9 replies to this topic

[renamerusk]

Those financial institutions and the big buildings they're located in also brings lots of jobs to downtown Dallas; something that's still lacking in downtown Fort Worth, imo........

 

 At last count, 75% of jobs in DFW are on the "Dallas side".  

 

 

I don't think the Fed has anything to do with it.  It's a matter of the will to be in Fort Worth overcoming the talent deficit here vs. Dallas....

 

Going back to my original comment, you just have to see investors and funds with the WILL to be in Fort Worth.  If they plant a stake in the ground here, they can get the talent.  It's tougher vs. being in Dallas, but it can be done. 

 

 

 

.... It just seems obvious to me that Dallas will continue to lead in this area and by a large margin. And I'm fine with that....

 

Obviously, Fort Worth has and is holding its on against pretty significant competition; all the while maintaining a particular style of life that keeps people living here even if commuting elsewhere is necessary.

 

Not sure and hannerhan, you make me feel proud.

 

 

 

 Well, I certainly believe that this discussion deserves its own topic. Why? -  Because it is easy for Fort Worth to be overshadowed by a very robust and impressive neighbor; and for Fort Worth to be discounted by some.

 

 I give credit to our neighbor.  Its record is as good or better than any other metropolis in the country.  Fort Worth is different; and of course, it must be economically as it is practically impossible for two cities as close as Dallas and Fort Worth are to one another to be the equal. It would go against the way that  markets typically operate.

 

So, instead of rating Fort Worth to its satellite neighbor, I thought it would be interesting to rate Fort Worth to another market - Austin.

 

October 2016 BLS: DFW Employed 3,590,500 workers  (70% D; 30 FW); that indicates that 1,077,150 jobs were in Tarrant County.  I also think it is worth pointing out that in comparison, Austin total jobs for the same month is 1,070,200. 

 

As I have previously commented, I think Fort Worth is doing an incredible thing given that it is (1) within Dallas' sphere ;and (2), it does not have the incredible advantage of having a large state university, having  the seat of the state government, and having a large federal employment base.

 

This current story in the Fort Worth Business Press illustrates just how remarkable Fort Worth is:

 

  http://www.fortworth...36ae5f2e00.html

 

  

 

 

 

[renamerusk]

The Star Telegram and Dallas morning news...a story that ran a year or two ago.  If you read business news and see all the corporate relocations and expansions to Dallas, Plano, Richardson Irving, etc. , I don't think this has changed very much. 

 

 I think we can all concede to the 70/30 split as to where most of the jobs are in the region;though it can be argued that the Fort Worth effect is significant. 

 

There would not be a Las Colinas if the powers in Fort Worth had not been able to tug DFW Airport westwardly.  Consider for a moment had the international airport been built in Southern Dallas; would it be as successful as it is today; would Irving, Richardson, etc experience the growth in jobs, might things be different for South Dallas?  Would State Farm or all the corporate relocations in DPR&I have relocated to North Texas without DFW Airport?  These are all things that one can argue are the result of a Fort Worth effect in the region.  The numbers for Dallas look even better when the numbers include Fort Worth and it is these cumulative numbers that are generally decisive in pushing Dallas (DFW) up the food chain.

 

 If you read the Star-Telegram, the Morning News, the Business Journal and the Business Press, you will know that Fort Worth is generating jobs and relocations in the Alliance Corridor. 

 

Pertaining to D vs FW,  I believe that liking Fort Worth more than Dallas is about more than the opportunity at jobs. I believe that it can be better expressed as liking that there is a relatively slower pace in FW while at the same time liking the benefits of being next to a dynamic neighbor.  Nothing wrong with that. 

[eastfwther]

 

 

 

Pertaining to D vs FW,  I believe that liking Fort Worth more than Dallas is about more than the opportunity at jobs. I believe that it can be better expressed as liking that there is a relatively slower pace in FW while at the same time liking the benefits of being next to a dynamic neighbor.  Nothing wrong with that. 

 

I don't like repeating myself, but I've said before that if you were to stand on the rooftop patio of my Las Colinas office building and look eastward, you will see a row of office buildings from downtown Dallas all the way up the tollway to Frisco. And that doesn't include the Uptown, 635, Central Expressway, Richardson, East Plano and Las Colinas areas (Allen and Mckinney are developing office markets as well).  This has nothing do with liking  Fort Worth more than Dallas or vice versa. I work in the commercial real estate industry and I can tell you, there is no Dallas vs Fort Worth in this area because the two are not even comparable.  That's no slam against Fort Worth, but the Fort Worth/Arlington market and the Dallas/Irving/Plano office, job and real estate markets are simply worlds apart. 

[renamerusk]

....  This has nothing do with liking  Fort Worth more than Dallas or vice versa. I work in the commercial real estate industry and I can tell you, there is no Dallas vs Fort Worth in this area because the two are not even comparable.  That's no slam against Fort Worth, but the Fort Worth/Arlington market and the Dallas/Irving/Plano office, job and real estate markets are simply worlds apart.

 

 So taking you for your words, if you are not slamming Fort Worth, what is your issue?  No one, at least not me, is blind to the fact that Dallas is a dynamic center of commerce; and I get it.

 

 It seems to me that an expression of a personal preference of Fort Worth over Dallas is a reasonable one that  did not have to illicit a "look how fantastic Dallas is because of so and so, and so on and so on; or to imply how lackluster Fort Worth is.

 

 You can probably be grateful that you can stand on the rooftop of your Las Colinas office and see the skylines of the Dallas region because of a "little thing" called DFW Airport, yes that "FW" stands for and includes Fort Worth. And as such, some credit is due to Fort Worth since Las Colinas did not come about out of thin air. 

 

It is somewhat unflattering, IMO, to say that Fort Worth and Dallas are worlds apart.  If you will, lets start being unflattering: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago are a world apart from Dallas; and you might feel slighted if and when you hear that being said about Dallas from those metropolis.  Well Dallas now has a multi level department store downtown and that is progress; perhaps you have heard of 5th Avenue, Michigan Avenue and Rodeo Drive?

 

 I like Dallas; but I love and appreciate what makes Fort Worth a wonderful place to live; and together with Dallas, it a team that makes North Texas great.  Surprisingly, living in Fort Worth (East) appeals to many; yourself included. At the risk of repeating myself "there is nothing wrong with that".

[johnfwd]

The topic being jobs and employment, I like to think of communities partly in terms of where you live and where you work.  My understanding of the term "bedroom community" is within a metropolitan area such that people live in that community and commute to their jobs in or near the metro area.  Duncanville is a bedroom community in the Dallas metro area.  Burleson is a bedroom community in the Fort Worth metro area.

 

Having stated the above, if some guy tells me he lives in Fort Worth but commutes to his job in Dallas, I would tell him he's crazy and that he should be finding a home or apartment closer to Dallas.  I know long-distance commuting is common these days of interstate highways and commuter rail.  But I myself wouldn't want a round trip of 60 miles every work day.

 

The point here:  Fort Worth is not a bedroom community of the Dallas metro area, in my opinion.  It's an arguable point, of course.  Maybe a statistical study to determine the percentage of Fort Worth residents who have jobs closer to Dallas might show a large percentage?  But what does "closer to Dallas" mean in terms of employment?  Arlington? Grand Prairie?  Bedford?  Carrollton?   The U.S. Census Bureau conveniently labels our area the Dallas-Fort Worth Metropolitan Statistical Area for counting purposes.  Regional urban planners lump all the communities in North Texas together, particularly when planning transportation systems.

 

I like to think Fort Worth is its own metropolitan area, and that its population and commercial growth is occurring independently of Dallas.  I gauge that on the basis of relative growth of suburban communities.  An eyeball observation of both metro areas suggests to me that the rapid growth of Frisco is due largely to Dallas, but the rapid growth in the Aledo-Weatherford corridor is due largely to Fort Worth.  And If you try to argue to me that the rapid growth of those communities west of Fort Worth is because of Dallas, I would reply that that's a stretch.  Of course, Aledo or Burleson may be growing at a slower pace than, say, Frisco.  But that's because Fort Worth is a smaller metro area than is Dallas.

[eastfwther]

 

....  This has nothing do with liking  Fort Worth more than Dallas or vice versa. I work in the commercial real estate industry and I can tell you, there is no Dallas vs Fort Worth in this area because the two are not even comparable.  That's no slam against Fort Worth, but the Fort Worth/Arlington market and the Dallas/Irving/Plano office, job and real estate markets are simply worlds apart.

 

 So taking you for your words, if you are not slamming Fort Worth, what is your issue?  No one, at least not me, is blind to the fact that Dallas is a dynamic center of commerce; and I get it.

 

 It seems to me that an expression of a personal preference of Fort Worth over Dallas is a reasonable one that  did not have to illicit a "look how fantastic Dallas is because of so and so, and so on and so on; or to imply how lackluster Fort Worth is.

 

 You can probably be grateful that you can stand on the rooftop of your Las Colinas office and see the skylines of the Dallas region because of a "little thing" called DFW Airport, yes that "FW" stands for and includes Fort Worth. And as such, some credit is due to Fort Worth since Las Colinas did not come about out of thin air. 

 

It is somewhat unflattering, IMO, to say that Fort Worth and Dallas are worlds apart.  If you will, lets start being unflattering: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago are a world apart from Dallas; and you might feel slighted if and when you hear that being said about Dallas from those metropolis.  Well Dallas now has a multi level department store downtown and that is progress; perhaps you have heard of 5th Avenue, Michigan Avenue and Rodeo Drive?

 

 I like Dallas; but I love and appreciate what makes Fort Worth a wonderful place to live; and together with Dallas, it a team that makes North Texas great.  Surprisingly, living in Fort Worth (East) appeals to many; yourself included. At the risk of repeating myself "there is nothing wrong with that".

 

If you want to believe Las Colinas exists because of  Fort Worth that's fine and I don't think it's unflattering at all to say that from a business prospective,  Dallas and Fort Worth are worlds apart..it's just true and doesn't mean Fort Worth is bad place to live or lacking. And in lots of ways, Chicago, L.A. and NY are worlds apart from Dallas.  That's no slight to Dallas; they're just very different cities.  And that was my point; not everything in Dallas and Fort Worth are comparable (especially from a business standpoint).  And that has nothing to do with whether I live in Fort Worth or not.  And I now live in Fairmount btw.  I don't know what your issue is as I'm only talking about a office market/business comparison.  You're the one who keeps wanting to throw quality of life into it.  I'm not talking about that at all as that is totally subjective and I don't' care about subjective comparisons. You can come by my office and I can easily run some numbers 

for you to prove my point which is: considering  new and existing office space, office space consumption, 

corporate relocations, job creations and commercial land transactions, the D side of DFW is a totally different world than the FW side; that's all.  If you want to take that as some sort of slight, that's your issue.   But in regards to office markets and development, I can do this all day, because I do this all day.  

[renamerusk]

 

I have never cared for the nouveau riche glittering riches aesthetic that permeates Dallas anyway. I think of Fort Worth as a classier, more subtle, restrained and nuanced city that doesn't always value style over substance. Let them have their banks. We have the arts!

Those financial institutions and the big buildings they're located in also brings lots of jobs to downtown Dallas; something that's still lacking in downtown Fort Worth, imo. I was in downtown Dallas before the holiday ( a new multi-level department store was having its opening)   and what's going on down there is pretty incredible.  At last count, 75% of jobs in DFW are on the
"Dallas side".  

 

 

 

If you want to believe Las Colinas exists because of  Fort Worth that's fine and I don't think it's unflattering at all to say that from a business prospective,  Dallas and Fort Worth are worlds apart..it's just true and doesn't mean Fort Worth is bad place to live or lacking. And in lots of ways, Chicago, L.A. and NY are worlds apart from Dallas.  That's no slight to Dallas; they're just very different cities....

 

 As you can see and read for yourself, the subject of jobs and who has the most  was most certainly introduced by you; a reaction to Not Sure remarks about Fort Worth being "classier".  The job issue was not mine; the lack of jobs downtown was not my issue; weren't they yours. We all agree that Dallas is a real estate goldmine. I don't have an issue with that either.

 

Yes, I believe that Las Colinas exists primarily because of its proximity to DFW Airport, otherwise, Garland would be the home of 100's of regional and national corporations. But Garland isn't and Irving is.  And yes, it does have to do with Fort Worth and its original airport becoming today's DFW Airport; that then brought the relocation of American Airlines to North Texas and then that made it possible for corporations to relocate here because of the excellent domestic and international air service.   Irving benefited like none other. Yeah, Fort Worth is due some credit.

 

If a household bickers over who brings in the most income, then you will have discord and a feeling of a lack of respect within a household.  I don't think it is fruitful to argue that point.  I repeat that the region has benefited from the contributions from either side.  It is good to see that you can recognize that cities can be very different; and that the difference, if I may say, is how people can and do make their preferences.

[eastfwther]

 

 

I have never cared for the nouveau riche glittering riches aesthetic that permeates Dallas anyway. I think of Fort Worth as a classier, more subtle, restrained and nuanced city that doesn't always value style over substance. Let them have their banks. We have the arts!

Those financial institutions and the big buildings they're located in also brings lots of jobs to downtown Dallas; something that's still lacking in downtown Fort Worth, imo. I was in downtown Dallas before the holiday ( a new multi-level department store was having its opening)   and what's going on down there is pretty incredible.  At last count, 75% of jobs in DFW are on the
"Dallas side".  

 

 

 

If you want to believe Las Colinas exists because of  Fort Worth that's fine and I don't think it's unflattering at all to say that from a business prospective,  Dallas and Fort Worth are worlds apart..it's just true and doesn't mean Fort Worth is bad place to live or lacking. And in lots of ways, Chicago, L.A. and NY are worlds apart from Dallas.  That's no slight to Dallas; they're just very different cities....

 

 As you can see and read for yourself, the subject of jobs and who has the most  was most certainly introduced by you; a reaction to Not Sure remarks about Fort Worth being "classier".  The job issue was not mine; the lack of jobs downtown was not my issue; weren't they yours. We all agree that Dallas is a real estate goldmine. I don't have an issue with that either.

 

Yes, I believe that Las Colinas exists primarily because of its proximity to DFW Airport, otherwise, Garland would be the home of 100's of regional and national corporations. But Garland isn't and Irving is.  And yes, it does have to do with Fort Worth and its original airport becoming today's DFW Airport; that then brought the relocation of American Airlines to North Texas and then that made it possible for corporations to relocate here because of the excellent domestic and international air service.   Irving benefited like none other. Yeah, Fort Worth is due some credit.

 

If a household bickers over who brings in the most income, then you will have discord and a feeling of a lack of respect within a household.  I don't think it is fruitful to argue that point.  I repeat that the region has benefited from the contributions from either side.  It is good to see that you can recognize that cities can be very different; and that the difference, if I may say, is how people can and do make their preferences.

 

Your 100% correct...my original comments regarded office space and jobs and that's all I wanted to talk about. The airport, and why there is a Las Colinas, and household bickering and something about if Garland was near DFW airport or whatever it is your're talking about (I have no idea at this point) doesn't change the fact that there is tons more office space, office buildings and jobs on the Dallas side.   So unless you have some evidence to dispute that FACT, most everything else you've said in this last post is opinion, conjecture, subjective and moot to my point. 

[renamerusk]

EastFWorther, its becoming harder to quote you; so many layers of multiple quotes in response.  I will quote directly -

 

"Your 100% correct...my original comments regarded office space and jobs and that's all I wanted to talk about. The airport, and why there is a Las Colinas, and household bickering and something about if Garland was near DFW airport or whatever it is your're talking about (I have no idea at this point) doesn't change the fact that there is tons more office space, office buildings and jobs on the Dallas side.   So unless you have some evidence to dispute that FACT, most everything else you've said in this last post is opinion, conjecture, subjective and moot to my point". 

 

Yes, Las Colinas is absolutely a result of the Carpenter Family's desire to take advantage of the newly opened DFW Airport by creating a community of businesses and residences. And of course, DFW is a result of Fort Worth and Dallas striking a compromise.   If you are ready to dispute this and other facts that the Mid-cities, Grapevine, Flower Mound, Coppell and Irving were the direct beneficiaries of the opening of DFW Airport.  Irving, more so than others; it will be some very interesting debunking by that someone believing otherwise.  It may even be deserving of its own topic.

 

 As an administrative analyst for the City of Irving during the decade following the opening of DFW Airport I ws witness to Irving became flooded in revenues and development fees that poured in from the areas north of Airport Freeway.

 

If anyone is disputing the fact that there are tons of more office space/jobs etc, on the Dallas side, it isn't me; and you will not find me making such a statement. 

 

What statement that I do make is that the Fort Worth side of this equation is being underappreciated. 

 

If you wish to believe that one side of the equation is responsible for nearly everything that happens in North Texas and if that fits your attitude, then it not my wish to change how you see things, but I will point out  such a fallacy when required.  Nor does your attitude change the fact that Fort Worth is an important contributor to the overall economy of North Texas, be it by today's standards or be it by the fact that Fort Worth has always exerted its own style of influence upon the region that has benefited not only itself but the East Side of the Metroplex; not to be dished as something from an lesser world.  I looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics; Fort Worth is ahead of Austin and just behind San Antonio in total jobs; and this while being next to the second biggest job center in Texas;  30% turns out not to be so shabby.

 

In the end, I still prefer Fort Worth to Dallas, jobs and real estate noted.

 

One final thought.  I hope the best for you in your endeavors; and like you, I am impressed with the vitality of Dallas.  There is no profit in envy.

 

[eastfwther]

 

EastFWorther, its becoming harder to quote you; so many layers of multiple quotes in response.  I will quote directly -

 

"Your 100% correct...my original comments regarded office space and jobs and that's all I wanted to talk about. The airport, and why there is a Las Colinas, and household bickering and something about if Garland was near DFW airport or whatever it is your're talking about (I have no idea at this point) doesn't change the fact that there is tons more office space, office buildings and jobs on the Dallas side.   So unless you have some evidence to dispute that FACT, most everything else you've said in this last post is opinion, conjecture, subjective and moot to my point". 

 

Yes, Las Colinas is absolutely a result of the Carpenter Family's desire to take advantage of the newly opened DFW Airport by creating a community of businesses and residences. And of course, DFW is a result of Fort Worth and Dallas striking a compromise.   If you are ready to dispute this and other facts that the Mid-cities, Grapevine, Flower Mound, Coppell and Irving were the direct beneficiaries of the opening of DFW Airport.  Irving, more so than others; it will be some very interesting debunking by that someone believing otherwise.  It may even be deserving of its own topic.

 

 As an administrative analyst for the City of Irving during the decade following the opening of DFW Airport I ws witness to Irving became flooded in revenues and development fees that poured in from the areas north of Airport Freeway.

 

If anyone is disputing the fact that there are tons of more office space/jobs etc, on the Dallas side, it isn't me; and you will not find me making such a statement. 

 

What statement that I do make is that the Fort Worth side of this equation is being underappreciated. 

 

If you wish to believe that one side of the equation is responsible for nearly everything that happens in North Texas and if that fits your attitude, then it not my wish to change how you see things, but I will point out  such a fallacy when required.  Nor does your attitude change the fact that Fort Worth is an important contributor to the overall economy of North Texas, be it by today's standards or be it by the fact that Fort Worth has always exerted its own style of influence upon the region that has benefited not only itself but the East Side of the Metroplex; not to be dished as something from an lesser world.  I looked at the Bureau of Labor Statistics; Fort Worth is ahead of Austin and just behind San Antonio in total jobs; and this while being next to the second biggest job center in Texas;  30% turns out not to be so shabby.

 

In the end, I still prefer Fort Worth to Dallas, jobs and real estate noted.

 

One final thought.  I hope the best for you in your endeavors; and like you, I am impressed with the vitality of Dallas.  There is no profit in envy.

 

 

And this is the point you're not getting:  I made no comment about DFW airport or its influence, no comment about why  or if FW is being underappreciated, no comments about who benefits from who,  no comments about whether or not anyone prefers to live in Fort Worth over Dallas. I didn't even say the 30% of jobs on the Fort Worth side was a bad thing..it's just a fact. So, you're right, all these other issues probably do need their own thread.  I merely stated the FACT that there is more office space/jobs on the Dallas side and that Fort Worth and Dallas are two completely different office markets.  How these facts came to be is really not of much interest to me as even you used the word "probably" in your discussion of Las Colinas.  That tells me that some of that information is probably opinion too.  I live in Fort Worth and love living here, but because of my job, I'm very aware that the office market is very very different in Dallas than here.  That doesn't make me feel insecure about Fort Worth as I am looking at it merely from my business standpoint.  And somehow that has turned into a ton of issues I didn't bring up.  If  you're not disputing my original comments (as you said) I have no idea of what you're disputing.  I do appreciate the history-as-you-see-it lesson of DFW airport's influence on the surrounding burbs.  But since I have to deal with the present day DFW office market, once again, the way you believe it came to be is of little use or interest to me.