I don't know anymore.
Makes no difference, Ken will do what he wants to and try to impress all of humanity doing it. Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?

Rumors are rumors so dah dah dah dah......

[John T Roberts]

Willy, it is hard to keep track of all of the rumors and projects that are merely "ideas". It would be interesting if someone had the time to try to sort it all out. I think that there is only one 50 story residential project being explored. I'm also not real sure that it will be built. Schaumburg is also looking at a 26 +/- story residential project between Pier 1 and RadioShack.

The Lofts across from The Tower are supposed to be 6-8 stories tall.

[tcole]

AdamB:

Color me pessimistic!

agreed.

[vjackson]

This is something that bugs me about FW. Why leak info to the press if you have not decided what you are going to do. I'm already so tired of the posts regarding the XTO rumored building. And now this. It will only dissappoint everyone if two 20 story buildings are built instead of the 50 story buildings that may or may not happen. I wish these developers would put up or shut up!!!!!

[mosteijn]

It will only dissappoint everyone if two 20 story buildings are built instead of the 50 story buildings that may or may not happen.

Actually...I won't be "dissappointed" about XTO because I'm not expecting them to build the 50 story building. That's fine though, at least all those historic buildings will remain in use. And honestly, I hope Schaumburg DOESN'T build something 50 stories tall. I'm sorry but I find his designs too out of the ordinary to adapt to something on that large a scale.

I will give the man credit though, he's like the only person in this town who's even willing to consider a high rise residential building. Why is no one else following his initiative?

[safly]

This is something that bugs me about FW.  Why leak info to the press if you have not decided what you are going to do.  I'm already so tired of the posts regarding the XTO rumored building.  And now this.  It will only dissappoint everyone if two 20 story buildings are built instead of the 50 story buildings that may or may not happen.  I wish these developers would put up or shut up!!!!!

My thoughts EXACTLY, Victoria Jackson?

Ego's have to be stroked and the press needs a 5 sentence expose on the man. The "story" was probably out just to get a kick out of us forumers considering talking about it. Developers...Press... they go hand in hand over here.

Yes Johnny, he does take on projects with a certian flaire. I hope he at least builds something with more than 12 units this time.

Ken, if your reading this. It's OK to create residential "complexes", you won't get laughed at. Promise.

[lobster]

Ken, if your reading this. It's OK to create residential "complexes", you won't get laughed at. Promise.

we'll know he's reading this if all of a sudden we see an enormous upright stapler and 300 ft tall binder clip rise behind the Pier 1 bldg...

("The Office Supplies at Clear Fork" incase you were waiting for the title..)

[safly]

"Have yall seen my red stapler? I can't seem to find my red stapler. Last year I did not get a piece of cake at my party. That looks like some real nice cake there."

[hooked]

This is something that bugs me about FW.  Why leak info to the press if you have not decided what you are going to do.  I'm already so tired of the posts regarding the XTO rumored building.  And now this.  It will only dissappoint everyone if two 20 story buildings are built instead of the 50 story buildings that may or may not happen.  I wish these developers would put up or shut up!!!!!

Not exactly a "leak to the press," but here's another example, from today's StarTelegram:

35-acre urban village planned

By Anna M. Tinsley

Star-Telegram Staff Writer

FORT WORTH - North-side developers are proposing a $500 million complex of town houses, offices, stores and parks to link LaGrave Field with the future home of Tarrant County College along the Trinity River.

Dubbed Cats' Island, the urban village is proposed for 35 acres of vacant city-owned land that could also include a museum featuring former Fort Worth Cats player and manager Bobby Bragan's sports memorabilia.

"We've been waiting for the right time and the right way to do this," said Carl Bell, the owner of the minor-league Cats baseball team based at LaGrave Field and a partner in the proposed project. "We want this ballpark and development to be a legacy."

The proposal, which was unveiled Tuesday for city leaders, calls for Bell and his partners to buy and develop the city-owned land over the next 18 years. It was considered Tuesday by a council committee and is scheduled to go to the full council for discussion next week.

Bell declined to divulge his potential partners because, he said, the deal has not been finalized. But he said he hopes to break ground by the end of the year.

The Gideon Toal architecture firm -- which has been heavily involved in the Trinity River Vision -- has been working on conceptual plans for the development, Bell said.

Bell said he hadn't bought the land already because of environmental cleanup that is needed and deed restrictions -- two issues that still must be resolved.

He said the development would complement two other proposed north-side developments: a TCC riverfront campus and the Trinity River Vision, which would reroute the Trinity River and create a town lake north of downtown.

"This is a field of dreams," said Councilman Jim Lane, whose district includes the land. "This is a wonderful plan."

In 2002, Bell opened the $4 million ballpark off North Main Street at the site of the original LaGrave Field, which was built in 1926 and torn down in 1967.

Since then, he said, he has worked to expand south toward downtown. The latest proposal could include as many as 1,000 town houses and an undetermined number of offices, restaurants, stores and parks.

According to information presented to the council committee Tuesday, the city would grant Bell and his partners the right to lease or buy any portion or all of the land for up to 18 years. Other developers could also buy the land if Bell did not meet or beat their offers.

Bell and his partners would have to submit plans to the city for approval before they could buy the land, said Tom Higgins, the city's economic development director.

Bell said he hopes some of the development, most likely residences, would be open at about the same time that TCC plans to open its new campus, in 2008.

He said the entire development would be completed within 10 to 12 years.

Lane said the development would enhance north Fort Worth.

"Fort Worth had no vision for that area when Carl Bell stepped forward with his plan for the Cats," he said. "The original agreement was to use this land for development and complement the Cats stadium. I don't want us to forget what our intentions were."

[lobster]

Dubbed Cats' Island, the urban village is proposed for 35 acres of vacant city-owned land that could also include a museum featuring former Fort Worth Cats player and manager Bobby Bragan's sports memorabilia.

an interesting idea but a horrible name...
Cats' Island sounds like a bad attraction at Sandy Lake

[AdamB]

Hey guys...


I am thinking about building two 70 story residential twin towers as well as another 80 story office building on three city blocks. The whole project will likely be done 2012. First I have to submit the plans to the city before I will start buying the property and oh yeah one other small detail, I am going to need to win Powerball five times in a row before I even start this project but I promise you there is a great chance my project will happen.

Just thought I would let you know... Can someone pass this info along to the Star Telegram for me? Thanks in advance!



When does this just become bad journalism?

[safly]

Hey guys...


I am thinking about building two 70 story residential twin towers as well as another 80 story office building on three city blocks.  The whole project will likely be done 2012.  First I have to submit the plans to the city before I will start buying the property and oh yeah one other small detail, I am going to need to win Powerball five times in a row before I even start this project but I promise you there is a great chance my project will happen.

Just thought I would let you know... Can someone pass this info along to the Star Telegram for me?  Thanks in advance!



When does this just become bad journalism?

It's basically SMALL TOWN JOURNALISM at it's best. Wal-Mart and Church gossip. I gaurantee nobody in Dallas or Arlington is even reading into this.

I can't wait to eat near a wastedump though.

Cat's Island? Litter box that.
why not Dr. Moreau's Island ? Bunch of freaks and creatures on it that spawned from waste materials of the past.

.......And this "RE" money couldn't be used to BUY a REAL PRofessional Major League team, for why now again?

[lobster]

I am thinking about building two 70 story residential twin towers as well as another 80 story office building on three city blocks.  The whole project will likely be done 2012.  First I have to submit the plans to the city before I will start buying the property and oh yeah one other small detail, I am going to need to win Powerball five times in a row before I even start this project but I promise you there is a great chance my project will happen.

That's funny because by 2012 I was going to reinforce the King Candy building, add 139 floors on top and call it "World's Tallest For The Time Being King Candy Building at Abandoned Railyard West" .. all pending on this 414-team $1 parlay bet involving every single ncaa game for the next three years all falling into place.. boy, can i pick 'em!

...already submitted the signage paperwork to the Downtown Design Review Board for the street level Orange Julius so it must happen!

LOob

[hooked]

I am thinking about building two 70 story residential twin towers as well as another 80 story office building on three city blocks.  The whole project will likely be done 2012.  First I have to submit the plans to the city before I will start buying the property and oh yeah one other small detail, I am going to need to win Powerball five times in a row before I even start this project but I promise you there is a great chance my project will happen.

That's funny because by 2012 I was going to reinforce the King Candy building, add 139 floors on top and call it "World's Tallest For The Time Being King Candy Building at Abandoned Railyard West" .. all pending on this 414-team $1 parlay bet involving every single ncaa game for the next three years all falling into place.. boy, can i pick 'em!

...already submitted the signage paperwork to the Downtown Design Review Board for the street level Orange Julius so it must happen!

LOob

I'm really excited, because I heard that each of these new projects are expected to produce about 1,500 jobs.

[lobster]

I'm really excited, because I heard that each of these new projects are expected to produce about 1,500 jobs.

hahhahaha good one

[safly]

Orange Julius and Crazy Bread. Yum.

[Sam Stone]

I think this calls for an objective experiment.

Someone from the Forum with no land, no capital, and no real estate experience should issue a press release to the ST and see if they bite. Something to the effect of "Monkey Island Resort Community and Retail Mecca Planned." Throw in some details about high-rises, town homes, and promenades, every business will generate 1,500 jobs, a few artist renderings, some hyberbolic quotes from council members etc.

Winner gets a jab from the Weekly to the ST that no one will ever lay eyes on.

[DrkLts]

I said it once somewhere in this forum, and I say it AGAIN: If we want a brand spankin' new tall skyscraper here is my master plan....
If all of us forum members form a lotto pool, probably the multi-state lotto, and with our winnings of millions, construct the city's tallest. How 'bout it guys?

[redhead]

So many miss the boat that the name of the game in RE is FINANCING. You either have the cash equity to make it work or you don't. So ANYONE can talk a big game about big building, but if the big BUCKEROOS aren't there to support it--no dice. It's not about being PUBLISHED...it's about getting the money to get started. And if too many "sold" projects DON'T get closed, then the institutions start to get nervous...Wasn't everything on Henderson and Bluff sold? Why are there see-thru buildings at night? Just a question.

[safly]

I said it once somewhere in this forum, and I say it AGAIN: If we want a brand spankin' new tall skyscraper here is my master plan....
If all of us forum members form a lotto pool, probably the multi-state lotto, and with our winnings of millions, construct the city's tallest. How 'bout it guys? 

Nah. I think our chances are much better this coming weekend at the Grand Prairie RT. Or even that swank I-35 Indian Casino in OK.

[safly]

So many miss the boat that the name of the game in RE is FINANCING.  You either have the cash equity to make it work or you don't.  So ANYONE can talk a big game about big building, but if the big BUCKEROOS aren't there to support it--no dice.  It's not about being PUBLISHED...it's about getting the money to get started.  And if too many "sold" projects DON'T get closed, then the institutions start to get nervous...Wasn't everything on Henderson and Bluff sold?  Why are there see-thru buildings at night?  Just a question.

Maybe to show everyone riding along Henderson that YOU TOO can have a GRAND VIEW of....
....a Moore Advertising Billboard, and.....
..... the HISTORIC "Parthenon".

[lobster]

Wasn't everything on Henderson and Bluff sold?  Why are there see-thru buildings at night?  Just a question.

..not so see-through w/ that fancy schmancy billboard covering half the windows

[lobster]

Someone from the Forum with no land, no capital, and no real estate experience should issue a press release to the ST and see if they bite. 

psst they're watching

[choobler]

You should all be ashamed of yourself. This forum should bring forth positive discussion about our great city. Besides, I would rather hear good news over murders and robberies even if it doesn't come to pass. And bashing the Star-Telegram isn't going to accomplish anything, just be thankful that we have a local paper and aren't forced to read DMN.

[tcole]

just be thankful that we have a local paper and aren't forced to read DMN.

The Startlegram is owned, managed, and ultimately edited by Knight-Ridder syndicates located in San Jose, CA. Not exactly "local." The DNM is owned, managed, and ultimately edited by AH Belo located in their home town.

And this forum should BOTH analyze positive developments as well as skeptically criticize questionable assertions and proposals put forth in and around Fort Worth. Redhead is absolutely correct in that financing is what gets a project like this off the ground, and a proposal by the architect/developer in question would merit some skepticism based on the scope of the proposal versus the scope of previous developments as well as the track record concerning recent completions. The news media should be a skeptical arbiter of facts. Unfortunately, too many today in that profession just funnel PR copy or blankly reprint news releases without applying some critical judgment and editing. As such, it is absolutely fair game for members on this board to question and to bash the Startlegram for that failure to fulfill basic journalistic tenets.

Choobler, "good news ... even if it doesn't come to pass" can also be defined as rumor or more viciously as fiction. We, as a community, should expect, nay, demand more than mere rumor propogation in favor of actual news reporting from our "local" newspaper that no longer even proclaims "Fort Worth" in its masthead.

[safly]

You are correct about the FWST. Knight-Ridder has it's fingerprints all over it. No longer an Amon Carter or Sid Richardson feel. Not Like I knew of those folks but their names posthumously get tossed around this town from time to time. Alright, just about everyday. Alright, EVERYDAY!

GO FW WEEKLY!

[AdamB]

We should be ashamed of ourselves??? I think the people who should be ashamed of themselves are the ones that are out for ridiculous self promotion at the expense of the suscriber base that is looking for legitimate NEWS.

It would be one thing if a project that is NOT likely to happen was printed in the paper once maybe every five years... but it seems like we get this crap on a weekly basis. Can someone tally up the rumored projects that the XXXX XXXXX Startlegram has printed that never went through?

[JBB]

Since ground wasn't broken on this project in the three days since the article ran, it's now "NOT likely to happen"? Not every project comes together at the lightening fast pace of P1 or The Tower. I remember several instances of people questioning if the T&P project was dead and, last time I checked, it was rolling right along.

And, I'm sure the number of failed rumored projects that get press in the ST is directly proportionate to those in papers in major cities across the country.

[tcole]

JBB:

I guess the question from my standpoint at least is that if say Trammell Crow or Gerald Hines released a press statement to the ST stating that they proposed a 45 story residential tower for downtown, one would naturally question: "what do they see and do local professionals (developers/agents/bankers) see it as well?" After that is answered, whether positively or negatively, the proposal has some merit in that both individuals/firms have tremendous experience in promoting such developments, and thus the "news" is just that, news.

OTOH, when a local architect/developer proposes the same, the second aspect above is worthy of some skepticism simply b/c the proposal is at least one order of magnitude greater than anything he has attempted before in terms of cost. That said, if one closes on a piece of property and that "fact" is thus news and an inquiry into what development if any is planned, any answer should be printed as additional "news." In the case here though, perhaps responsible reporting would include that such a proposal's feasibility is questioned by other professionals in the area or a significant departure from the developer’s core experience. If I were editing the story, I would have asked immediately (twice to convey my skepticism) if the developer had the financing lined up for construction and would then confer with about 4 or 5 professionals who know the vagrancies of the market to assess their opinion of feasibility. All of that would thus be reported - the "PR puff" aspect followed by some cold objective analysis as presented by peer professionals. The reader could then assign for themselves whether they then believe that the project is feasible or likely.

The ST dutifully reported for 6 years that the Landmark Tower would be completed and would be a premier residential project. If any writer at the ST had bothered to ask most RE professionals in the area as to their assessment of the probability of the project being completed, said professionals would have resoundingly answered that no, the developer is undercapitalized, the building needs too much work and that the promoters of the project do not have the experience to pull it off. The tornado expedited the inevitable with regard to Landmark. And so a good amount of people who read the excerpts in the ST believed for most of that time that Landmark would be developed - something that bore out to be; fiction (see definition in my previous post).

[vjackson]

[quote name='JBB' date='Apr 14 2005, 02:28 PM']
Since ground wasn't broken on this project in the three days since the article ran, it's now "NOT likely to happen"? Not every project comes together at the lightening fast pace of P1 or The Tower.

I now live in Dallas and it just seems to me that when I read an announcement of a new development going up, I see progress very very quickly. In FW, it seems like things move a lot slower and sometimes not at all. P1, RS and the Tower were some of the fastest moving large projects I've ever seen in FW. But if I'm not mistaken, the T&P went back and fort for awhile before seeing any real activity. I get so fed up with these useless announcements in FW, and why does it take 8, 10, 12 years to possibly build some of these possible projects?? I've moved to Dallas from FW in 2000, have you seen how much is in uptown now that wasn't there five years ago??? (Please don't start the Fort Worth v Dallas debate. That is not the intention of my post.)

[lobster]

The ST dutifully reported for 6 years that the Landmark Tower would be completed and would be a premier residential project.  If any writer at the ST had bothered to ask most RE professionals in the area as to their assessment of the probability of the project being completed, said professionals would have resoundingly answered that no

you are 100% right -- the news needs to apply a reality filter, especially after being burned so many times in the past .. In the Landmark's case, when you have a professional hype team as Scott Christiansen had back when he owned the Landmark, his PR releases and artist renderings were irresistable to run as gospel ..

note: Full-color artist renderings of grand projects make for great front-page-of-the-Metro-section filler on a slow news day

[tcole]

That is a good point VJackson. I'll add to it that there is not even a 45+ story residential development planned (ground up) for either Houston or Dallas. So, why would FW's metrics be better when the relative price of erecting such a structure is going to be pretty close for all cities concerned and the rate of return threshold here is certainly no less than Dallas or Houston.

[lobster]

You should all be ashamed of yourself. This forum should bring forth positive discussion about our great city.

I certainly don't think any of us should be ashamed to use our copious amounts of opinionated satire to speak our open honest views of how we see things in here.. it's part of the fun of a forum and i'd really hate for some of these truly witty posters to feel like they should tone down posts out of "shame".. silly

Besides, I would rather hear good news over murders and robberies even if it doesn't come to pass. 

Blinders: ON. check!

And bashing the Star-Telegram isn't going to accomplish anything

you'd be surprised how influential some of these discussions actually are.. keep watching :ph34r:

just be thankful that we have a local paper and aren't forced to read DMN.

thankful? Even towns of 5000 people have a local paper.. Hood County News from Granbury, Saginaw Times-Record, etc w/ headlines that read "Boy blows largest bubble at Yellow Squash Days Festival"

[hooked]

Choobler:

Don't be intimidated by the responses to your post. Everyone's entitled to his/her own opinion. At least you gave everybody something new to talk about. We all like to give the Star Telegram a hard time; they're such an easy target, it's almost like shooting great big fish in a little bitty barrel.

Post some more, just to keep things interesting.

[Urbndwlr]

Re: early announcements of proposed developments

I don't know why the XTO project was announced so early, but I imagine the reason the residential projects are announced early is to leverage the PR to generate some unit reservations.

I assume that developers such as Schaumburg, who have only done modest-sized projects to date, don't have the balance sheet to close on a full Downtown block without raising capital.

So, he puts down some earnest money on the site, sends out a press release and begins marketing the project to get some required % of reservations that he can then take to a lender or potential equity investors, who will then release the funds to allow him to close on the land. I might be wrong, but that would be how a smaller entrepreneurial developer would pull off such a large project. He would then only expose himself to the risk of 1) losing his earnest money after going "hard", and 2) losing a little credibility within the RE community as someone who tried and failed to arrange financing for a planned project. That's it.

Othwerwise, he might have equity partners with him that are home builders with whom he has built several suburban mcmansions over the last couple of decades. Those guys likley have a bunch of cash and experience arranging land deals.

[tcole]

"dweller:

Closing the land sale is the easy part from the financing side. Erecting a 45+ story res. tower is going to take between $250-400+ mil. He probably only paid a few mil for the property. Lending institutions are going to be pretty wary of this "step-up" unless he is just fronting a better (more established and experienced developer) and my bet is that the PR is to assuage current or potential future equity investors. His worst case scenario is to just "flip" the property to a better capitalized entity and claim that that deal was just too good to pass up. that said, I think that you are for the most part on the money.

[choobler]

Thank you HOOKED. I will continue to post.
TCOLE AND LOBSTER, believe it or not, the Star-Telegram is one of only a few newspapers that are run just as they have always been, like an independent newspaper. I work at the S-T and can tell you that there is no Knight-Riddger influence in the editors' daily budget meetings or in the newsroom every night when the news is assembled into a newspaper. The Star-Telegram today is still run just like it was when Amon Carter was around and changing hands from one mega media company to another hasn't changed it very much. I recall when I first heard about the Landmark Tower project it was via a quarter page ad that ran numerous times in the paper. Doesn't that give it some creditbility? Just because a project fails in the long run, doesn't mean it wasn't newsworthy at some point. Lets give new project announcements the benefit of the doubt and encourage developers to make the best projects for our city rather than make fun of them.

[choobler]

I also want to apologize for using the word ashamed. I would encourage everyone to speak their mind, just try to be more positive and less pessimistic.

[tcole]

You may work there, but according to Amon's descendents, the paper runs nothing like it did under his or his son's influence and management. Without such knowledge, I am also rather certain that he would never have so diminished the name "Fort Worth" from the paper's masthead.

As to Landmark, re-read my post. All I said was that the ST is often negligent in tracking down corroboration or peer review. Again, had you guys followed up with some contact with any number of RE professionals, you would have (presumably if you chose to print it) presented a balanced report on the prospect of Landmark going through. Everybody and their dog worth his/her/its salt in the commercial and RE development business in FW thought that project was a lead balloon, so why did the ST continue to back the story as though everything was on the "up and up?" The same can be said for the development in question in this thread, yet my guess is that no-one in your office has bothered to run down that angle.

I work at the S-T and can tell you that there is no Knight-Riddger influence in the editors' daily budget meetings or in the newsroom every night when the news is assembled into a newspaper.

You are going to be hard pressed to convince me that KRI, a public company, has NO influence over budget matters within a wholly owned subsidiary. That would be irresponsible corporate management. Furthermore, from an editorial standpoint, it is difficult to ascertain any influence given that so much of the paper today (outside of local and sports) seems to be wire reports or borrowed stories.

I'll finish with a question for you choobler. That is, do you honestly believe that the ST is a better paper today than it was in 1985, or 1975, or for that matter, 1965? I do not mean does it have a larger subscriber base, which I believe it does, but rather as a whole package; its writing quality and intended level of comprehension, its editing (both within stories and as a paper as a whole), its package presentation – how the reader views it, and its prestige - and not just in terms of journalistic awards but perception outside the trade.

From my perspective, as well as a number of subscribers over the years - including Carter's descendents, the answer is a sad ... no. And not marginally.