250 replies to this topic

[renamerusk]

I'm happy with DFW Airport, and would rather all airlines fly from it....A new Fort Worth airport would not stop airlines from wanting to fly out of Dallas Love Field instead.

 

  It has gone pass what would make us happy or what we would rather have. 

 

 Budget airlines have or are near to dominating the airline industry in both domestic and international segments.  Either the legacy airlines are going to be faced with greater competition for their business and first class passenger market by new upstart ultra deluxe air service like Hillwood Airlines or the legacy airlines are going to have to implement their own budget airlines.

 

The dynamic between DFW and Love Field is unsustainable in the long run.  Love Field is both a monopolistic airport and an airport with a limited capacity.  DFW is unattractive to budget airline; and instead of airlines starting DFW service, they are leaving it for the low budget airport. 

 

American Airlines could lower its fares to make DFW attractive to budget minded flyers or Love Field reaches capacity making fares from there rise.  Neither AA or SWA are willing to budge; and Fort Worth flyers are left with the choice of high air fares (DFW) or travelling to Dallas for low air fares.  This is a situation that is comparable to neighborhoods that have to choose between a nice, affordable grocery store and a convenient store to buy food.  Its disgraceful.

 

The airline industry greatest growth is it budget airlines; and it is these types of airlines that are being created worldwide and sub-planting legacy carriers in the U.S. and Europe. 

 

Fort Worth is and will be a prime budget airline destination/departure market to mitigate the dynamic between DFW and Love.  Given a new airport without a dominant carrier to contend with, budget airlines would enter this large regional market.  I cannot think of any reason why budget airlines would not fly into Fort Worth other than the monopolistic control of AA and SWA at the two metropolitan airports.  The way to break up a monopoly is to provide more product (airports).

 

I am confident that a Fort Worth airport would be very successful if it was established; more confidant than those who think that it will be a flop.

[Dylan]

Spirit Airlines flies from DFW, and Spirit is one of the most budget-friendly airlines in existence.

[renamerusk]

Now I have never flown Spirit Airlines but the stories that have been recalled by those who have flown this airline are legendarily awful.  Recently (1 week ago), our neighbor flew Spirit to LA; and recalled a price for everything so onerous bordering on being fleeced that I will not consider Spirit as a choice when traveling.  Our friends from Florida also retold a story two years ago when they encountered hours of delay and route hoping just to get from FL to TX.

 

There is budget flying and then there is Spirit.

[Keller Pirate]

Anybody know if DFW has picked up any of the foreign carriers international flights during the Harvey shoutdown in Houston?

[JBB]

I follow a local aircraft spotters group on Facebook and the only foreign diversion of note from IAH that I've seen was an Avianca Embraer regional jet.  There was a Hawaiian Air A-330 on the ramp over the weekend that many thought was a diversion, but it was actually a charter for the visiting Oakland Raiders.  A Coast Guard C-144 made a fuel stop at DFW yesterday afternoon.  A handful of military helicopters made fuel stops at Alliance as well.  And there were several Navy T-6 and T-44 Navy training aircraft that evacuated from Corpus and Kingsville to the JRB and Alliance.  I believe most of them left today.  There were also 4 NASA T-38s from Ellington at the JRB.

[JBB]

I forgot to mention that 3 Marine Corps V-22s are staying overnight at Alliance in advance of the President's visit to South Texas tomorrow. 

[Austin55]

Wow Air launching their bright purple planes, only $99 to Iceland.

 

http://www.star-tele...e171472952.html

[JBB]

Icelandair announces service from DFW:

 

http://www.prnewswir...-300519331.html

 

And another note on the hurricane evacuation discussed above, Irma sent a ton of aircraft to safety at the JRB over the weekend: Navy P-8s and F-18s, Air Force F-22s, F-35s, F-5s, and C-130s, and NASA T-38s.  There's an aerial photo floating around of the base with all of the aircraft on the ramp.  It was impressive.  I believe it numbered somewhere around 75. DFW also provided parking for American planes evacuated out of Miami on one of the far west side taxi ways.

[Austin55]

Iceland is such a hot destination currently. It's very near the top of my list. 

[JBB]

For any fellow aviation nerds out there, DFW will get a small treat over the weekend. Delta flies the last scheduled 747 passenger flight for a US airline today, but the 4 remaining Delta 747s will continue to fly pro and college football team charters through the first few days in January before being scrapped Arizona. One will bring the Seattle Seahawks into DFW late Friday evening and depart late Sunday evening. There's a possibility it will be visible from the service road when it's pushed back from the terminal between flights. One could still come back with one of the Cotton Bowl teams, but I'm guessing this will be the last chance to see one. Too bad arrival and departure will both happen after dark. You can still see British Airways 747s for a few more years and a handful of cargo 747s at DFW, but this is the end of an era.

[hannerhan]

Thanks. 

 

This is a fantastic book on the 747 from the perspective of its head designer/engineer: https://www.amazon.c...n/dp/0060882425

 

Fascinating read. 

 

When it's all said and done the 747 will likely go down as the quintessential 20th century passenger airplane.  It's a masterpiece, both aesthetically and functionally, and as impressive as any building in my mind.

[Austin55]

Lufthansa upgrading their A330's to A340-600.  Exciting as the 340-6 is a fairly unique and rare plane, they are the only 4 engine single deck aircraft commonly flow and are longer than most 747 and A380 jumbojets. Only 67 are in service. 

 

http://www.dfwtower....hp?f=20&t=10979

[JBB]

They've flown A340s through DFW in the past, but I don't think it was on a regular basis.

 

Qantas is scaling back the A380 flights from daily to 6 days per week at some point this summer.  I've heard that there's a possibility that they could be swapped out for 747s or 787s in the not-too-distant future.

[hannerhan]

The A340 is indeed a cool plane.  I see them sometimes at LAX (Virgin Atlantic), but there are a lot of them at Heathrow and in Europe.  I know they're being phased out pretty quickly, so I'm surprised that Lufthansa would even make an announcement like that for so far out in the future.  It's very inferior to the 777 or A350 in terms of operating metrics.  

 

I think the 4 class version of the 777-300ER is my favorite plane, but I haven't been in an A350 yet. 

[elpingüino]

(Couldn't find a thread for the airport in general, so I thought this was the closest fit)

DFW Airport is opening a fourth hotel. A 125-room Hyatt House will open in 2020:
http://www.star-tele...e206871584.html

Curiously, the photo the Star-Telegram has with that article is a hotel that hasn't existed for 17 years. The Hyatt Regency West was located where Terminal D is now, and was torn down in 2001. Further discussed in posts 15-23 in a different thread: http://www.fortworth...554#entry108568

[Austin55]

I saw AA is adding Del Rio, Buffalo, Wilmington and Sarasota flights.

[jefffwd]

(Couldn't find a thread for the airport in general, so I thought this was the closest fit)

DFW Airport is opening a fourth hotel. A 125-room Hyatt House will open in 2020:
http://www.star-tele...e206871584.html

Curiously, the photo the Star-Telegram has with that article is a hotel that hasn't existed for 17 years. The Hyatt Regency West was located where Terminal D is now, and was torn down in 2001. Further discussed in posts 15-23 in a different thread: http://www.fortworth...554#entry108568

Where my high school prom was.

[elpingüino]

DFW will build two more perimeter taxiways over the next five years, so that fewer taxiing planes have to cross active runways.

https://www.star-tel...e215644850.html

[Austin55]

I've also heard they got a $100 million federal grants for a "rail line" but cannot find whether it was for TEXrail or Cotton Belt.

[txbornviking]

I've also heard they got a $100 million federal grants for a "rail line" but cannot find whether it was for TEXrail or Cotton Belt.

 

Maybe I'm an outlier, but $100million to be used in part on a spur to Centreport Station would certainly make things interesting

[renamerusk]

 

I've also heard they got a $100 million federal grants for a "rail line" but cannot find whether it was for TEXrail or Cotton Belt.

 

Maybe I'm an outlier, but $100million to be used in part on a spur to Centreport Station would certainly make things interesting

 

 

 I posted in the "Tex Rail" thread that the $100m is for Tarrant Express.  I think it would make things not interesting but flat out fantastic if the funds could be use to put in an all-in-one entry at the lower level of Terminal B that would allow arriving passengers to check-in baggage, clear TSA and access the Skylink to flights in the other terminals.

[elpingüino]

DFW is banning drivers (for hire or otherwise) from idling at the terminal. Two good articles:

Dallas Morning News: Taxi drivers sit idle at DFW Airport, waiting for fares that never come https://www.dallasne...ies-dfw-airport

Star-Telegram: There's curbside chaos at DFW Airport thanks in part to the surge of Uber and Lyft https://www.star-tel...e216453150.html

[Austin55]

AA launching direct flights to Munich and Dublin in June next year. 787-8 will be equipment.

[JBB]

The blurb I saw on Facebook said they are going to be seasonal flights, but that was not exactly an official source.

[JBB]

Air France is starting 3 weekly non-stop flights from DFW to Paris on March 31. Bumped up to 5 flights per week in the summer.

[youngalum]

Air France is starting 3 weekly non-stop flights from DFW to Paris on March 31. Bumped up to 5 flights per week in the summer.

AF is great airline!!

[tamtagon]

Hopefully the Air France deal will be successful and turn daily, year round.

 

For the past several years, I've wanted SkyTeam to ramp up an International hub at DFW. With Delta supplying the domestic connections, Air France, Air China Southern/Eastern and especially AeroMexico supplying the international customers.  

 

Rather than a threat to AA and oneworld, I see dual superhub at DFW as something of an inevitability the improves the prospects of the competitive alliances. The region, South Central US, is growing and is likely to grow for decades and Fort Worth-Dallas is the homebase of the SouthCentra. As Metroplex population nears 10 million, there should be little reason the big airport could not support two profitable superhubs. 

[youngalum]

You realize that DFW was once Delta's 2nd largest hub right?  They decamped and sadly will never return to its old glory. 

[tamtagon]

Ya, I know... my thinking with a dual hub DFW is primarily that overall growth in the DFW Major Trading Area (Ranally definition) and the South Central Region will reach a point that all three of the global alliances will have to have a major hub.  Star in Houston, oneworld in DFW, and that leaves SkyTeam which could maybe go to Houston or possibly San Antonio or Austin or maybe a new airport for both?? but unquestionably, DFW has the infrastructure and positioning to expand more quickly, less expensively and with the largest built in home-base of customers. Additionally, as the North Texas economy takes an ever bigger presence in global economy, it will be as important to the host as to the 'guests' that the Global Portal Aerotropolis has the most extensive accessibility to accommodate. 

 

The legacy carrier airfare wars of the past are not a thing anymore. A relative balance between the three remaining mega-legacy carriers and the array of lower cost carriers (lead by Southwest) has caused/is causing a shift of importance and relevance to the airport facility and location, away from which ever host city will help sponsor an airline hub. 

 

North Texas Chambers of Commerce and every other business group (except those desiring to support an ancient fortress around one hometown corporation) will encourage the big airport to provide for the competitive business environment. Having as direct flight opportunities to all or most oneworld AND SkyTeam world destinations is absolutely supportive to the interests of North Texas economic growth.  Delta would grow its DFW hub primarily to match international partners.

[hannerhan]

Ya, I know... my thinking with a dual hub DFW is primarily that overall growth in the DFW Major Trading Area (Ranally definition) and the South Central Region will reach a point that all three of the global alliances will have to have a major hub.  Star in Houston, oneworld in DFW, and that leaves SkyTeam which could maybe go to Houston or possibly San Antonio or Austin or maybe a new airport for both?? but unquestionably, DFW has the infrastructure and positioning to expand more quickly, less expensively and with the largest built in home-base of customers. Additionally, as the North Texas economy takes an ever bigger presence in global economy, it will be as important to the host as to the 'guests' that the Global Portal Aerotropolis has the most extensive accessibility to accommodate. 

 

The legacy carrier airfare wars of the past are not a thing anymore. A relative balance between the three remaining mega-legacy carriers and the array of lower cost carriers (lead by Southwest) has caused/is causing a shift of importance and relevance to the airport facility and location, away from which ever host city will help sponsor an airline hub. 

 

North Texas Chambers of Commerce and every other business group (except those desiring to support an ancient fortress around one hometown corporation) will encourage the big airport to provide for the competitive business environment. Having as direct flight opportunities to all or most oneworld AND SkyTeam world destinations is absolutely supportive to the interests of North Texas economic growth.  Delta would grow its DFW hub primarily to match international partners.

 

Yeah I think it's a matter of time before another group comes into DFW and competes with AA in the major international markets.  London in particular has gotten out of control over the past few years.  Coach tickets routinely cost $2k and business class is about $8k (less for longer trips of course, but many travelers are on business).  That's double what AA gets out of JFK (a highly competitive market).  They're making a mint on the London route, and I think the other international stuff does pretty well too.  

[renamerusk]

In recent days, story of financial news regarding American Airlines having been appearing in the halls of business that have not been good.

 

The stories tend to suggest that of the Big Three Carriers, American, United and Delta, American is most at risk for financial turbulence.  I fear and  think that this will have some influence on Fort Worth's aviation decisions in the future

[renamerusk]

Fort Worth to be the battleground for Logo food fight -

 

https://www.bloomber...s-suing-over-it

 

 

https://www.bloomber...go-boring-video

[JBB]

I cannot get my head around the idea that a government agency delves in the concept of creativity.

[renamerusk]

I cannot get my head around the idea that a government agency delves in the concept of creativity.

 

 Neither can I. 

 

 The Office of U.S. Copyrights is under the jurisdiction of the Library of Congress which is itself under the jurisdiction of a Joint Senate and House Committee.  This seems like it could possibly be an attempt from one of the committee members who has a grievance against American Airlines for who knows what reason.  Nonetheless, a lot of money in attorneys' fees, in appointing a jury,  and in court expenditures will be associated with this strange to say the least confrontation.

 

At some point doing or at the conclusion of the trial, we may learn more and hope to be able to make sense of it all.

[renamerusk]

In recent days, story of financial news regarding American Airlines having been appearing in the halls of business that have not been good.

 

The stories tend to suggest that of the Big Three Carriers, American, United and Delta, American is most at risk for financial turbulence.  I fear and  think that this will have some influence on Fort Worth's aviation decisions in the future

 

This does not sound good.  Is American Airlines management at fault and failing?

 

This also has me wondering how Fort Worth will act or not act as Meacham Airport has drawn more attention as a commercial passenger service airport v. American Airlines and DFW Airport.

 

This week, Dallas is opening a third garage at Love Field and shows that it is acting in the best interest of its citizens.

 

 Hoping that Fort Worth will look out for what is in the best interest of Downtown Fort Worth, local businesses and jobs for its citizens in North Fort Worth allow Meacham Airport to grow its potential.

 

The troubles of American Airlines always seem to find their way into the hallways of Fort Worth City Hall.

 

http://www.fortworth...9161a5c50e.html

[hannerhan]

 

In recent days, story of financial news regarding American Airlines having been appearing in the halls of business that have not been good.

 

The stories tend to suggest that of the Big Three Carriers, American, United and Delta, American is most at risk for financial turbulence.  I fear and  think that this will have some influence on Fort Worth's aviation decisions in the future

 

This does not sound good.  Is American Airlines management at fault and failing?

 

This also has me wondering how Fort Worth will act or not act as Meacham Airport has drawn more attention as a commercial passenger service airport v. American Airlines and DFW Airport.

 

This week, Dallas is opening a third garage at Love Field and shows that it is acting in the best interest of its citizens.

 

 Hoping that Fort Worth will look out for what is in the best interest of Downtown Fort Worth, local businesses and jobs for its citizens in North Fort Worth allow Meacham Airport to grow its potential.

 

The troubles of American Airlines always seem to find their way into the hallways of Fort Worth City Hall.

 

http://www.fortworth...9161a5c50e.html

 

 

American's stock is up 6% today, so I think that article clearly missed the true tone of the earnings information (which was basically upbeat re: future earnings/business).

[renamerusk]

 

 

In recent days, story of financial news regarding American Airlines having been appearing in the halls of business that have not been good...

The stories tend to suggest that of the Big Three Carriers, American, United and Delta, American is most at risk for financial turbulence. 

 

#1 - I fear and  think that this will have some influence on Fort Worth's aviation decisions in the future

 

 #2 - Hoping that Fort Worth will look out for what is in the best interest of Downtown Fort Worth, local businesses and jobs for its citizens in North Fort Worth allow Meacham Airport to grow its potential....The troubles of American Airlines always seem to find their way into the hallways of Fort Worth City Hall.

 

American's stock is up 6% today, so I think that article clearly missed the true tone of the earnings information (which was basically upbeat re: future earnings/business).

 

 

  I am happy to see American Airlines stock rise.  The stock market is hardly the ultimate barometer of the big picture.  I moved out of the equity market in 2016 and 2017 - too much volatility and jerking.  I believe that as of 10/24/18, all of the gains for this year have been erased; and except for the exhilaration of a wildly performing market, it would appear nothing has been gained but my own serenity.

 

 But to American Airlines, the concerns that I have is that it is not performing financially as well as are its main three rivals: Delta, United and Southwest.  I just do not know anything more than was what is being reported by analysis analysts.

 

However, I do have a gut feeling how Fort Worth views American Airlines and so the two concerns that I have still are:

 

 #1 - Fort Worth will become an enabler in the American Airlines downturns as Fort Worth's attachment to AA is much too close

 #2 - Fort Worth will make decisions that favor American Airlines instead of what may be the City's future opportunities

[hannerhan]

But to American Airlines, the concerns that I have is that it is not performing financially as well as are its main three rivals: Delta, United and Southwest.  I just do not know anything more than was is being reported by analysis.

 

It's an airline, and one could make a credible argument that airlines are just not good businesses.  That is a much longer conversation. 

 

But compared with the others that you mention, American is performing just fine.  Consensus over the past few years is that Delta has been the best airline in terms of the actual financial performance of the company.  United has always been considered the worst, with American in the middle.  Southwest is usually considered to be in its own category, which I actually think is unfair given their size...I think Southwest should be lumped in with the rest of them, and I think Southwest is actually the airline at a long-term disadvantage vs. the others due to their lack of long-haul capability.

 

This article lays it out fairly well with the big 3:

https://www.forbes.c...s/#33c93a223402

 

Of course it's a few months old, and with American's latest quarter one could argue that they are still firmly entrenched in the middle of the pack.

[renamerusk]

Fort Worth feels a sense of pride in American Airlines in the way that cities are known to be for their corporate residents.  Fort Worth by comparison has fewer corporations headquartered here than many of its piers and because of this; when American Airlines struggles, the City tends to do whatever it can to support the airline. 

 

I do want American Airlines to do very successful. American Airlines has a new look and I like it and the changes that it has made.

 

It is concerning , however, that after turning over its fleet through the replacement of their older jets with more efficient ones, presumably to control fuel costs, analysts are now warning that American Airlines is facing a fueling issue that the other carriers are not facing.   I hope that this is a passing issue and will feel some relief when it is no longer an issue.

[elpingüino]

This is from a few weeks ago but I don't think the forum has discussed it yet.

DFW Airport prepares for record growth as Terminal F decision looms
https://www.dallasne...-decision-looms

[JBB]

Interesting graphic courtesy of http://www.dfwtower....hp?f=20&t=11432



84.37% of the passengers at DFW flew American or American Eagle. And just glancing at the numbers, that number could increase in 2019 since Cayman, Ethiad, Westjest, Wow, and Icelandair are gone or on the way out.

[renamerusk]

American does not think Terminal F will be big enough.  They are continuing to expand both regionally and internationally.  

 

 

  Has AA maxed out at DFW Airport?  How many gates does it have and will it really need an additional 50 gates?

 

 Plugging in some official statistics for Atlanta Hartsfield and DFW the findings are:

 

  DFW    165 Gates

   ATL     209 Gates  

   ATL with 26% more gates.

 

   DFW    67,092,194 enplane passengers (ENP)

   ATL    103,902,992 enplane passengers

   ATL with 54% more enplane passengers

 

   DFW   406,619 passengers served per gate

   ATL     497,143 passengers served per gate

   ATL with 22% more passengers served per gate

 

   Perhaps these are not  the relevant statistics, but if DFW increased it gates by 30-40 to total 205 gates, is it reasonable to believe that it will reach the current numbers at ATL.  40 gates@406,619 equals an additional 16,264,760 ENP or added to the current ENP would be 83,356,954. 

 

  What AA and DFW Airport actually want is transition from the horseshoe terminal to a linear terminal; and to do so means asking for a new Terminal F which may not actually be needed but would be more efficient.

[Volare]

 

American does not think Terminal F will be big enough.  They are continuing to expand both regionally and internationally.  

 

 What AA and DFW Airport actually want is transition from the horseshoe terminal to a linear terminal; and to do so means asking for a new Terminal F which may not actually be needed but would be more efficient.

 

 

That's exactly right. They want to abandon one of the horseshoes in favor of a new F, which would not increase their total gate space by very much.

[renamerusk]

Mr. V., that is the conclusion that I was able to come too after reading that a Terminal F will not be big enough. 

 

To really satisfy AA, DFW Airport's kingpin, the airport will have to evolve over time to linear terminals.  After Linear Terminal F is built, Terminal B will be next to be changed into a linear terminal.  The entire process can be accomplished in phases by temporarily moving AA's B operations into Terminal E. 

 

By having linear gates instead of the half horseshoe gate model, AA can turn more planes in and out while using about the same amount of gates it currently has.

 

Some 10 years from now, AA will be concentrated in Terminal B,D,E and F, all which will then be simply known as American Airline Terminal.

[Volare]

Linear terminals don't allow you to park more planes. They actually allow less due to the wingtip clear zone issues. I frankly don't understand the fascination with them. I'm guessing it has to do with ancillary revenue more than actual gate space.

[Austin55]

How much flexibility does the already built skylink leave?

[renamerusk]

Linear terminals don't allow you to park more planes. They actually allow less due to the wingtip clear zone issues. I frankly don't understand the fascination with them. I'm guessing it has to do with ancillary revenue more than actual gate space.

 

 I transited through Atlanta only twice.  As I could see, the airport is designed like a row of linear barracks with plenty of wingspan room provided for aircrafts and their movements.

 

I am not sure what it is about the linear model, but Atlanta is the busiest airport in the U.S. and handles 55% more passengers through it than does the horseshoe model of DFW.  My assumption is that the shortest distance between two points is a linear line.  If you can move passengers faster between points, then you can push away from the gate faster and squeeze more planes into and out of a gate.  And to move passengers between gates, Atlanta has swift subways beneath the tarmac.  It is an efficiently operated airport.  This brings me to a radical suggestion: Redo DFW Airport to make it more efficient.

 

Atlanta Hartsfield Airport:

https://www.google.c...oiowE3oECAYQBg#

[Big Frog II]

I have heard Air France will be serving DFW by summer.

[Volare]

Atlanta, like Denver and Detroit have linear terminals. They are great for the airlines for moving baggage. They are horrible for airplane parking (witness the crazy jetways and parking angles they require to get the wingtips away from each other.)

 

 

The TSA requirements since 9/11 have ruined terminals like DFW as TSA likes to cram all the cattle thru a single security checkpoint (like Denver). Terrible for passengers. DFW you can be off your plane and to your Uber in less an 200 steps. In DEN, ATL, or DTW, you are looking at 30 minutes at the minimum until you are curbside.

 

As one who spends far too much of my life in airports around the world, I have yet to find a large airport that compares to DFW from a passenger perspective.

[renamerusk]

Atlanta, like Denver and Detroit have linear terminals. They are great for the airlines for moving baggage. They are horrible for airplane parking (witness the crazy jetways and parking angles they require to get the wingtips away from each other.)

 

 

The TSA requirements since 9/11 have ruined terminals like DFW as TSA likes to cram all the cattle thru a single security checkpoint (like Denver). Terrible for passengers. DFW you can be off your plane and to your Uber in less an 200 steps. In DEN, ATL, or DTW, you are looking at 30 minutes at the minimum until you are curbside.

 

As one who spends far too much of my life in airports around the world, I have yet to find a large airport that compares to DFW from a passenger perspective.

 

Volare, I am always thread cautiously when discussing aviation with you given your professional expertise. But I would pose this for you to consider:  Airports have two clients: the passengers and the airlines.  

 

Though the airport experience itself should be pleasant, as a passenger I am hoping to board and depart as promptly and hassle free as possible; and to collect my luggage in a likewise manner. Only when there is a stoppage of flights or weather delay would I care about the amenities of the airport, which charge exorbitant prices, and then I care about the abundance of clean restrooms.

 

The airlines are operating on a critical schedule whose objective is to have the shortest time spent on ground between gate arrival and gate push away.  If the airlines in Atlanta can arrive and depart 50% more passenger through its linear terminals, then their yield at Atlanta is apparently greater than the yield for airlines at DFW.

 

The greater pressure upon an airport will always come from the airlines needing an efficient operation more than the 45-90 minutes the passenger spends in the airport.