448 replies to this topic

[360texas]

I miss spoke.  Made edit change in my above comment.

[AndyN]

I am heading to Tokyo in February and will be taking a trip on the Tokkaido Skinkansen route of the Japan Central Railway. A little preview of the technology and equipment proposed for the Texas Central Railway.

[youngalum]

The train proposal will die a slow death in the next Texas legislature session from vocal rural GOP members.  Sadly, they have the numbers and the votes to make it happen.

[AndyN]

So, I proposed feeding pictures and video of my trip in February back to the transportation writer for the Star Telegram. They must have thought that was a great idea because they ended up sending a reporter to do the same thing. An article was published on the 8th featuring a wonderful picture of a bento box and several stock images of the system. I have not yet found a web link to the article.

 

The author also seems to have confused the Fort Worth sushi restaurant and Tokyo west side transportation hub, Shinjuku Station, with Tokyo Station which is the Shinkansen hub and is on the east side of town. If you find yourself in Tokyo looking for the high speed train, don't go to Shinjuku.

[youngalum]

Legislature is about to kill this project if the rural politicians have anything to do with it--this is according to the latest from the startle-gram

[renamerusk]

....the startle-gram

 

 Have to say that I am not a fan of ridiculing this newspaper; it smacks of "talk radio" gibberish. Hardly ever hear or read the same in regard to the other metropolitan newspapers.

 

But your remark about TCR and its fate is being fulfilled unfolding as predicted.

[youngalum]

Family business was in radio and TV, so it is habit to make fun of newspapers

[renamerusk]

Project moving into next phase.  My non-support for this project is consistent with my lukewarm support for the FWTA DASH connector. Like the DASH, it falls short of serving a key point - Fort Worth.  While it is evident that Fort Worth is not a priority for TCR, it continues to market this project as a link between Houston and North Texas.  Explain how a significant and distinctive part of "North Texas", Fort Worth can be left out and then expect support from it?

 

Houston to Dallas correctly describes this project; why not demonstrate the integrity to say so?

 

http://www.fortworth...7cb9cfdfb5.html

[Dylan]

The train won't even make it into downtown Houston. The Houston station will be near a suburban shopping mall well northwest of downtown.

[rriojas71]

Well we could use the line by taking the TRE to Dallas so in essence it does connect the North Texas "Area" to the Houston "Area".
Maybe this is just the start to get the ball rolling and if it is successful than they start looking to branch out in latter phases. Possibly to DT Fort Worth on the Northern terminus and DT Houston on the Southern.

[Austin55]

The train won't even make it into downtown Houston. The Houston station will be near a suburban shopping mall well northwest of downtown.

 

By far the most frustrating thing about this. Both stations are nonsensical. 

[johnfwd]

Well we could use the line by taking the TRE to Dallas so in essence it does connect the North Texas "Area" to the Houston "Area".
Maybe this is just the start to get the ball rolling and if it is successful than they start looking to branch out in latter phases. Possibly to DT Fort Worth on the Northern terminus and DT Houston on the Southern.

That may be correct, and I thought there was also a plan to build high-speed rail between Fort Worth and Dallas.

 

I think you have to be realistic from a cost perspective.  It would be nice if suddenly miraculously two parallel HSR systems materialize--one Houston to Dallas and the other Houston to Fort Worth.  Cost-wise, you have to do one or the other first.

 

Then again, I can't help harking back to earlier decisions that created the I-35W and I-35E interstate highway scheme for the very reason why we today believe Fort Worth should not be overlooked in an HSR scheme.  Does anyone know which "I" was constructed first?

[Jeriat]

 

The train won't even make it into downtown Houston. The Houston station will be near a suburban shopping mall well northwest of downtown.

 

By far the most frustrating thing about this. Both stations are nonsensical. 

 

 

Where's the Dallas station going to be?

[RD Milhollin]

 

Where's the Dallas station going to be?

 

 

 

The last I read it was envisioned in the northwest end of the Cedars area just to the south of the Convention Center and along the DART tracks. Several large tracts currently vacant there.

[Jeriat]

 

 

Where's the Dallas station going to be?

 

 

 

The last I read it was envisioned in the northwest end of the Cedars area just to the south of the Convention Center and along the DART tracks. Several large tracts currently vacant there.

 

 

Oh... well, that's not bad at all.

You have a direct link to DART Rail and it'll be in a re-developing neighborhood in the center of the city.

[Austin55]

 

 

 

Where's the Dallas station going to be?

 

 

 

The last I read it was envisioned in the northwest end of the Cedars area just to the south of the Convention Center and along the DART tracks. Several large tracts currently vacant there.

 

 

Oh... well, that's not bad at all.

You have a direct link to DART Rail and it'll be in a re-developing neighborhood in the center of the city.

 

 

 

Well kinda. It's still not quite adjacent to the convention center, which is across the huge pedestrian barriers of I30,  and not at Union Station, which would provide direct TRE connections for us.

 

It's like if an HSR station in Fort Worth was built in Butler. 

[renamerusk]

I'm taking both consistent and unpopular POV, but like the DASH Connector that falls short of its goal, TCR falls short in linking a significant segment of North Texas to Houston in way similar to how DASH falls short in serving the entire Cultural District.

 

TCR and its supporters should stop adding the gross numbers of North Texans to inflate its service area and, instead say Dallas inside of Loop 12.  This TCR will have a negligible impact for Fort Worth and its local economy and continues to not have my support or should not have the support of the City of Fort Worth.

[Electricron]

The proposed high speed rail station will not be immediately adjacent to DART's light rail line, it will be immediately adjacent to UP's rail line. Which means the cheapest and easiest solution, just like what is happening in Miami, is to extend the TRE to the HSR station area. All that will be needed to inter-connect the HSR line to North Texas in general, with Union Station's two platforms and two tracks for TRE nearby, is a single platform for TRE trains (with two tracks or even just a single track. 

TRE, BNSF, UP, DGNO, and Amtrak has trackage rights over these tracks already, but I expect the freight rail lines will want additional capacity installed (triple tracking?) and the HSR station platforms for the TRE will be paid by the TRE. 

 

And the same idea holds true in Houston as well. For years they have been planning and proposing commuter rail from Galveston through downtown Houston and extended northwest along the same freight rail corridor the HSR line will be built adjacent to. If the commuter rail line was ever built, adding commuter rail platform on its own tracks would be the cheapest and easiest way to inter-connect the HSR train to both downtown Houston and Galveston. 

 

Amtrak's Acela trains do not travel north adjacent to the Hudson River, or east to the eastern cities on Long Island. MTA North and MTA LIRR commuter trains do. The MTA subway lines don't extend that far out to the far suburbs. 

 

As the HSR line and train business improves into more profitability, maybe extending the HSR line further to Fort Worth and Galveston will become possible. But it's asking too much in my opinion to spend all that money up front before proving their business model works. After all, it's just a start-up private railroad company with limited start-up funds. They'll be lucky to raise the cash and financing to construct the Dallas to Houston HSR line, with both public and private sources of funds. Spending an additional $Billion or so in North Texas and another additional $Billion or so in Houston maybe $2-3 Billion more than they can get. 

[Dylan]

Didn't realize the Dallas station was going to be entirely south of 30. Earlier, they were planning a station over 30 itself.

Downtown Dallas is where the TRE and all four light rail lines converge, and has many hotels you could walk to. Downtown Houston is a transit and hotel hub as well.

HSR stations should only be located in large downtowns.

[renamerusk]

Didn't realize the Dallas station was going to be entirely south of 30. Earlier, they were planning a station over 30 itself.

Downtown Dallas is where the TRE and all four light rail lines converge, and has many hotels you could walk to. Downtown Houston is a transit and hotel hub as well.

HSR stations should only be located in large downtowns.

 

 TCR is operating on a shoe-string budget which in the long term will be one, if not the major,  of many factors contributing to its downfall.  Getting into either the downtown areas of Dallas or Houston is a cost prohibited bill.  As the saying goes "close only counts in horseshoes and grenades".

[rriojas71]

When I look at the route and the stations the word Boondoggle come to mind. Such a missed opportunity. Hopefully this is just the first phase and other future phases will make improvements to it. If not, then I think it may not be a successful venture.

[Electricron]

When I look at the route and the stations the word Boondoggle come to mind. Such a missed opportunity. Hopefully this is just the first phase and other future phases will make improvements to it. If not, then I think it may not be a successful venture.

Are Love Field, Hobby, Bush International, or DFW Airport boondoggles? All of these transportation terminals are further from downtown Dallas and Houston than the combined distance of Texas Central's proposed stations are. I'll admit they aren't located exactly in the center of each city, but as compared to all the airports locations, they're much closer. Travelers can and will find a means to get to them.

If you look worldwide, few train station locations are located within the downtowns or central business districts. Just about all of them are located a short distance away.

[rriojas71]

I hear what you are saying Electricon and my choice of the word boondoggle was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I was trying to pay homage to a blogger named Durango Texas who calls every big project in the area a boondoggle.

However airports and train stations are not apples to apples. Unlike airports, train stations don't need a large runway for take offs and landings and I don't know of any airports that are located downtown but I do know of train stations that are.

[JBB]

The key to making a high speed rail line like this even remotely successful is going to be making it more appealing and convenient than flying to business travelers. I'm not sure that either of the stops gets close enough to downtown to make that happen, especially in Houston.

I'll qualify this by saying that I'm not real optimistic that high speed rail happens in Texas any time soon and this discussion borders on the hypothetical.

[renamerusk]

....However airports and train stations are not apples to apples. Unlike airports, train stations don't need a large runway for take offs and landings and I don't know of any airports that are located downtown but I do know of train stations that are.

 

  Very true.

 

  The terminals, being set outside of downtown as they are, negates the major advantage that HSR has over air service - downtown to downtown connection.  HSR is an enormously expensive investment.  It is understandable to be skeptical about the future of this HSR and its ambition to do this through private funding.

[Jeriat]

I hear what you are saying Electricon and my choice of the word boondoggle was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I was trying to pay homage to a blogger named Durango Texas who calls every big project in the area a boondoggle.

 

 

He's still around?

[RD Milhollin]

Texas Central (High Speed) Railroad announces the Draft Federal Environmental Impact Statement, certainly a major step forward in addressing their business plan to connect Dallas and Houston:

 

https://www.texascen...pact-statement/

[Austin55]

Proposed High-Speed Rail Line’s Bryan—College Station Station Would Be 27 Miles East of Texas A&M

 

http://swamplot.com/...8/?es_p=5687268

 

The town has a population of 56

[txbornviking]

Not to be negative on a project I think has many positive merits, but if the stop is to be 27miles away from Tx A&M, I can't help but wonder why even both with the additional stop then?

[RD Milhollin]

There is some new content on the Texas Central Railroad website, some of it describing what life with the HS connection to Houston could be like:

 

https://www.texascen...the-fast-train/

[Electricron]

HSR operators, including Texas Central, believe HSR stations have a larger catchment area than light rail and commuter trains. If its as far as 30 miles or not we can debate, but its obvious they believe it is. Fort Worth to Dallas is over 30 miles, as is Galveston to Houston and Denton to Dallas. So Huntsville, Bryan, and College Station are within the Brazos Valley Station catchment area too.

How large do you think the catchment area for DFW airport is? Well, they think HSR station catchment area can be just as large too.

[renamerusk]

I'm glad to be a North Texan or a citizen of DallasFortWorth, Texas; whatever that means?

[Dylan]

The "North Texas" stop is in central Dallas, so they may as well refer to it as the Dallas stop.

[renamerusk]

The "North Texas" stop is in central Dallas, so they may as well refer to it as the Dallas stop.

 

Absolutely! Refer to it for what it is.

 

In order for the TCR  project to be credible, their numbers have to include the four most populated counties (Collin, Dallas, Denton and Tarrant) and presume that people outside of the Dallas Central will make the 30 mile trek to Central Dallas to board a train to the Northwest Harris County.  Oh by the way, to garner support in rural counties, add a station that is 15 miles from Bryan/College Station for riders wanting to travel to Houston which is only 65 miles away.

[Electricron]

Absolutely! Refer to it for what it is.

 

In order for the TCR  project to be credible, their numbers have to include the four most populated counties (Collin, Dallas, Denton and Tarrant) and presume that people outside of the Dallas Central will make the 30 mile trek to Central Dallas to board a train to the Northwest Harris County.  Oh by the way, to garner support in rural counties, add a station that is 15 miles from Bryan/College Station for riders wanting to travel to Houston which is only 65 miles away.

Yes, but folks in Denton, Plano, and Fort Worth can ride a train (sometimes two) for 30 miles or so to get to central Dallas.

Folks in Bryan/College Station don't have an exisiting low fare train service at all; which would be in competition with Texas Central. 

 

We're comparing apples to oranges here...

[renamerusk]

Well if this sounds familiar, then it should.   California HSR is faced with the same delays being caused by land owners.

 

India HSR

https://www.ft.com/c...54-33d6f82e62f8

[renamerusk]

.....In order to build the sort of track they would need for 200+ MPH service it must be flat and STRAIGHT. The flat just takes bucks, cuts where needed, and viaduct where needed. The straight is going to need eminent domain to pull off. That is usually, and constitutionally, a government power or function. If you are a massive energy corporation you get some of those powers......

 

But a private railroad is going to have a hard time getting land for their straight track ROW at reasonable/market prices.

 

.....If the organizers were willing to approach the state about a partnership in which the government would own the ROW and track, and the private concern could own and operate the trains, they might be able to construct this line for what they are projecting.....
 

 

Another blow and potentially the fatal blow -

 

https://montgomeryco...igh-speed-rail/

[youngalum]

 

.....In order to build the sort of track they would need for 200+ MPH service it must be flat and STRAIGHT. The flat just takes bucks, cuts where needed, and viaduct where needed. The straight is going to need eminent domain to pull off. That is usually, and constitutionally, a government power or function. If you are a massive energy corporation you get some of those powers......

 

But a private railroad is going to have a hard time getting land for their straight track ROW at reasonable/market prices.

 

.....If the organizers were willing to approach the state about a partnership in which the government would own the ROW and track, and the private concern could own and operate the trains, they might be able to construct this line for what they are projecting.....
 

 

Another blow and potentially the fatal blow -

 

https://montgomeryco...igh-speed-rail/

 

Doubtful it is a fatal blow.  If anyone thought a local partisan elected Judge is going to rule against the landowners is dreaming.  It will be appealed and maybe even to the Tx Supreme Court were the odds of a consumer verdict are less than 15% in this Court.  It is far from over.

[renamerusk]

Doubtful it is a fatal blow.  If anyone thought a local partisan elected Judge is going to rule against the landowners is dreaming.  It will be appealed and maybe even to the Tx Supreme Court were the odds of a consumer verdict are less than 15% in this Court.  It is far from over.

 

The Laws governing Eminent Domain (ED) is universal, whether rural or urban.  So I don't think it is a partisan issue.

 

 Until TCR is able to lay its first tracks, operate rolling stock and build terminals, it shall never gain status as a railroad company. Now, TCR is a nothing more than a conceptual plan.  Ceasing the tangible assets and land from their owners is impossible unless TCR can demonstrate that its actual business is being materially and irreconciably damaged by the refusal of these land owners to give up their property.

 

In any Court, it will be demonstratively provable that TCR is and has caused damage to existing landowners by creating uncertainty and reducing the value of the landowners property or the landowners and their ability to make financial decisions in the future.

 

I am not an attorney, but I as a juror would be oppose to the taking of personal property by a private company through the use of ED for profit. 

[AndyN]

The effects of the ruling are being way overblown. The judge ruled against summary judgement. That is not a final ruling.

 

As for ED authority, I would think it would be as simple as TCRy buying a 10th of a mile of track somewhere and an old diesel. Or if they want to get fancy, buy a business car to go with it.

[renamerusk]

The effects of the ruling are being way overblown. The judge ruled against summary judgement. That is not a final ruling.

 

As for ED authority, I would think it would be as simple as TCRy buying a 10th of a mile of track somewhere and an old diesel. Or if they want to get fancy, buy a business car to go with it.

 

 

 Just like TCR, that presumes that the landowners, whether they be ranchers or city dwellers are stupid.

 

 Just where is this 10th of a mile of track going to come from? Will this get TCR to be certified as a functioning railroad?  Railroads must have customers and they must serve interstate commerce.  If TCR serves only the customers in Houston and Dallas, it does not provide service to communities between those two terminals, how is it generally in the public good? 

 

You cannot be a flyover railroad; that service is provided by airlines.  TCR is a very long way from being certified as legitimate.

 

If TCR desires to build a HSR, it should purchase or negotiate with an existing railroad company; one preferably operating between Dallas and Houston.

[RD Milhollin]

 

The effects of the ruling are being way overblown. The judge ruled against summary judgement. That is not a final ruling.

 

As for ED authority, I would think it would be as simple as TCRy buying a 10th of a mile of track somewhere and an old diesel. Or if they want to get fancy, buy a business car to go with it.

 

 

 Just like TCR, that presumes that the landowners, whether they be ranchers or city dwellers are stupid.

 

 Just where is this 10th of a mile of track going to come from? Will this get TCR to be certified as a functioning railroad?  Railroads must have customers and they must serve interstate commerce.  If TCR serves only the customers in Houston and Dallas, it does not provide service to communities between those two terminals, how is it generally in the public good? 

 

You cannot be a flyover railroad; that service is provided by airlines.  TCR is a very long way from being certified as legitimate.

 

If TCR desires to build a HSR, it should purchase or negotiate with an existing railroad company; one preferably operating between Dallas and Houston.

 

 

I would be interested in seeing the basis for a few of your assertions about Railroads.

 

Another "Texas Central Railroad I was once familiar with ran from Dublin to DeLeon, Texas and carried mainly Peanuts. They ran an excursion train on Saturdays during the summer, a ride that featured some local businessmen dressed up as bad guys who rode up on horses and "held up the train"! They would go through the antique passenger cars and hollar loudly waving large revolvers then hand out candy to the kids on board. Quite a show.

 

Is the New TCR just a show? Time will tell, but since when does a railroad have to serve interstate commerce? Maybe a better question would be "Who certifies a railroad"? Can the state? Must it be the federal government; for an intra-state railroad? Except for the line it (leases/owns) through northern Mexico The Fort Worth and Western Railroad does not cross state lines. Does it "serve interstate commerce"? Can serving peanut co-ops and weekend family trips qualify as having customers? When trains were the primary means of passenger transportation between towns and cities, even in Texas, 125 years ago, did it matter that those trains did not stop in every hamlet within stone-throwing distance of the tracks? Those people/communities were not "being served". Privately owned railroads have always been able to determine their own operating criteria, just like airlines. Back in the day some railroads only carried coal from mine to steel mill, all owned by the same corporation. I'm not advocating vertical monopoly in this "new and enlightened age", but as historical and legal precedent, did that railroad have "customers"? As far as public good... how is that to be measured? I would speculate that there are more potential customers of a HS rail line in Dallas and Harris counties than all the residents of the counties in-between that would be touched by the proposed rails. If Dallas Love Field or Houston Hobby (or Fort Worth Meacham) airport boards wanted to build a longer runway to accommodate more or bigger jets and a pig farmer at the end of a runway didn't want to sell, what would courts be likely to rule as "being in the public good"? If the HSR can provide equivalent or better service between two cities (however that is measured...) should it be prohibited from doing so, based on highly local definitions of "public good"?  Should landowners in fear of losing their land be fairly compensated? Absolutely, the law is unequivocal on that point. 

 

Academically... if it was deemed necessary that TCR demonstrate that it was physically, and with customers, an actual railroad (I seriously doubt the interstate commerce requirement would go anywhere) perhaps they could negotiate with the two counties, the three cities, the state, and the Feds to put tracks on top of a viaduct constructed between Dallas and Fort Worth. Who builds the viaduct; open to negotiation (perhaps it could be called "a wall"). Elon Must apparently feels that this route could support his theoretical Hyper Loop, and if yes, it could certainly support a tried and proven (thousands of times a day in many countries in other hemispheres) HSR service. 

 

Practically, I don't think it should be difficult for a modern corporation to be certified as a railroad following legal precedent. Did the Texas and Pacific RR have tracks and rolling stock when it was federally chartered (the only Texas railroad at the time to be) to connect Marshall TX to San Diego CA? Why should a modern railroad be required to have this at startup? I don't understand why a company whose purpose is to build a railroad between Houston and Dallas should be required to buy a railroad between Dallas and Houston... What reason, purpose or logic would be behind that?

 

I am not in the railroad business, I'm not a railroad scholar, but do enjoy riding on them (excursion, vintage in the US, ultramodern efficient high-speed in Europe). I have a difficult time understanding why North Americans are so far behind the curve in modern surface transportation.

[renamerusk]

I would be interested in seeing the basis for a few of your assertions about Railroads.

 

Is the New TCR just a show? Time will tell, but since

 

(1) when does a railroad have to serve interstate commerce?

 

(2) Maybe a better question would be "Who certifies a railroad"? Can the state? Must it be the federal government; for an intra-state railroad? Except for the line it (leases/owns) through northern Mexico The Fort Worth and Western Railroad does not cross state lines. Does it "serve interstate commerce"?

 

(3) Can serving peanut co-ops and weekend family trips qualify as having customers?

 

(4) When trains were the primary means of passenger transportation between towns and cities, even in Texas, 125 years ago, did it matter that those trains did not stop in every hamlet within stone-throwing distance of the tracks?

 

(5) As far as public good... how is that to be measured? I would speculate that there are more potential customers of a HS rail line in Dallas and Harris counties than all the residents of the counties in-between that would be touched by the proposed rails.  If the HSR can provide equivalent or better service between two cities (however that is measured...) should it be prohibited from doing so, based on highly local definitions of "public good"?

 

(6) Should landowners in fear of losing their land be fairly compensated? Absolutely, the law is unequivocal on that point. 

 

(7) Academically... if it was deemed necessary that TCR demonstrate that it was physically, and with customers, an actual railroad (I seriously doubt the interstate commerce requirement would go anywhere)

 

(8) Practically, I don't think it should be difficult for a modern corporation to be certified as a railroad following legal precedent.

 

(9) Did the Texas and Pacific RR have tracks and rolling stock when it was federally chartered (the only Texas railroad at the time to be) to connect Marshall TX to San Diego CA?

 

 (10) I have a difficult time understanding why North Americans are so far behind the curve in modern surface transportation.

 

 

 Well that is the proverbial "kitchen sink" offense.

 

(1) Railroads interchange freight. Freight originate and is delivered across state and provential lines.  Can you imagine trains stacked up at state lines waiting to exchange rail cars...it would be ridiculous and efficient commerce would be impossible.

 

(2) My guess is DOT, the Federal Railroad Administration, Commerce for starters.  Yes. FWRR transports interstate commerce even as a switching RR.

 

 (3) Yes and Yes.  But both require that you own the tracks or that you are leasing ROW of track.

 

 (4) Every town put itself on the tracks...the railroad found the town creating a town center where goods were shipped in and out of the surround farmland.

 

 (5) You are speculating that sheer numbers ought to prevail over the individual's rights to control and hold onto their own property. Such thinking seems to find it perfectly justifiable for Dallas and Harris County Residents to actually cease land to satisfy a yet to be defined collective need at the expense of the dozens if not hundreds of landowners both urban and rural; and you base that upon a speculation.  Few would agree that property rights is only a "local public good"; that description ignores a fundamental Constitutional Right enjoyed by every citizen. And you should know the difference between a the board of a non-profit public entity (Municipal Airport) and the board of a for profit private entity...you are comparing apples to oranges. 

 

(6) No landowner should fear the taking of their property by a private individual or company.  No means no. When the landowner decides to sell their property, they can listed it with a realtor or sell it themselves. The timing and decision is their alone.  TCR asked, then intimidated and then sought civil actions against the landowners. Reminds me of the unending constant unwanted solicitation by individuals asking for me to sell my property to them; at some point they will take me to court.

 

(7) It was not an academic decision, it was a legal decision.  The judgment of the Court was that TCR is not yet a railroad; pretty much assuring that TCR is not going anywhere.

 

(8) See #7

 

(9) Railroads were given land grants to populate the Continental U.S.  The Government also funded the Lewis & Clark Exposition.  Land was given to settlers, Native American were placed on Reservations. You should know American History.  The Railroads were an integral part of our National Policy to connect the East and West Coasts.

 

(10) The U.S. had an excellent passenger rail network.  The automobile/oil/highway conglomerate lobbied against rail transportation, and the railroads put up little resistance preferring instead to transport the more profitable freight over passengers service.

 

When I graduated from college, I worked for a time for a legacy railroad company.  I was instructed and gained insight into many aspects of how a railroad operates. The American railroad industry is not like the state-run railroads of Europe, Japan, India or China.  The state heavily subsidizes their railroad(s) the way that we subsidize the highways.  We are behind other industrialized countries because we have a diverse intercity transportation network that involves, highways, airlines and higher rate of personal automobile ownership.

 

All that being said, I am having a difficult time understanding support for TCR, a private for profit company at the expense of private landowners who do not stand to benefit from a HSR but who are expected to surrender their land by compensation or if necessary by Eminent Domain.
 

[AndyN]

Here is a well-reasoned opinion on why the Texas Central Railway has imminent domain authority. As Craig Enoch was a Texas Supreme Court Justice, I think this reveals the direction the courts will take as the case bumps the ladder up in appeals.

 

http://www.madisonvi...g-forward,31199

[renamerusk]

Well reasoned?

 

I took the time to read his opinion.  I found nothing concrete about his assertion that TCR, LLC is a railroad, only that it aspires to become one.  There are ways to become what one aspires to be like attending medical school and acquiring the Medical Certification to practice medical care or attending law school and acquiring certification by passing a state bar exam.

 

Reasonable observers who come to the conclusion that TCR,LLC has not established the prerequisites (land ownership, acquire equipment, hired operational labor, etc. to even approach the State to gain a charter.

 

Without a charter, one can not be a railroad; and if one is not a chartered public utility or a state authorized agency, one can not assert eminent domain over property in the hands of their legal owner.

 

At the moment, TCR,LLC has been successful earlier in one court; and has been unsuccessful afterwards in another court.  Unless TCR,LCC can demonstrate some irrefutable evidence for it being a "railroad", TCR,LCC is going to have an impossibly difficult time ahead in the Courts.

[Electricron]

Well reasoned?

 

I took the time to read his opinion.  I found nothing concrete about his assertion that TCR, LLC is a railroad, only that it aspires to become one.  There are ways to become what one aspires to be like attending medical school and acquiring the Medical Certification to practice medical care or attending law school and acquiring certification by passing a state bar exam.

 

Reasonable observers who come to the conclusion that TCR,LLC has not established the prerequisites (land ownership, acquire equipment, hired operational labor, etc. to even approach the State to gain a charter.

 

Without a charter, one can not be a railroad; and if one is not a chartered public utility or a state authorized agency, one can not assert eminent domain over property in the hands of their legal owner.

 

At the moment, TCR,LLC has been successful earlier in one court; and has been unsuccessful afterwards in another court.  Unless TCR,LCC can demonstrate some irrefutable evidence for it being a "railroad", TCR,LCC is going to have an impossibly difficult time ahead in the Courts.

If  the evidence of being a railroad  company can be obtained by owning a railroad car and some track, all Texas Central would need to do is buy the TRE's last RDC from DART and the few feet of track it rests upon. Run a few excursions on either TRE, TexRail, DGNO, FWWR, KCS, BNSF, or UP tracks with the RDC and that should satisfy any operations requirements as well. Total expense- two million dollars - probably less than what they will have to spend on lawyers trying these cases in court.

 

They probably would not even need to buy the RDC, they could just lease it from DART for one day. and run it over the DART owned spur between Irving and Carrollton a few times at 10 mph like the DCTA did getting the RDCs to their line of operations from the TRE.  They could even live stream the event on Twitch and publish it on YouTube so every Texan in the state interested enough to see with their own eyes  that they are a real, true to life, railroad company. That should costs far less; maybe $100,000 or so for the entire campaign.

[renamerusk]

If  the evidence of being a railroad  company can be obtained by owning a railroad car and some track, all Texas Central would need to do is......

 

 To stop its charade...to stop creating uncertainty and financial hardship for property owners who remain in limbo the future.

 

I worked in my younger years for a bona fide legacy rail road company chartered in a crescent of states from Illinois, Texas, California and all states in between with huge staging yards, 100 of 1,000s in rolling stock, engines, stations and 100,000s of customers (businesses, mills, farmer coops, etc).  So though you think that a rail road is something simple chugging along at the pace of a turtle, please understand that it a complex and indispensible component of the GDP.  Railroads are chartered to serve each town and all commerce along their routes as a condition for their continuing existence and certification.  With this mandate, the railroads received and maintain the power of "eminent domain".

 

 TCR,LCC is a private company who would serve a meniscule subset of the local economy at its height of operations. It has not presented a case for itself to be chartered as a railroad.  To be fair, it is a form of specialized transit that it intended to serve two communities (Downtown Dallas and NW Houston) by passing dozens of towns along the way. This is what was needed for the establishment of DART and FWTA so that both could proceed with eminent domain, ROW and construction of the a transit system for the region.  The State/City, after a successful approval of the voters, could then charter TCR,LCC and it could proceed with its plans.

 

When TCR, LCC putst before the voters within its service area and receive the approval of the voters; it will not be a legitimate rail road. Neither the voters of Dallas or Harris County have had a say in the matter nor have the voters in the several counties that TCR,LCC proposes to transit through.  TCR,LCC is attempting to win at the Court Level what it should have won initially at the Voter Level.

 

Until it has popular support to back its attempt to cease land from property owners, the State of Texas can not be the insurer for TCR,LCC should its project be unprofitable and eventually ceases operations.  I would say this about American Airlines also.

[AndyN]

So, you're saying it takes a public vote to get a charter? What department did you work in for said railroad?

[renamerusk]

So, you're saying it takes a public vote to get a charter? What department did you work in for said railroad?

 

Yes. A charter is required; and it is more likely to be accepted by the public after a vote in which the public has had its say.  Given the past acrimony surrounding Trinity River Vision (TRWD), it would seem obvious that it will have harmed property owners if it fails; property owners who may never have their property returned to them.

 

And yes once again, due to its Congressional and State Charters, the property owners would have gotten assurance from the federal and state governments should the AT&SF failed, the lands would be returned to them.  What assurance can TCR,LCC give to the property owners that it could reimburse the property owners should it fail.  As a taxpayer, why should Tarrant County and similar county be forced to bailout TCR,LLC when it files Chapter 11 Bankruptcy.  If a electric power company fails, other companies provide services as an agreement for being chartered.  The land owners are wise enough to not fall for a con.

 

TCR, LLC is more a "bait and switch" scheme than it is a legitimate public utility.

 

Me, a Clerk/Agent among other multiple duties;   Said railroad, Atchison,Topeka and Santa Fe Rail Road (1859)

 

The Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe Railway, often referred to as the Santa Fe or AT&SF, was one of the larger railroads in the United States. Chartered in February 1859, the railroad reached the Kansas-Colorado border in 1873 and Pueblo, Colorado, in 1876. Wikipedia

[txbornviking]

"Fun" fact, I think all of the old TRE RDC's were sold to a group in Vermont looking to start a commuter line up there.

https://vermontbiz.c...muter-rail-cars