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Quiet Zones


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Poll: Downtown Train Horns Poll (25 member(s) have cast votes)

How many trains do you hear per day?

  1. I hear 1 to 3 horns per 24 hr period (4 votes [16.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.00%

  2. I hear 4 to 8 horns per 24 hr period (9 votes [36.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.00%

  3. I hear too many to count period (6 votes [24.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 24.00%

  4. I can now differentiate between lines and no longer wear a watch. (1 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

  5. Train horns have become an integral part of my dreams (3 votes [12.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.00%

  6. I don't live near tracks, I should not be taking this poll. (2 votes [8.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.00%

I find train horns:

  1. REALLY Obnoxious all the time (1 votes [3.85%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.85%

  2. REALLY Obnoxious at night (9 votes [34.62%])

    Percentage of vote: 34.62%

  3. Can be obnoxious on occasion (10 votes [38.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.46%

  4. I can no longer hear in that frequency range. (2 votes [7.69%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.69%

  5. I've lost the batteries to my hearing thingy (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. I find them very nostalgic, hobo days, etc… (4 votes [15.38%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.38%

Should any residential area have the option to have a no horn zone?

  1. Yes (13 votes [52.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.00%

  2. No (3 votes [12.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.00%

  3. Yes, but.... (8 votes [32.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 32.00%

  4. No, but... (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Don't care (1 votes [4.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.00%

Who should pay to have a crossing converted?

  1. Private funds - the residents (8 votes [17.02%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.02%

  2. Private funds - the railroads (7 votes [14.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.89%

  3. Public funds - City (10 votes [21.28%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.28%

  4. Public funds - State (6 votes [12.77%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.77%

  5. Public funds - US / DOT / Homeland Security (5 votes [10.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.64%

  6. Combination - you can pick more than one above (11 votes [23.40%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.40%

Do you think all of downtown Fort Worth should be a no train horn zone?

  1. Yes (14 votes [56.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 56.00%

  2. No (11 votes [44.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 44.00%

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#101 grow_smart

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 05:27 PM

QUOTE(redhead @ Jan 12 2007, 04:54 PM) View Post

If I'm wrong Andy, correct me, but I think the legislation was prompted by a huge jump in crossing fatalities. Vehicular, not pedestrian I believe. So now the game is pin the price on the ???city/RR/developer/or ultimately the taxpayer if they can figure a way to do it.


To make an extremely long story short, the legislation was prompted by the ad hoc policies in place across the country regarding quiet zones, primarily in the Chicago area (where a commuter train would have had to essentially blow its horn non-stop for a 45-minute ride along some lines). The FRA wanted a standard methodology by which agencies could implement quiet zones that was agreeable to the RR companies. It took an extremely long time to go through the federal process (at least 10 years).

The issue is liability - when a train hits a car with people in it, there is typically a huge lawsuit involved. Then the question becomes who was at fault? Shoudl they have blown the horn? Was the City's policy valid? This multi-million dollar question far outweighs anyone trying to pin a cost on a developer.


#102 David Love

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Posted 15 January 2007 - 09:51 PM

Here are some resources on the train crossing situation... it's a lot more involved than most realize but from the data you can find here:

"You can draw your own conclusion(s) but a few short bullets simply will not cut it on this topic."


In 1996, the Texas legislature passed, and the governor signed into law, a bill requiring the Texas Department of Transportation (TxDOT) to conduct a pilot program assessing the value of using cameras at rail crossings. TxDOT contracted with The Texas Transportation Institute (Texas A&M University) to assist. Six locations were selected. Two each in Ft. Worth, Austin, and Houston. Contracts were awarded to three companies for the one year pilot. The results of the pilot are now being reviewed by http://tti.tamu.edu/ Texas Transportation Institute

Final Rulling on Train Horns

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/1318 Train Horn Rules

http://safetydata.fr...officeofsafety/ Crossing stats, etc…

http://www.fra.dot.g...n_plan_2004.pdf Crossing Action Plan…

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/Content/801 US DOT Rail Crossing Plan Inventory.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/Content/756 Guidance on Traffic Control at Highway-Rail Grade Crossings

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#103 djold1

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 01:23 PM

I think this discussion has moved away from Quiet Zones and probably ought to go to another thread. The Crossing Safety subject is so political and is so polarized right now that I personally don't want to spend the time on it.

QZ installation certainly can be a component when secure grade crossing protection is attempted but it really contributes nothing to safety at all and possibly can either force the installation of even more expensive measures or probably having the QZ itself can also contribute to some increased danger. That needs to be hashed out.

As I said before, I am certainly in favor of sercure crossings where they can be justified. However, a lot of the highway/rail accidents & fatalities in past years took place at isolated rural locations where there was just a crossbuck warning. It has always stunned me that cities or counties don't always require a Stop sign in conjunction with the warning crossbuck in these lonely locations. I think that would probably help a lot and would also define the legal situation somewhat.

The only totally secure crossing, quiet or not, is one that goes under or over or is removed.

Again I think this is off topic and proabably should be continued elsewhere for those who are interested..


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#104 David Love

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 05:06 PM

That’s the challenge with “quite zones,” they’re not a subject that can be easily defined, nor categorized. What can be defined as a pesky noise pollution nuisance for residential home owners or office workers can also be defined as a vital life saving device for others and unfortunately for a pitiful few, the signal to start the race.

On an architecture forum, train horns, car alarms, outside bands in the 100 db and up range, car alarms set to sound if the wind blows, show off revving from all vehicles, etc… all of these items have an impact on residential home owners and developers / builders downtown, so it kind of falls in the middle, residential / commercial, but the majority of the problems can be addressed, in varying degrees, by the commercial sector.

Out of all of them, train horns happen to be governed by several entities and runs the greatest risk of taking human life if changes to them are handled inappropriately. They’re an obnoxious nuisance to anyone living within earshot, I’ve heard 4 separate sets of blasts while typing this, they are also a safety feature for others.

Guess we could add a poll…

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#105 David Love

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 05:51 PM

The train horn poll, if you live within earshot of a train crossing please take the poll, you don't have to live downtown.




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#106 djold1

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Posted 16 January 2007 - 07:36 PM

David ..

You have a real talent for poll production...

I don't understand why one or the other of the major political parties are not after you.

You demonstrate the old adage continually served up by my Radio Survey Prof in college:

The form of the question is much more important than the answer it produces.

Or, most of the bias is in the question not the answer..

I appreciate that yours is tongue-in-cheek (I hope) but it looks too much like the garbage that we see pushed on us with great solemnity about every possible subject on the TV & Cable news.

My comments have a a 5% error margin...

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#107 David Love

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 12:08 PM

QUOTE(djold1 @ Jan 16 2007, 07:36 PM) View Post

David ..

You have a real talent for poll production...

I don't understand why one or the other of the major political parties are not after you.

You demonstrate the old adage continually served up by my Radio Survey Prof in college:

The form of the question is much more important than the answer it produces.

Or, most of the bias is in the question not the answer..

I appreciate that yours is tongue-in-cheek (I hope) but it looks too much like the garbage that we see pushed on us with great solemnity about every possible subject on the TV & Cable news.

My comments have a a 5% error margin...


The poll is intended for Fort Worth’s urban residents or others within ear shot of tracks so yes, the results will be very biased. The point is that if you’re in range of train horns you’ll find them annoying and want to find a way to solve the problem. What I’m curious about is: How annoyed people are, and what they think should be done to solve the problem(s)?

One of my calculus professors was an ex Pentagon whiz kid that did the SPC on a number of weapon systems being developed. I was one of the geeks that actually enjoyed his class on SPC; the first thing you learn is that you always discard results that are out of range high and out of range low to get to the quality results you’re looking for.
In this poll for instance, I did not put a lot of time into it since there are far too many variables to get people to answer all at once, but overall there are one or two questions that qualify the poll taker and others that are the root questions of the poll. So, if the poll taker is just being silly, their results are discarded and you are left with a more accurate picture. What it comes down to is: If you’re not within ear shot of tracks, it’s not a problem for you and I doubt any taxes you pay will be used to pay for crossing modifications elsewhere. I know that the ridiculous amount of taxes I pay to live downtown had better go for something that makes living downtown a little nicer. If not, I’ll find the political entities downtown that believe it should and volunteer some of my time and resources there.

You may want to readdress your error margin, if you need the formula for standard deviation let me know, think I have it tattooed somewhere. ;-)

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#108 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 12:31 PM

Much of the problem with trains near residences has to do with zoning issues. Inner city areas near railroad tracks have typically been the first to deteriorate, since the noise, both rumble and shrieks, from passing trains makes it more difficult to attract residents willing and able to maintain and improve the properties. Add to this the hazardous materials that are periodically released along the tracks, on a routine basis from the mechanical processes that drive the trains, to chlorine gas that may spill in the event of a derailment. There are certainly better uses for land adjacent to railroads than residential. Industrial and distribution development should be, and perhaps will be more in the future, sited along railroads in order to take advantage of the transportation potential; much more efficient than tractor-trailer rigs for long-distance and low value-per-weight shipments. Parks along tracks, especially with tree-planted berms raised along the rail right-of-way is a great way to mitigate the effects of noise generated along the railroad, and can provide space for bike and hike trails.

That said, I find it somewhat amusing that many of the bulk housing developments being put up in north Fort Worth are making the same mistakes that were made years ago closer in, by placing residential areas directly adjacent to tracks. Without restrictive zoning, those tracts next to tracks are relatively cheap, and thus attractive to housing manufacturers, who have no long-term interest in the areas they develop. I saw this first-hand in Haltom City where KB Homes is still trying to sell lots and build houses along the UP line just west of Haltom Road backing up to Spring Lake. According to city management the company is very surprised that the houses are not all sold out. There was absolutely no attempt made at this site to mitigate the train noise. A berm raised along the railroad property would have made a considerable difference, but would have severely limited the number of lots that could have been carved up from the property. There are no restrictions in HC on how close to railroads housing can be.

In cases like this, and I suppose this is the vast majority of the cases, I tend to question whether the public should pay for quiet crossings. People can choose whether or not to buy and live near trains, and train horns serve an indisputable safety function, traditionally more in the countryside, but increasingly in urban areas as drivers are more and more distracted by cell phones and (gasp) televisions as they are moving around in their vehicles. On the other hand, a public effort to institute "quiet" crossings does serve to help prop up the value of land near tracks, a form of "economic development" I suppose. I would stick out my neck and say that cities, perhaps with matching funds from the state and the USDOT, should cooperate in a multi-year effort to eliminate all at-grade railroad crossings in urban areas. I believe this could be justified as a way to eliminate horn noise pollution, prevent emergency vehicles from being delayed, generally speed up commute times, allow trains to run at higher speeds, and of course to cut down the number of accidents between trains and autos. Perhaps special taxing districts along railroad tracks could be established to allow property owners who would most benefit from quiet crossings to bear a larger proportion of the associated costs.

All that said, greenfield areas being developed should have zoning requirements severely limiting the uses of land close to railroad tracks, and redevelopments adjacent to railroads should be required to somehow mitigate the noise coming off the tracks. The new freight lines around urban areas should be required to be built with no at-grade crossings from the start.

#109 David Love

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 03:52 PM

So close proximity to railroad tracks lowers land values… hummm. Would make you think that cities would do their best to re route them away from city centers.
I watch the trains down here and don’t notice any loading or unloading; are they just routed here for switching?

Don’t get me wrong I’d like to see trains utilized more, the infrastructure is in place and should be maximized. How are long haul trucking companies even able to compete?

I find the railroad evolution in America an interesting topic, more accurately, the limited evolution. They were built at great cost to many and the profits were shared by a select few, reminds me a little of oil companies, profit wise anyway.

From the time the tracks were put down rules surrounding them were set by the rail roads, later by various governing bodies, but they have always been slanted towards the railroad. Are ambulances transporting patients in a life or death situation granted right of way at crossings? Is a train ever required to stop at a crossing if it’s not being impeded with something on the tracks? Cities are evolving along with technology at faster and faster rates yet we coexist with industrial infrastructure that changes only when forced or paid to.

One curious thing to note, it’s perfectly legal to put a train horn on your truck, it is a safety feature you know, but it’s not legal to use them in a way that would annoy folks in residential areas, only railroads can get away with that. They come in a variety of after market packages, could be handy in a number of hazardous situations or when you just feel like giving people a big Texas howdy, “as long as you’re not annoying anyone.”

http://www.airhornso...rain/train.html

http://www.hornblasters.com/products/

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#110 AndyN

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 05:32 PM

FYI, on a tangent, the railroad museum industry has had numerous thefts of railroad horns in the past several years. Historic locomotives across the US have been stripped of their horns for these use by these knuckleheads. If I had my druthers, it would be illegal to have a horn like this mounted on a street legal car/truck, much less use one.

But this is irrelevant to the question of whether or not quiet zones should be payed for by the general public or, as David alludes to, "Big Rail".
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#111 Keller Pirate

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 05:34 PM

David, I think it is unfair to say that railroads use horns in a way to annoy people in residential areas. If you read to Federal register you know that an engineer can be fined $5,000 for failure to sound the horn at a crossing. Thats quite a bit more than a red light violation or even a DUI. You or I would never let that happen if it was our job. At any road crossing, an FRA inspector could be waiting and if you didn't blow the horn $5,000 out of your pocket, not the company's

The change in the law requires them to sound the horn for 20 seconds before you enter the street and that is tricky to gage when you are travelling at different speeds but there is a provision to go a little over or under the time requirement if you are making a good faith effort.

Ambulances or any other emergency vehicle does not have the right of way if a train is coming. Obviously the train can crush anything on the highway and stopping is something that takes advance planning. However, if a train is stopped blocking a crossing they must give way to an emergency vehicle as soon as possible to do so safely, either by pulling up or uncoupling the train and cutting the crossing. With the crew all on the headend of the train now it is sometimes hard for them to know if they are blocking an emergency vehicle they can't see.

A train will stop short of a crossing if they know that the crossing warning devices are not working. If a citizen or police officer notices a broken crossing arm and notifies the railroad and the dispatcher notifies the train they are supposed to stop and flag a crossing that is defective. I have been told this is very hard to do by crew members. They say when one man stands in the road trying to stop traffic and motorists see a train they often try and runover the man to beat the train. One crewman said he threw his burning fusee at a car as he jumped out of the way and it stuck in the grill of the car as it went down the street. Just recently in California a trainman riding on a railcar was struck at a crossing and killed.

Did you get a snow day from school?

#112 David Love

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Posted 17 January 2007 - 07:37 PM

KP
I actually didn’t even notice the snow until about 4:30 when I ran downstairs to talk to the management folks. Took the week off to cram for finals so keep the distractions to a minimum; had I been in the later stages of study I use the 10 foot windows as white boards for notes, the extra white background would have been handy.

I was being a bit sarcastic on the horn annoyances, I know engineers have very rigid guidelines as to when and where they have to sound alerts. Safety or legal? Does anyone else not find it odd that: Other than being or about to be on the tracks, trains have the right of way, there is no form of human life emergency that trumps a trains right of way. ...as long as you're not in their way.

Since I can see large segments of multiple lines I have noticed distinct differences in how horns are utilized. I’ve watched trains sound their horns for 10 plus seconds with no crossing for at least 40 plus seconds down the track, it goes behind a building so I’m not sure beyond that. Some of their horn uses makes no logical sense unless they’re just saying howdy.

The point with the right of ways at crossings was just to note that everything around the tracks changes, but it’s as though people think of rail roads as a force of nature, that no one expects it to adapt, so if someone dies in an ambulance because trains always have the right of way, it’s just bad luck, they don’t have to stop or if they are stopped and blocking access, again just more bad luck.

So what’s the ruling on how long the sound bursts are to be? Some go on and on and it’s the same trains in the same locations, others in the same spots just hit a couple quick bursts, I’m sad to say that I can now tell them apart, the P, K and M series and a few with off tone harmonics.

I don’t think it was a bad design to begin with, worked fine a century or so ago, but as the country has evolved “around” the cargo rail system we’re stuck with a system that’s become a bad design for today’s cities. We have maybe TWO crossings in Fort Worth with cameras on them but how many stop lights and highways do? I think the reasons rail has lagged behind is because people don't expect it to keep pace, we've always adapted to rail, take time zones for instance. Then there was another point mentioned a few posts up, that rail road tracks lower property value, could the fact that many with proximity issues lack the voice to get their complaints heard …over the horns.

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#113 Keller Pirate

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 11:41 PM

After thinking about this for a while I have come up with an instance where trains do not have the right of way. Water traffic is always superior to train traffic. It goes back to the fact the boats and barges plied the rivers of America before trains existed so they get to go first when the two intersect. Kind of like riparian rights, if the river goes by your place first, you get the water.

As I mentioned the new law requires the horn to be sounded for 20 seconds before the train enters a crossing. The old law was that the horn would be sounded 1/4 mile before the crossing until it was occupied.

It would not be practical for a train to stop at automobile crossings. They just wouldn't ever get where they were going if that happened. Can you think of any crossings in the city limits that a mile long train could pass by without delaying an automobile? If they stopped at one crossing in an urban area they most likely would be blocking another crossing anyway, so that precedence of order seems correct to me.

As for ambulances being blocked, I have heard that argument made many times. I am sure somewhere at sometime a person has died because of being blocked by a train, but I haven't personally ever read about such a thing happening. Technology is helping mitigate that risk. Today in urban areas critically ill patients are helicoptered to hospitals and that leaves less critical patients to take an old fashioned ambulance to the hospital. I would be more concerned about a fire truck enroute to my house being blocked. I’m sure you have heard that a train at speed can take a mile to make an emergency stop so a moving train just can’t yield to an emergency vehicle even if they wanted to. In my time as a dispatcher on the railroad I have had trains hit a fire truck, more than one police car, a helicopter and a two story apartment house on the tracks.

As for railroads lowering property values. I would like to know what living person in Ft Worth bought a home nowhere near the tracks and has had the railroad come and build next to their home? The North Ft Worth area along Hwy 377 seems to be generating the most complaints about horns these days but the houses came long after railroad so the railroad can't be lowering their values. They also seem to be getting some action on their complaints since the city seems willing to pay millions of dollars on quiet zones to improve their quality of life.

After Dismuke wrote his tome, which I seem to be trying to out do him here, I have been thinking about these zones more. I don’t care if Ft Worth wants to spend money on the crossings in their city to create quiet zones but, I’m going to do what I can to make sure Keller doesn’t spend money for them. My reasoning is that horns work and the increased safety devices work as well as the horns. Why spend $250,000 or more per crossing when we have something less expensive right now? There are 4 crossings along Hwy 377 within the Keller city limits, so this will cost us at least $1 million. Ft Worth is bigger and may have money to spare but that is a lot of money for little Keller and it could be used to benefit more citizens at this time. Maybe later down the road we could do this after the 3rd fire station is built and staffed and more streets have been resurfaced.


#114 David Love

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:49 AM

Water right of ways don’t really apply to DTFW, if your house location has issue with those I’d think you’d have bigger problems to deal with.

In urban areas trains should not impede traffic flow, new installations don’t, cities that deal with locations that still do have a distinct advantage over those that don’t. Who came first seems to apply when convenient and generally goes to the group with the deepest pockets.

One thing to note: I’ve not noticed any BNSF trains sounding their horns as they enter DTFW; can’t elaborate on any others yet.

...some solutions are cheaper than others.

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#115 Keller Pirate

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 06:07 PM

QUOTE(David Love @ Jan 22 2007, 08:49 AM) View Post

In urban areas trains should not impede traffic flow,
...some solutions are cheaper than others.

You may be right but no one has figured out how to do that. I look more favorably on grade separations than quiet zones because they kill two birds with one expensive stone. The area we live in can't afford to build new highways without charging tolls so I don't think we can afford to build very many grade separations. I did find this new posting from the FRA, but $350 million for the whole country is a drop in the bucket.

Here is a link for anyone wanting to read the 11 page PDF file.

http://a257.g.akamai...7/pdf/07-45.pdf

#116 Brian

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Posted 26 January 2007 - 05:33 PM


I have been reading this topic and find it somewhat amusing. There was a time when towns lived or died depending where the railroads laid their tracks. Now everyone finds them a nuisance. Just be glad there aren't 7 to 9 railroads running in and out of Ft Worth like there use to be. The railroads are what makes this country what it is and have for years. One train can haul 300+ semi trailers cross country much faster and efficient than having all of those trucks on the roads. The railroad industry is booming right now. Go to UP or BNSF websites and see how many job openings that have across the U.S. Rail traffic is at its highest levels, hence the increase in horn noise. Here is also a link on what each series of horn signals mean. A road crossing requires a minimum of 4 and if you have 4 crossing in a row, you get a minimum of 16 horn blast. http://www.uprr.com/...s/signals.shtml

#117 AndyN

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:07 PM

Raise your hand if you work for BNSF.

Just kidding.

There are a few of us on here who are involved in railroads and/or are railfans, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss methods for improvimg the road/rail interface as technology improves.
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#118 Brian

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 07:16 PM

I guess that would be me! wink.gif Must have been pretty obvious. Maybe the UP can dig a big trench along Highway 377 and run trains below the grade crossings like the Alemeda Corridor Trench in California. http://www.cement.or..._railtrench.asp

#119 David Love

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 09:15 PM

Posted on Sun, Jan. 28, 2007

Toxic train cargo seen as vulnerable to attackBy ANNA M. TINSLEY
STAR-TELEGRAM/KHAMPHA BOUAPHANH

Any one of them could be a target.

Every day, more than 100 trains pass through Metroplex neighborhoods, and thousands others crisscross their way through America, some carrying toxic chemicals that could produce a catastrophe if a terrorist attack released them in a heavily populated area.

More than five years after 9-11, federal officials worried about the next big target are considering proposed rules limiting the time chemicals sit unwatched in rail yards, requiring inspections for explosives and mandating better tracking of hazardous chemicals at all times.

"The biggest danger ... is the possibility of a terrorist blowing up a car which causes ... dangerous chemicals to be emitted into the air," Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said recently.

It could kill or injure thousands of people, contaminate water supplies and cause millions of dollars in damage, Homeland Security officials contend.

That's a huge concern in Fort Worth, where at least three companies -- BNSF Railway, Union Pacific and the Fort Worth & Western Railroad -- have rail lines that run through the city.

That sentiment is shared around the country.

Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., has been one of the most vocal critics of the federal government, saying it should have acted more quickly and decisively.

"Rail systems in the United States are at significant risk of terrorist attack. Notwithstanding, the Congress and President Bush have been unable or unwilling to take the necessary steps to significantly enhance rail security," Biden said in a congressional report.

"Around the world, terrorist attacks against rail systems have been increasing in frequency for the last 25 years, and al-Qaeda operatives have directly targeted U.S. rail systems on numerous occasions. Historical studies have shown that rail attacks are typically intended to cause mass casualties. ... As a result, millions of Americans who utilize our rail systems are at risk and it seems that the threat is increasing."

Railroad employee union officials agree that current regulations don't do enough to protect the public, and they argue that the proposed changes don't go far enough either.

"It's a big disappointment," said John Bentley, a spokesman for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, which represents about 55,000 members nationwide, including 3,500 in Texas.

But with or without the proposed rules, railroad officials say they are working to make sure all their trains and shipments are safe and secure. Chertoff has repeatedly credited the industry for taking voluntary action.

"Ever since 9-11, we have stepped up our safety and security by creating our own safety plans," said Joe Arbona, regional spokesman for Union Pacific. "We support safety and security.

"It's ingrained in our daily work."

Not enough

Every day, common chemicals such as chlorine or anhydrous ammonia are shipped cross-country on trains.

Chlorine and anhydrous ammonia are routinely transported in liquid form. But when exposed to air, they become deadly gases.

In 2004, a train wreck near San Antonio sent chlorine gas into the air, killing at least two and sending 49 to the hospital. In 2005, a train wreck in South Carolina also released chlorine gas, killing at least nine and injuring hundreds.

An actual attack involving a chlorine tank, though, could kill 17,500, hospitalize more than 100,000 and force the evacuations of thousands of others, according to a 2005 Homeland Security report.

A worst-case-scenario plan filed with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency shows that chemicals could drift 18 miles and potentially harm, kill or displace more than 1 million residents if a rail disaster hit a heavily populated area.

Homeland security considers Texas to be among the most vulnerable areas, with so many large cities, train yards, storage areas, chemical plants and railroad tracks.

Union officials point to such vulnerabilities in saying the proposed rules don't do much to help railroad workers.

James Brunkenhoefer, a Texan who serves as the U.S. National Legislative Director for the Cleveland-based United Transportation Union, said current and proposed rules do very little to guard the public and rail employees.

"After 9-11, we wanted to amend our contracts to ask for additional training. ... They demurred," he said of management. "The only thing they want to talk to us about is raising our healthcare costs and lowering staff levels."

Union workers want their employees to be better trained to guard against potential attacks and accidents. And they want protection for whistleblowers who report problems.

In a 2005 Teamsters Rail Conference survey of rail workers, 94 percent of respondents said rail yard access was not secure, 83 percent said they hadn't received training dealing with terrorism in the previous year, and 70 percent said they had seen trespassers in rail yards.

Rep. Ed Markey, D-Mass., said that report should have been a wake-up call to the Bush administration. "When I see reports like this, I'm reminded of the National Weather Service warning that Katrina was coming and that everyone needed to be ready, only to have FEMA fail to heed the warnings," he said.

Markey and other critics, including Fred Millar, a representative of Friends of the Earth, an environmental advocacy group, criticize the proposed rules because they don't force industry to re-route chemicals around potential target cities.

"They are pre-positioning these explosive, radioactive and poison gas cargoes in our highest threat areas, exactly where the terrorists want," Millar said. "The most sensible immediate remedy is to send the potential poison gas weapons around the target cities whenever possible, then to begin substituting safer chemicals for industrial uses."

Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff said the public needs to understand "that much of our rail system was built at a time when it was considered desirable to put the rails through the cities. And that poses two problems.

"First of all, if you're going to deliver these chemicals, like chlorine, which happens to be very important in purifying water, if you're going to deliver it to a city, you've got to get it into the city.

"And second, to do a lot of rerouting would result, I think, in a substantial reconstruction of the rail industry and the rail network in this country."

Officials estimate that the security package proposed by the Department of Homeland Security could cost the industry and government $162 million over 10 years. Federal officials want feedback from the public by Feb. 20.

Being vigilant

Estimates indicate that the bulk of the hazardous materials are moved each year on about 100,000 rail cars, many passing through major cities. Federal transportation and railroad officials say they constitute less than one-half of 1 percent of all train cars.

Fort Worth Mayor Mike Moncrief said it's important to study ways to ensure that the community stays safe.

"To be sure, the rail industry has a long history of transporting hazardous cargo, and they have a proven safety track record," said Moncrief, who was recently named to the U.S. Conference of Mayors' Homeland Security Task Force.

"But in these days and times, it's comforting to know that the federal government is reviewing other ways to ensure freight moves through urban areas safely and securely."

Local rail officials say their companies are doing what they can to make their industry safe.

"We all receive training on being vigilant in our place of work," said Arbona, of Union Pacific. "We have 50,000 employees, and that many sets of eyes are looking very closely at anything that looks out of place.

"As for these federal guidelines, we're looking at the details and we want to work with customers, shippers, receivers, so we can get it done in time."

Union Pacific, BNSF and Kansas City Southern officials referred comment to the Washington, D.C.-based Association of American Railroads, which said the nation's major railroads are committed to security and safety.

"We look forward to working with DHS -- and with those who make and use chemicals -- in this joint effort to keep our nation safe and secure," said Edward R. Hamberger, president and CEO of the association.

Hazardous goods

Some materials transported by rail are especially problematic. When liquid chlorine is released, for example, it turns into a gas, stays close to the ground and spreads rapidly.

Dangerous routes

Federal officials have long considered railroads that transport toxic chemicals a prime target for terrorists because many rail lines pass through heavily populated areas like the Metroplex.

Security proposals

Proposed federal rules would limit how long chemicals are unwatched in rail yards, mandate better tracking of toxic materials and require inspections for bombs.

What do you think?

Federal officials say they want to know what people think of the proposed rules by Feb. 20.

Security proposals

Homeland Security proposals essentially limit the time tankers loaded with hazardous materials can sit in rail yards, require rail companies to agree to federal inspections, keep track of where tankers carry hazardous materials and hire workers to oversee the transfer of the cargo when it reaches its destination. Transportation Department proposals require railroads to analyze safety and security risks for moving hazardous materials and then choose the safest routes.

Input

Comments on either proposal can be submitted at dms.dot.gov or www.regulations.gov or sent to the Docket Management System, U.S. Department of Transportation, Room Plaza 401, 400 Seventh Street S.W., Washington, D.C., 20590-0001. The Homeland Security proposal is under docket No. TSA-2006-26514; the Transportation Department's is RSPA-04-18730 (HM-232E).

SOURCE: Federal Register and U.S. Department of Transportation

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#120 AndyN

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 07:41 AM

Is that article relevant to a discussion of quiet zones?
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#121 David Love

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE(AndyN @ Jan 29 2007, 07:41 AM) View Post

Is that article relevant to a discussion of quiet zones?


Thought it was applicable since many of the security related solutions would solve the noise problems. I enjoy watching the trains go through when I'm just kicking back enjoying the view, the noise is just an annoyance but I do sometimes wonder what's in those liquid containers, if you’re close enough for noise to be an issue, you’re well within range of real dangers you would not hear coming.

I think it highlights the point I’ve been trying to make which is that we now live in different times, far removed from the era when much of the railroad infrastructure was built. I’m just worried that it’s going to take a major incident before serious change is enacted.

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#122 Keller Pirate

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:53 AM

Switching to hazardous chemicals from quite zones I will say this. The country doesn't have enough money to make rail or any other mode of transportation safe from terrorism. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do a little something to make improvements. The railroads have asked congress to grant them liability exemptions for catastrophic accidents or terrorism, or let them refuse to haul the most deadly chemicals. I would think a tax on the worst kind of chemicals, like chlorine, which every water system in the country needs, could pay for police to make rail yards more inaccessible.

One of my news clipping features on the computer is railroad stories. I have read the same story that was in the S-T so many times from so many papers across the country I wonder if reporters have lemming genes. A lot of them are generated by unions contacting the paper because of dissatisfaction over contract negotiations. Maybe the stories all sound the same because the union play book is passed to the reporters and they correctly don't get anything from the railroads so they just print the same union inspired story, again and again.

I have seen the value of these stories debated many times. Some feel they are aiding the enemy in finding weak spots to attack. I worry more about our own home grown bubba's that are looking to cause some mischief doing something stupid and creating an explosion or spill. Hopefully they can't read. I expect to see this again on NBC5 in the next day or so.

Think about risk. If, as some reports say, 17,500 people could be killed by a release in the right spot. Railroad management would be betting the enitre company every time they transport a tank car of chlorine. You couldn't carry enough insurance to pay off the lawsuits from a disaster like that. Maybe chlorine should get off the rails and on the highways. Wait a minute, then someone could drive it right to the location it could do the worst damage.

I haven't given any answers to the problem. I'm not sure there are any, but the papers sure like to point out problems, even if someone else wrote the story for them.

How about something on government corruption in Tarrant County?

#123 David Love

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 03:08 PM

A lot of the stories are just news feeds, not sure if they can add their own local spin or not, I’d assume so.

I've not heard too much on local government issues, I think they have enough sibling rivalry and public interest groups to keep them on their toes.


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#124 RD Milhollin

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 03:42 PM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 29 2007, 10:53 AM) View Post

The railroads have asked congress to grant them liability exemptions for catastrophic accidents or terrorism, or let them refuse to haul the most deadly chemicals. I would think a tax on the worst kind of chemicals, like chlorine, which every water system in the country needs, could pay for police to make rail yards more inaccessible.


Maybe receipts from a "hazardous cargo tax" could be used to buy residential or business occupied land adjacent to tracks that are currently in harms way should a catastrophic release occur. That said, I still feel it is primarily the responsibility of local governments to zone such lands as unsuitable for habitation. Maybe the railroads should be required to develop a special "spill-proof" container car for such cargo.

#125 Keller Pirate

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 04:30 PM

Back to quiet zones. The other day I was reading a story from Southwest Texas, either Sanderson or Del Rio. Recently a citizen had been killed at a railroad crossing. The mayor and council were pushing the state for funds for a crossing upgrade. The mayor said the trains come through town all the time without blowing their whistles.

I guess if you get hit they didn't warn you and if you don't they were just trying to annoy you.

#126 David Love

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 11:46 AM

QUOTE(Prairie Pup @ Jan 29 2007, 03:42 PM) View Post

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 29 2007, 10:53 AM) View Post

The railroads have asked congress to grant them liability exemptions for catastrophic accidents or terrorism, or let them refuse to haul the most deadly chemicals. I would think a tax on the worst kind of chemicals, like chlorine, which every water system in the country needs, could pay for police to make rail yards more inaccessible.


Maybe receipts from a "hazardous cargo tax" could be used to buy residential or business occupied land adjacent to tracks that are currently in harms way should a catastrophic release occur. That said, I still feel it is primarily the responsibility of local governments to zone such lands as unsuitable for habitation. Maybe the railroads should be required to develop a special "spill-proof" container car for such cargo.



I think about a half mile on either side of the tracks would cover most harmful events.

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#127 David Love

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Posted 30 January 2007 - 11:59 AM

QUOTE(Keller Pirate @ Jan 29 2007, 04:30 PM) View Post

Back to quiet zones. The other day I was reading a story from Southwest Texas, either Sanderson or Del Rio. Recently a citizen had been killed at a railroad crossing. The mayor and council were pushing the state for funds for a crossing upgrade. The mayor said the trains come through town all the time without blowing their whistles.

I guess if you get hit they didn't warn you and if you don't they were just trying to annoy you.


I'd imagine everyone on this list heard a horn unless they were hearing impaired.

http://www.oli.org/s...tiesbystate.htm

I'm amazed how many websites there are dedicated to rail road crossings; as in spectators.

Arlington is making progress.....

Trains may run silently through city next yearBy SUSAN SCHROCK
STAR-TELEGRAM STAFF WRITER

STAR-TELEGRAM/BRUCE MAXWELL

Some Arlington residents have complained about train noise through the city. They say trains are blowing their horns too much while passing through a railroad crossing.

City officials said at a town hall meeting Monday that they expect approval from the rail company as early as April for plans that would create "quiet zones" at rail crossings between Bowen Road and the Great Southwest Industrial District in eastern Arlington. If the zones are approved, trains could pass silently through this stretch of the city by early next year. The Bowen Road crossing will be the first to be converted, Councilwoman Kathryn Wilemon told about 50 residents who attended the meeting.

"If we can still be safe but eliminate the sound we have the best of both worlds," said Wilemon, who said she often hears trains pass near her west Arlington home at 4 a.m.

Interest in quiet zones increased after a law was passed in 2005 requiring locomotives to sound their horns at all highway and railroad crossings.

Fort Worth, which has created three quiet zones since 2002, is working to add three more this year, a city official said. A regional effort is also under way to establish zones at 15 rail crossings along U.S. 377 in Fort Worth and Northeast Tarrant County, where about 26 trains pass each day.

How quiet zones work: Rail companies must approve requests for quiet zones. In exchange, cities agree to install additional safety features at crossings such as flashing lights, tall medians to prevent motorists from driving around gate arms or a set of four gate arms to block all lanes at a crossing. Arlington plans to install medians at most of its crossings.

At Great Southwest Parkway and Avenue E, the city also plans to install wayside horns, which play a train horn sound when a train is passing through. The wayside horn is about 95 decibels, as loud as a lawnmower, and its sound is directed at motorists in the intersection. An actual train horn is about 110 decibels, about as loud as a live rock concert, and can be heard over a wider area.

How much quiet zones cost: Arlington's project was originally estimated to cost $1,023,700. The city has received $800,000 from the federal government and earmarked about $200,000 to match it, Public Works Director Bob Lowry said. The cost is expected to increase about $300,000 because of additional equipment required for crossings at Center and Mesquite streets.

www.fra.dot.gov


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#128 David Love

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 05:14 PM

Not sure if I’m just imaging this but has anyone noticed the train horns seem to have decreased in frequency and duration downtown?

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#129 AndyN

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Posted 25 April 2007 - 09:22 PM

Nah, you're just getting used to them. ;-)

I really couldn't tell you, but I will say after 6 months in residence about 4 houses from the first set of tracks, then several more sets of tracks just east of that, that I hardly ever notice the trains at all anymore.

I will say that I sat straight up in bed last night thinking that all the bad weather had passed and hearing the tornado sirens go off when I was even hearing any thunder or other sounds of approaching storms. I turned the tv on PDQ and saw a very threatening line of storms in the White Settlement area with signs of rotation. Then a freight train started going by, which really bothered me since I thought it might mask the sound of a tornado. I suppose I shouldn't freak out until I hear a train on the west side of the house where there are no tracks. :-0

I think that was the first time I have been home to hear the sirens since moving in.
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#130 redhead

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Posted 26 April 2007 - 07:52 AM

Andy, David is right. Since the two quiet crossings have been in place in Uptown, the train noise has decreased considerably. It did not happen immediately as many of the BNSF engineers took a long time to fall into the new routine. However, a few diligent complainers made BNSF aware of exactly which engineers were still blowing their horns...almost all of them "get it" now, and the horns are silent. For those of us who lived with the train noise for YEARS---the difference is unbelievable.

#131 AndyN

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Posted 02 October 2007 - 03:34 PM

You think you got it bad? They could really use a quiet zone here:

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#132 safly

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 10:42 AM

OMG! rotflmao.gif

Can you imagine if someone in that house had a VERY BAD sleepwalking disorder???
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#133 Thurman52

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:44 PM

Our N/A has been asking for one and just got persmission from Union Pacific at 183 and Vickery. Installation starts later this month.

#134 redhead

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Posted 30 October 2007 - 09:20 PM

Is your N/A also paying for it? That's usually the catch---no money to put them in. Just curious...

#135 Thurman52

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:18 AM

our n/a is not but the developer further down the track is.

#136 texastrill

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 11:48 AM

The east has got it bad.
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#137 AndyN

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Posted 28 January 2009 - 03:59 PM

I notice that every railroad crossing that I have seen so far in Midland, Texas is a quiet zone. I have not done a definitive study, but I just noticed today that it is not just the crossings in downtown that are quiet zones but in the eastern edge of town too. I am curious of the exact number, but it has to be at least in the 10-20 range. At some point I might count them and verify that they are all quiet zones. They are typically using median dividers and full width crossing arms or double crossing arms for larger crossings, plus "no train horn" warning signs. You hardly notice the trains when they come through. Good expense in my opinion. On the other hand, I am not aware of any quiet zones in neighboring Odessa, a similar sized city. You can hear the train a'coming from a long way off especially since they now pass through town at top track speed in a hurry to get to Fort Worth. Particularly annoying at night.
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#138 AndyN

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Posted 04 November 2009 - 10:51 PM

Superb edition of Southpark tonight on Comedy Central. Had to do with Harley Davidson riders who lack attention and have to compensate in some manner. Catch the replay if you can. I'm sure they'll be showing it all week.
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#139 David Love

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Posted 07 November 2009 - 10:55 AM

The volume and number of bikers downtown, seem, to have dramatically decreased over the last 6 months and with the past week of perfect weather I've not seen the typical increase you'd expect.


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