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Downtown Diversity


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#1 mosteijn

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 10:15 PM

Rather than changing the topic of other threads, I feel a new one should be created to address this topic. It's been said a few times on this forum (at least this is how I interpert it) that downtown lacks "diversity" or that it's becoming a place that shuns the "average" person and is only welcoming to the rich. I just have to say, where is this opinion coming from?

I went downtown tonight with 2 friends my age (aka TEENAGERS, more precisely HIGH SCHOOLERS), without our parents. We went to Chili's for dinner, walked around a bit, saw a movie, and had a great time, while only spending 15 bucks. That's right, me and me friends aren't rich and we had a good time.

In the process of walking around, eating, and watching the movie, I saw people from EVERY walk of life. There were white, black, and hispanic people, skinny and fat people, young and old people, single and "coupled" people, families, people with piercings and tattoos, a lady walking her dog...basically any kind of person imaginable, all there, all enjoying the same restaurants and stores and the same city streets.

Now, exactly how is that lacking diversity or being selective in favor of the well-to-do? Perhaps this perception has stemmed from the fact that downtown living doesn't come cheap. Or maybe I've totally missed the point some of you were trying to make. But I don't think downtown will ever be exclusive or purely "upscale" or anything like that, it's just got this reputation as being a place where anyone in the city can go and have a good time. If even a teenager isn't intimidated by the amenities in downtown, why should anyone else be?

Just thought I'd get that off my chest... :swg:

#2 JBB

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 10:48 PM

I think the shunning of the average person has mainly been referenced when it comes to residential, not the entertainment and dining amenities you mention. Those are certainly not completely upscale in nature, but the vast majority of the residential options downtown are out of the price range for average income individuals.

#3 Dismuke

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 03:02 AM

If even a teenager isn't intimidated by the amenities in downtown, why should anyone else be?

I think BB's answer hit the nail on the head regarding the wider issue you raised.

But in response to this particular question - that depends entirely on the person's situation and perspective. And I guarantee you that there are plenty of people in this city who don't have an extra $15 to blow on a movie - and would regard your referring to it as "only $15" as proof that you are, if not "rich" then at least doing ok.

Case in point - a few years ago, there was an elderly lady who worked at one of the local supermarkets with whom I would occasionally get into conversations. She was a nice enough lady - but I guess after a few polite chit-chat conversations she felt comfortable enough with me to air her political views, which were quite aways to the Left of my own, at least on matters having to do with economics. I had a few mini-debates with her and she could get a bit fiery. But I always backed out of them pretty quickly, primarily out of concern that one of her bosses might walk along and she would get in trouble for engaging in behavior that was probably not particularly appropriate on the job (I wasn't offended by her stepping on a soapbox - but some customers probably would have been).

Anyhow, one day I was at the supermarket and the lady told me that she recently had to take a day off from work for jury duty in downtown Fort Worth. She quickly climbed on her soapbox about how horrible it was that, on her lunch break, the only place she could afford to eat was at some snack counter where she ended up spending $3.50 for a muffin. She felt very strongly that $3.50 was an outrageous price to have to pay for a muffin, that it constituted "highway robbery," that the problem with the world today was that everybody is "greedy" and somebody "ought to do something about it."

Being the frugal sort that I am, I sympathized with her to the degree that $3.50 is indeed quite a bit to pay for a few pennies worth of flour and sugar. Obviously, however, when you buy a muffin downtown rather than making one yourself from scratch, you are paying for much more than just flour and sugar. I tried to put the issue in perspective for her by explaining that the people who sell the muffins have to make a living too. But she kept insisting that to charge $3.50 was pure "greed."

I finally asked her what she thought a fair price for a muffin was. She felt that, since it was a rather big muffin, it was probably worth $1, which is what similar muffins sold for in that grocery store. I tried to explain that the person who owned the snack counter had to pay rent, which was probably not cheap, as well as the salary of either himself or the person he hired to run the counter. I also explained that the owner of the snack counter did not have the economies of scale and the sales volume of a huge supermarket chain. I tried to explain that the owner might not be able to sell enough muffins at $1 to pay for all of his expenses - in which case he either has to raise his prices or stop selling muffins. But this, too, was only met by more accusations of "greed."

Eventually, with a bit of frustration in my voice, I simply asked her: "so you think it is greedy for someone to want to put food on his table, to be able to afford things such as buying clothes and paying his air conditioning bill...." As soon as I said "air conditioning bill" the lady visibly winced and after a moment she squinted her eyes and snapped back at me: "Air conditioning bill? Who has air conditioning? My place doesn't have air conditioning. Why should I have to pay for his?"

With that, I basically stopped the conversation. What I was hearing wasn't just your typical everyday Leftist class warfare claptrap. It was the frustration of an obviously intelligent lady who apparently had a pretty hard life. Texas is certainly not a great place for an elderly person to have to live without air conditioning. I remembered back when I was 18 and on my own for the first time and there was a difficult period when my only source of food was from a kind friend who realized what my situation was and invited me out to dinner every night on the pretext that he did not like to dine alone. At the time, I certainly could not have afforded a muffin from a snack counter. But I was at least fortunate enough to have had my rent paid up for a few weeks ahead of time and, if things became really desperate, I always had an airline ticket back to mom and dad in Texas. Maybe this lady's situation was no better and was perhaps worse than mine had been years earlier. And while I was always a staunch capitalist even when I was flat broke and was never for a moment even tempted to be taken in by the sort of class envy propagated by the Left - I had no context whatsoever as to what circumstances led this lady to arrive at her particular worldview. Basically, my reaction to her revelation was to feel very sad for her.

On the other hand, despite the fact that this lady was unable to afford air conditioning and a $3.50 muffin, it is important to keep in mind that her standard of living would, nevertheless, have been considered quite affluent compared the that of the vast majority of the people who are alive on earth today.

Designations of "rich" and "poor" are largely a matter of perspective.

So when you ask why should anyone be intimidated by the amenities in downtown Fort Worth when certain teenagers aren't - well, there are some people who, unlike teenagers who usually have mom and dad to subsidize many or most of their basic expenses, have a difficult struggle simply putting inexpensive food on their table and paying their rent and car payments on time. It is possible that you might even find yourself in a similar situation for a brief period when you are out on your own for the first time and trying to get yourself established. I certainly did - and I even remember a couple of occasions when I chose not to go out with friends because I knew they would end up in places similar in price to a Chili's or Bennigans and that I would be basically sitting there hungry watching everyone else eat because I didn't have the money to order anything. Thankfully, those days are long since behind me and I don't think twice about blowing an amount of money on things like 78 rpm records that, in those days, I would have considered a small fortune. I certainly did not enjoy being poor and I do not recommend it to anyone. On the other hand, I learned an awful lot of lessons from the experience - including the ability to at least understand the perspective of a great many people that I don't have very much in common with. And above all, it taught me to never look down on a person simply because he doesn't have a lot of money.
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#4 tcole

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 06:30 AM

Interesting anecdote Dis. I am surprised that you (as a capitalist) did not take your observations and experiential knowledge to the next conclusion. That being, anyone and everyone is responsible for and has to ability to raise themselves up from their condition if they choose to exercise the will. I too have experienced lean times while launching my business (I refer to it as the Dinty Moore/Vienna Sausage days when I lived in "The Rat Hole" [before Hussein made the term famous] and did without both AC and heat [it was in Houston and surprisingly the absence of heat was worse to bear than lack of AC]). As such, I too appreciate the value of the dollar as well as have some empathy for those in similarly lean situations - but my sympathy ends if that person does not do anything to ameliorate that situation. I have very little sympathy for those that accommodate stasis and then complain about such nonsense as their plight somehow being the fault of the greed of someone else or society in general.

BTW, I think I know exactly which clerk and at which supermarket you are referring

#5 mosteijn

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 07:58 AM

I was more referring to a few threads when people said that there weren't enough options of places to eat for the average person, and that they felt unwelcomed by the retail that's there. I also recall a thread where Dismuke ranted (if I stopped there, it could be any thread :swg: ) about downtown lacking diversity, but I'm not entirely sure if that's what it was because I can't seem to find the thread I'm referring to.

#6 2112

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Posted 04 August 2004 - 12:46 PM

I am not sure that complete diversity is always the preferred model. I don’t mean the diversity of the ethnicity of people, because I am a big believer of just such a thing. No, what I am talking about is the diversity of the kind of experience one is looking for. What I mean by that is that, sometimes, it is interesting for an area to develop a specialized feel, like say, for a part of a city to be somewhat more known for its shopping, while another area is known for pubs, restaurants, and a speakeasy type of environment, while yet another area becomes a mecca for the alternative lifestyles. This way, you don’t end up with a “one-size-fits-all” homogenous average that is just “ok”, but does not really invoke a sense of uniqueness or place.
:ph34r:




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