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Texas Central Railway - Proposed Bullet Train


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#401 redblock

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 11:59 PM

"Fun" fact, I think all of the old TRE RDC's were sold to a group in Vermont looking to start a commuter line up there.
https://vermontbiz.c...ter. -rail-cars


The Vermont purchased 12 0f the 13 RDCs that DART owned (DART kept one for historic purposes, it is still at the TRE yard in Irving). Only 10 of the RDCs were moved to Vermont. Two of the cars were sold to Portland, Oregon and shipped directly there.

#402 renamerusk

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 10:22 PM

....Texas Central Railway has imminent domain authority. As Craig Enoch was a Texas Supreme Court Justice, I think this reveals the direction the courts will take as the case bumps the ladder up in appeals.....

 

 

 

.... if one is not a chartered public utility or a state authorized agency, one can not assert eminent domain over property in the hands of their legal owner.

...

Total expense- two million dollars - probably less than what they will have to spend on lawyers trying these cases in court. :)

 

 Texas State Senate having none of this TCR Spearhead -

 

FWBP - "Senate encouraging law suits from land owners..."  http://www.fortworth...4c9f57d19b.html



#403 ACE

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 09:44 AM

https://www.citylab....t-route/587743/

The battle against the HSR line is getting really granular as the holdouts try what they can to stop the project. At the moment, they are quibbling over the legal language of "railroad company", but to me, the real threat is in the last paragraph:

 

 

 

It is one of just many bills filed in this year’s legislative session, mostly by rural Republican lawmakers, aimed at dragging down or outright terminating the high-speed rail project by creating additional regulatory requirements. Texas Central has dodged other such attempts in the past, but this year, there are more than ever, according to Workman.

 

I think that the railroad lobby combined with DFW and Houston will outweigh the efforts of the farmers, but I won't believe that the line is complete until I'm riding it myself.



#404 Austin55

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 09:48 AM

The two metros combine for half of the population and 2/3 the GDP of the entire state. This project would benefit everyone.


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#405 renamerusk

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 11:38 AM

  I think that the railroad lobby combined with DFW and Houston will outweigh the efforts of the farmers, but I won't believe that the line is complete until I'm riding it myself.

 

 

 The two metros combine for half of the population and 2/3 the GDP of the entire state. This project would benefit everyone.

 

I remain unconvinced that this particular project is a benefit to Texas, unless one excepts that Texas is Dallas Proper and Houston Proper.  I don't understand, from a Fort Worth perspective, how there is such a thing as a "DFW" railroad lobby; particularly when the lobby is not Fort Worth oriented.  Using population numbers to bolster the potential ridership and beneficiaries is a switch and bait scheme.

 

If you can argue convincingly that the Dallas Convention Center/ associated hotels are a benefit to Fort Worth, than expanding the Fort Worth Convention is irrelevant to Downtown Fort Worth, since the DCC theoretically benefits everyone; then maybe, you can begin to have my attention.   However,  I am guessing that hotel bookings in Downtown Fort Worth do not spike from the convention center business in a city 30 miles away; thus it will take a tremendous  amount of convincing.

 

TCR will benefit Downtown Dallas at 98%, little, if any development  at all, will redown to Fort Worth; nor will any benefit come to the rural communities that will be by-passed along the route. 

 

Philosophically, I am neither for or against the TCR project. For me as a resident of Tarrant County/Fort Worth, it is a non-issue as I am unconvinced that it will have a direct impact that will be positive upon my City, other than of course widening the economic gap between Fort Worth and Dallas.  For me, it is and will always be my position to support projects that directly benefit the City of Fort Worth.

 

I will be squarely behind a Texas HSR that directly connects Fort Worth, El Paso, Austin, San Antonio and yes Dallas and Houston in one network.  A statewide HSR is the correct approach to take and believe that the citizens in Fort Worth, Arlington and Tarrant County should focus their support on a State Network.



#406 ACE

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 12:36 PM

I do see your point, renamerusk, but I think we need to approach this issue incrementally. 

 

If the Dallas/Houston connection can be successful, however you define "success", then it would make sense to expand the network to say, Fort Worth / Ausitin / San Antonio, or whatever.

 

I agree that a single stretch of line connecting two hubs is not a "network", but I do think that the calculus and metrics for success on this line will dictate whether or not Texas Central or some other entity decides to expand to other metro areas, which is why I'm so hopeful that this works out.



#407 AndyN

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 04:01 PM

I'm not sure if their interactive proposed ROW map has been mentioned here yet, but I found it interesting.

 

https://www.texascen...8KGZOehROnzy5QY


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#408 renamerusk

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Posted 29 April 2019 - 05:11 PM

I do see your point, renamerusk, but I think we need to approach this issue incrementally. 

 

If the Dallas/Houston connection can be successful, however you define "success", then it would make sense to expand the network to say, Fort Worth / Ausitin / San Antonio, or whatever.

 

I agree that a single stretch of line connecting two hubs is not a "network", but I do think that the calculus and metrics for success on this line will dictate whether or not Texas Central or some other entity decides to expand to other metro areas, which is why I'm so hopeful that this works out.

 

But TCR is not interested in an incremental approach; and has stipulated that it is only interested in the Dallas/Houston connection.

 

Entering into the Southern Sector of Dallas will be a cake walk compared to cutting through the more highly appraised land and improvements on the property between Fort Worth and Dallas.  TCR does not have the capital to take on that battle.



#409 ACE

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 07:54 AM

I might be more optimistic I guess. I don't see how a line wouldn't be built, if the Dallas and Houston one was made. I think we'll have to disagree on this one, because it might not be TC or it might, but there's no way Austin will want to be left out for long. 

Although watch them build an Austin/Houston line first...



#410 renamerusk

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 11:25 AM

I might be more optimistic I guess. I don't see how a line wouldn't be built, if the Dallas and Houston one was made. I think we'll have to disagree on this one, because it might not be TC or it might...

 

Go back to Post#1 in this thread.  It demonstrates how TCR has done  a complete "switch and bait".  It has also been publicly stipulated numerous times during the past 2-3 years by TCR that it WILL NOT extend the Dallas to Houston Line to Fort Worth.

 

The State of Texas has and maybe still in negotiation with a European HSR Group (France/Germany) who is interested in building a public/private HSR network that will include cities along the I35 Corridor with connection to Houston.

 

Fort Worth and Dallas will be apart of the Euro HSR Project.

 

Activism, and not optimism, has been historically the surest way for Fort Worth to be included major transportation infrastructure.  You can be grateful that Fort Worth insisted that there be an airport between it and Dallas, otherwise, the regional airport could have easily been built in Southern Dallas County; or for that matter, the possibility of not having an I35W; and instead of the originally planned sole I35 thru Dallas.



#411 roverone

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Posted 30 April 2019 - 12:01 PM

I think your mention of I35W / 135E is very important here.  I'm sure this has come up already in the 9 pages of this thread that I have not read lately, but the whole point of high speed rail is to let it be high speed and limit the stops on any one run.  It seems like the right way to do this is exactly like I35 -- a giant Y -- and leave the local Fort Worth <-> Dallas part to other services.  These are not areas that I know too much about, but it seems like the cost to build and the speed restrictions would make the cross metroplex part be slow and expensive.  I just wish we could share the southern track at say, Hillsboro or just north of their, just like I35 and have actual high speed rail from Fort Worth to places south.  Math has a name for these things: "Steiner Minimal Trees" -- it would be optimized on the combination of track cost and travel speed in whatever mix.


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#412 AndyN

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 11:00 PM

The Dallas Bullet Train is getting closer to construction. https://www.nbcdfw.c...-565182232.html  I am so looking forward to this. Heading back to Japan in February for another sampling of premium transportation. Might try to get a ride on the maglev one they are testing.


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#413 Austin55

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 10:41 AM

Received federal approval, construction to begin next year.

https://www.texastri...gh-speed-train/



#414 roverone

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 11:31 AM

These projects always seem so expensive to me -- this is on the order of $1500 per human in DFW + Houston metro.

 

When you start to think about how that adds up if you just add the money for each of the members of families on your street, or in your neighborhood, you realize how very expensive they are.

 

Hopefully they do studies to show how this solution will add more into the economy than other uses of the same amount of money.



#415 Electricron

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Posted 21 September 2020 - 08:42 PM

These projects always seem so expensive to me -- this is on the order of $1500 per human in DFW + Houston metro.

 

When you start to think about how that adds up if you just add the money for each of the members of families on your street, or in your neighborhood, you realize how very expensive they are.

 

Hopefully they do studies to show how this solution will add more into the economy than other uses of the same amount of money.

If they are spending private money vs government funds, every penny spent building it and running it will be a positive contribution to the local economy. In case you missed it the first time, I wrote every penny. There is no way to get more than 100% when only private enterprise is spending the money. 

 

Lets look at from Texas Central economical point of view. 

Costs have doubled in the last 7 years up to $20 billion, some suggest it will cost up to $30 billion by the time they finish building it. Let's assume the middle dollar amount for our exercise in mathematics, the real number will either be half as much or 50% higher - only time will tell what the actual number will be. 

 

Each TGV trainset will have a passenger capacity around 400 passengers. 

Let's assume the train runs half full with $100 fares for simplicity purposes.

That's the equivalent of just rather small one passenger jet.

That means each trains will earn $20,000 in fares. 

They plan to run a train in each direction every half hour, so that is 4 trains per hour.

So they collect $80,000 per hour in fares.

Lets assume they only start trains for 12 hours each day. 

That's $960,000 per day. 

Lets keep the math simple and suggest earning a cool $1 million per day.

That would add up to $365 million per year.

In 10 years, that would be $3.65 billion per decade.

Now down to some division, slightly harder math.

$20 billion / $3.65 billion/decade = 5.479 decades, ort 54.79 years. 

That's less than 55 years. 

Even if the construction costs have doubled, they could pay for it in 110 years.

Or if they keep the construction costs down, but only charged $50 per fare, it is still 110 years.

Or if they actually fill the trains keeping the construction costs down, they could pay for it in 27.5 years.

 

Of course financing is not that simple, there are labor, maintenance, taxes, interests, insurance, and advertising costs to consider. 

 

I'm not going to suggest here and now they will actually earn a profit, but obviously they think they can or they would not be proposing to build it.  Only time will tell. 



#416 tamtagon

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 05:23 AM

^Over the years, Texas Central has outlined profit coming from ancillary station development as a revenue source. Similar to a convenience store in which gasoline sales function to bring customers into a large store with cold drinks, quick serve meals, novelty items etc, the railroad company partnerships will rent hotel rooms and sell anything and everything the train passenger may want/need.

 

With this understanding, Texas Central bought the 45 acre Northwest Mall site in Houston and entered a partnership with Matthews Southwest a majority land owner of the Dallas station location. Airlines do not make money from all the retail activity at an airport, but the railroad company will make money from all the retail activity at the train station.



#417 roverone

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Posted 22 September 2020 - 06:40 AM

I expect that the maintenance and operating costs of this much high speed track + trains is not insignificant and will diminish the funds available to pay off construction costs.

 

I know I'm comparing apples and oranges, but when it comes to moving people from place to place, both DFW and the Houston metro area could probably  move more people with more utility if they each could have the $10 billion for local transportation -- but I know it doesn't work that way.

 

Maybe they can charge in more profitable ways that are more difficult to do with a more local product -- charge a premium for a premium product.



#418 Electricron

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Posted 23 September 2020 - 12:21 AM

I expect that the maintenance and operating costs of this much high speed track + trains is not insignificant and will diminish the funds available to pay off construction costs.

 

I know I'm comparing apples and oranges, but when it comes to moving people from place to place, both DFW and the Houston metro area could probably  move more people with more utility if they each could have the $10 billion for local transportation -- but I know it doesn't work that way.

 

Maybe they can charge in more profitable ways that are more difficult to do with a more local product -- charge a premium for a premium product.

No doubt, they could. Never-the-less, neither DART or METRO are anywhere close to earning a profit from fares alone. Texas Central hopes to earn a  profit with a premium, super fast train, with premium fares; which attracts private investors and finding the money to build this intercity HSR train.

 

As it is, if you gave DART or METRO $10 billion each, they would use $8.5 billion each to lower the fares on their trains, and would only have $1.5 billion each to build more lines. 



#419 AndyN

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Posted 03 November 2020 - 05:57 PM

FRA published the rule of particular applicability and record of decision in the federal register for the Dallas Bullet Train today. If you can't sleep tonight, try reading this.

 

https://www.federalr...afety-standards


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#420 AndyN

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 01:53 PM

Today, the Texas Supreme Court refused to hear the case of landowners challenging Texas Central Railway's authority to use eminent domain. The Texas Court of Appeals decided last year that TCRy qualifies to use eminent domain under the Texas Transportation Code. Texas Central has recently signed contracts with a design-build firm and a electric systems installer. Hopefully with Covid on the wane we will see some activity leading to construction soon.


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#421 renamerusk

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Posted 18 June 2021 - 04:32 PM

The two occurrences: first a contractual signing followed within only a few days by the TSC refusing to hear the complaints case is highly curious to say the least.  The timing of this double header coincidence may raise some eyebrows!



#422 AndyN

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Posted 01 April 2022 - 03:01 PM

County Attorneys along the proposed route submitted a letter to the Texas Supreme Court describing $600k in unpaid property taxes.

 

https://thetexan.new...proposed-route/


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#423 AndyN

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Posted 13 June 2022 - 03:35 PM

Well, this doesn't help their cause any. Texas Central's Carlos Aguilar announces he's leaving his position.

 

https://communityimp...nces-departure/


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#424 AndyN

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 02:06 PM

The head attorney for the Texas Central Railway sent a letter to the Texas Supreme Court saying that the company remains open for business under its new management, is continuing to seek further investment, and is moving forward with the development of this high speed train.


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#425 Nitixope

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 03:07 PM

Just a few loose ends.  I'm guessing these matters are contingent on the decision by the Supreme Court?

  • Texas Supreme Court has not issued an opinion on Miles v. Texas Central eminent domain case.  Miles challenged Texas Central’s eminent domain authority after the company attempted to survey roughly 600 acres of his land in Leon County. Texas Central counterclaimed, seeking a declaratory judgment that they were a "railroad company" under the Texas Transportation Code.  https://www.nbcdfw.c...sportation Code.
  • Texas Central hasn't filed their application with the Surface Transportation Board (STB) required before construction may begin. The STB’s analysis would consider the economic viability of the project, engineering work, and application of the rules promulgated by the Federal Railroad Administration. https://thetexan.new...d-rails-demise/
  • What ended up happening with the $600K in unpaid property taxes?  Did they get that resolved?


#426 JBB

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Posted 23 June 2022 - 03:18 PM

The head attorney for the Texas Central Railway sent a letter to the Texas Supreme Court saying that the company remains open for business under its new management, is continuing to seek further investment, and is moving forward with the development of this high speed train.

 

Nothing instills confidence like a "we're still here and we're looking for money" letter.



#427 Crestline

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Posted 26 June 2022 - 06:22 AM

 

The head attorney for the Texas Central Railway sent a letter to the Texas Supreme Court saying that the company remains open for business under its new management, is continuing to seek further investment, and is moving forward with the development of this high speed train.

 

Nothing instills confidence like a "we're still here and we're looking for money" letter.

 

 

On the one hand, I wouldn't construe Central Railway's letter to the Court this way, because they didn't file it out of the blue. Instead, per the article they apparently filed it in response to a landowner filing alleging the opposite. So, their hand was forced into filing this "we're still here and we're looking for money" letter -- they had to make this statement even if they didn't really want or need to.

 

On the other hand, per the article the original landowner filings assert "that the rail project is now being managed by Michael Bui, who works for FTI Consulting and “advises clients through distress events, bankruptcy, reorganization, and sale.”" We have to take this with a grain of salt because the landowners in question are adverse to Central Railway, but if it's the case that Bui's sole expertise is in distressed events, etc., then I think the railroad is doomed, because you don't hire a guy like that unless you're planning to fold.



#428 steave

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Posted 26 June 2022 - 02:31 PM

I think Covid and the effects on business travel created a challenging situation for this project.

 

I do wish they'd build it though. It would be cool as hell.



#429 Nitixope

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Posted 26 June 2022 - 03:50 PM

Texas Supreme Court rules in favor of Texas Central Railway:

https://www.wfaa.com...2f-7e8ceee5a74f

#430 Jeriat

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Posted 26 June 2022 - 06:55 PM

Texas Supreme Court rules in favor of Texas Central Railway:

https://www.wfaa.com...2f-7e8ceee5a74f

*genuinely surprised*

Blog-Surprise-KTLAChrisSchauble.gif


7fwPZnE.png

 

8643298391_d47584a085_b.jpg


#431 Crestline

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 06:11 AM

Texas Supreme Court rules in favor of Texas Central Railway:

https://www.wfaa.com...2f-7e8ceee5a74f

 

Wow! Decision is here: https://www.txcourts...4463/200393.pdf



#432 Nitixope

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 08:24 AM

 

Texas Supreme Court rules in favor of Texas Central Railway:

https://www.wfaa.com...2f-7e8ceee5a74f

 

Wow! Decision is here: https://www.txcourts...4463/200393.pdf

 

 

Some of the drawbacks to Amtrak is they use freight lines and have frequent delays waiting for traffic to clear.  Also, as seen in this week's news, are the protentional for collisions at crossings and derailments.  If Texas Central is going to do this right, they'd better design a railway that addresses some of these schedule and safety issues.  Is it mainly going to be elevated or just elevated in certain areas? 



#433 Dylan

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 08:45 AM

Texas Central would not share tracks with freight trains at all. It would be completely separate from the national rail network.


-Dylan


#434 Nitixope

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 08:49 AM

That wasn't really my question...will their own tracks be largely elevated or most surface level?  How are they handling rural and urban crossings?



#435 Dylan

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Posted 29 June 2022 - 09:17 AM

If I recall correctly, this line is supposed to be elevated at all street crossings. Though, I could easily see TCR having this line intersect some streets at grade in order to save money.


-Dylan


#436 AndyN

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Posted 13 July 2022 - 11:21 PM

At-grade crossings are an anathema for a bullet train. With the high speeds, access to the right-of-way is fenced and strictly controlled to prevent incursions by vehicles, automobiles and even animals. On the prototype system in Japan, the lines do not even share tracks with freight trains except in the tunnel under the Tsugaru Strait. The Seikan Tunnel is dual gauged for 3 foot freight railroad tracks and the standard gage bullet train tracks but the operating speed of the bullet train is reduced to 100 mph.

 

I was fortunate enough to get to go out with a maintenance crew on the Shinkansen west of Hamamatsu a couple of years ago and the slowest part of the work was waiting for the last train to pull into the station so the power could be shut off and gate access could be obtained. The foreman was in contact with dispatch on the radio an it was a very regimented process to get access through the gate, which was strung with barbed wire and had security cameras.

 

https://www.google.c...12!8i6656?hl=en

 

It was a wonderful opportunity to see the re-ballasting of a stretch of the line and learn about the track structure even though it started at 3 am. Unfortunately, I was asked not to take any pictures by the JR West guys, so it's all personal memories now.


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#437 Dylan

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Posted 15 July 2022 - 11:57 PM

I hope this line (if it gets built) is built to Japanese standards with no grade crossings.

 

But, I can see a scenario where Texas Central cuts corners and builds track across some streets at grade.

 

The California High Speed Rail project is planned to have grade crossings at some streets between San Jose and San Francisco.


-Dylan


#438 AndyN

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Posted 20 July 2022 - 04:11 PM

But, I can see a scenario where Texas Central cuts corners and builds track across some streets at grade.

 

 

Please disabuse yourself of that idea. The whole point of a bullet train is total control of the right-of-way. But, whether the line ever gets built is another question.


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#439 Nitixope

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Posted 20 July 2022 - 04:27 PM


But, I can see a scenario where Texas Central cuts corners and builds track across some streets at grade.
 

 
Please disabuse yourself of that idea. The whole point of a bullet train is total control of the right-of-way. But, whether the line ever gets built is another question.

I heard theyre using viaducts.

Its interesting the court ruling confirms it is legally an interurban electric railway company.

#440 AndyN

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Posted 17 October 2022 - 02:35 PM

Texas Central has paid its property taxes and refuses to respond to landowners queries. Signs of renewed life?

 

https://www.kbtx.com...-sign-new-life/


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#441 AndyN

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Posted 27 October 2022 - 08:35 PM

http://www.houstontx...train-ride.html

 

Mayor Sylvester Turner and a Houston delegation ride the Shinkansen and toured the operations center.


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#442 Crestline

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Posted 28 October 2022 - 08:10 AM

I think it's strange that Texas Central apparently isn't fundraising like crazy given the legal victory this summer. All they need to do is turn money into a railroad now right? What other obstacles do they face?



#443 AndyN

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Posted 29 March 2023 - 03:01 PM

Landowners and Texas Central Railroad are scheduled to be in a courtroom April 7 to determine whether TCRR will be compelled to answer questions about the project. Texas Central is asking for the petition to be dismissed and to be awarded court costs and expenses.


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#444 AndyN

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Posted 12 April 2023 - 10:40 AM

Texas Rail Advocates reports that attorneys for the property owner in Calvin House vs.Texas Central Railroad cancelled Friday's court because the witness for the plaintiff was out of the country. Texas Central attorneys believe that the case is weak. 

 

https://www.texasrai...ject-on-april-7


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#445 Crestline

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Posted 11 May 2023 - 07:11 AM

Texas Rail Advocates reports that attorneys for the property owner in Calvin House vs.Texas Central Railroad cancelled Friday's court because the witness for the plaintiff was out of the country. Texas Central attorneys believe that the case is weak. 

 

https://www.texasrai...ject-on-april-7

 

In the linked court motion PDF plaintiff's attorney makes a good case that there's just never going to be any money to build the railroad; not from private investors, Japanese partners, or the state and federal governments. Weird that plaintiff's witness was a no-show at his own hearing.



#446 RD Milhollin

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Posted 16 May 2023 - 11:18 PM

If the TCR can't get things in motion in the next few years I could see them selling out to Brightline, once the Los Angeles (area) link to Las Vegas is up and running.



#447 txbornviking

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 03:31 PM

If the TCR can't get things in motion in the next few years I could see them selling out to Brightline, once the Los Angeles (area) link to Las Vegas is up and running.

 

even service connecting the texas triangle at Brightlines 125mph speed would be a game change



#448 RD Milhollin

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Posted 17 May 2023 - 10:29 PM

Brightline West anticipates 186 MPH + top speed between La La Land and Sin City:

 

https://frontend.gob...brightline-west



#449 redblock

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Posted 18 May 2023 - 09:38 AM

Here is a Forbes article about Wes Evens, Chairman of the group that owns Brightline. It is mostly about his plans for Brightline West. But he also likes Dallas to Houston.

https://trib.al/kYz8Nfw




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