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T&P Warehouse Redevelopment

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#1 jefffwd

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 04:24 PM

I know there is already a thread on this topic but things got kinda heated about a year ago so I propose a fresh thread. Has anything happened to the proposed conversion of the T&P Warehouse in the last year? I sure would like to see someone develop this building...



#2 Fort Worthology

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Posted 10 September 2010 - 07:53 AM

My opinion (and it's not based on any direct evidence, just my feeling) is that it will never happen as long as its current owner still owns it, despite the PR-friendly talk of last year.

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#3 Phil Phillips

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 04:59 PM

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but I'm curious about how this warehouse functioned when it was being used. Any rail history people out there that can explain the exact purpose of a rail warehouse back then? In other words, did they offload goods from the trains, store for a short time, then truck to local businesses? What about goods going out from there? Are there still RR warehouses or are goods on freight trains now handled totally different? Thanks.

#4 AndyN

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 06:14 PM

Persactly. Railroads used to handle what was called LCL or "Less-than Car Load". Just like UPS or FedEx, they had a fleet of trucks and would provide local freight parcel pickup and delivery. I remember the Missouri-Pacific LCL trucks when I was a kid that used to run around my hometown. At some point in the late 1970s or early 80s, they stopped offering LCL and would only pickup freight cars. Now, they have gotten to the point where they don't even want to do individual cars, they would prefer that you ship a whole trainload of cars - ie unit trains. A full train going a long distance is the most efficient model for the major railroads. Pages 7, 44 and 45 in this report details this trend a little better than I have perhaps.
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#5 Dismuke

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 07:55 PM

Andy -

That is very interesting. Perhaps you can answer some follow up questions:

How did they load the freight into the warehouse building? Looking at an aerial view on Bing maps it does not appear to be especially obvious. There is one entrance that looks like it goes under the basement of the refrigerated portion of the building (i.e., the portion with no windows). Did trains actually go inside the building to drop off the cars?

Also, was this some sort of regional freight hub for the T&P railroad as opposed to merely something to serve Fort Worth? I am not aware of the T&P having any facility comparable in Dallas? Was there one to your knowledge?

I know that the Santa Fe Railroad had a multi-building complex occupying multiple blocks directly behind the Sante Fe Building office skyscraper. One of them - which has a very nice penthouse that was the home to radio station WFAA and was once connected to the Santa Fe Building via bridge many floors over the street - has been converted into lofts. That complex has underground tunnels and special trains were used to haul in the freight because of the danger of the exhaust on normal trains. But I am not aware of that railroad having anything at all comparable in Fort Worth. Nor am I aware of a comparable facility by ANY railroad that served Dallas. So I am wondering if the two facilities - the T&P freight depot in Fort Worth and the Santa Fe complex in Dallas - were perhaps regional hubs of some sort.
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#6 Phil Phillips

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 09:18 PM

Thanks, Andy. Your explanation is very helpful. How are the shipments handled today?

#7 Dismuke

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

How are the shipments handled today?


I know that a lot of train shipments today are containerized and fully integrated into the ocean going ship and trucking networks. For example, goods from a factory in China can be placed in a container that is loaded on a ship and, when it gets to the USA, is loaded on a train and ultimately on a truck for final delivery. In those cases, the container is not opened (except for spot checks by Customs) between the time it leaves the factory until it reaches its final destination.

But I know that does not account for all train freight traffic - so I, too, would be interested in hearing what Andy or someone else has to say on that.
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#8 djold1

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:14 PM

Dismukes...

All the freight tracks were on the outside of the T&P freight building on the south side. There was another, lower freight building to the south of the big one. It has been demolished for many years.

The PDF below from pages in my collection gives the whole story of the building of both the Terminal and the Freight Depots....

TP Depot

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#9 ron4Life

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 02:28 PM

So are there any new news about the redevelopment of this structure?

#10 cberen1

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:50 PM

This just in. Nothing is still happening at unprecedented levels on the T&P Warehouse site. And while this could change at any moment, the current level of nothing happening is expected to continue indefinitely. Experts predict that if the current level of nothing happening remains unchanged, literally millions of people in the DFW area may continue to not notice.










Sorry. Just wired that way. :devil:

#11 ron4Life

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 01:54 PM

So I'm assuming it will take millions to JUST, wait for it... knock it down right?

#12 Fort Worthology

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Posted 10 February 2011 - 04:51 PM

The T&P Warehouse is a protected historic building. It would take a lot of legal wrangling to think about tearing it down. Though I kind of feel that the current owner is guilty of demolition by neglect as they float a new development plan every once in a while to keep the specter of TIF dollars in play.

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#13 Brian Luenser

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 09:53 PM

Photo of T&P Warehouse today. Feb 12, 2011. This is a big building.

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#14 bburton

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Posted 12 February 2011 - 11:32 PM

Nice photo. This building probably appears even better in the morning light. :)

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#15 jefffwd

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 09:25 AM

I really wish someone would step up and redevelop this gem...

#16 David Love

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Posted 13 February 2011 - 01:37 PM

I think once Montgomery has taken a positive direction, then and only then would T&P developers garner enough courage to pick a direction. Until then, they're just going to sit at the chess board with their finger firmly planted on their piece, surveying all the other pieces on the board trying to make up their mind.

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#17 RD Milhollin

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 07:05 AM

My link

S-T reports that there may be more obstacles for the owners of the T & P Warehouse to get financing to renovate the building. Not good news for that part of downtown.

#18 BlueMound

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Posted 07 July 2011 - 10:21 PM

T&P Warehouse owners are given another extension
Link to article


The owners of the Texas & Pacific Warehouse were given another extension Thursday by a city board and now have until Aug. 30 to present completed loan documents before they can receive $9.1 million from the Lancaster Tax Increment Finance District.

At Thursday's board meeting, Cleopatra asked for a 20-month extension on its agreement, saying easement issues with the city developed in June that will cause its construction timetable to be delayed again.

#19 BlueMound

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 04:21 PM

According the this article about the T&P Warehouse, it sounds like the city is moving forward with connecting Lamar Street over the railroad tracks to Hemphill. That will be nice to have. It should help both Lancaster and Downtown South.

Link to article

"The City Council last month voted to begin condemnation on land it wants to acquire, as well as a portion it wants to use as a temporary construction easement for the extension of Lamar Street south past the Union Pacific Railroad tracks to Hemphill Street"

#20 David Love

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 06:00 PM

I'd think that would be a good idea, if you can put things off for another 20 - 24 months, should be enough time for the dust to settle. That would allow them to complete about the time people realize housing starts being off for so long has left quite a gap and they'll be right there to capitalize on it.

What's the median square footage on the planned apartments, I wonder?

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#21 David Love

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Posted 08 July 2011 - 06:26 PM

According the this article about the T&P Warehouse, it sounds like the city is moving forward with connecting Lamar Street over the railroad tracks to Hemphill. That will be nice to have. It should help both Lancaster and Downtown South.

Link to article

"The City Council last month voted to begin condemnation on land it wants to acquire, as well as a portion it wants to use as a temporary construction easement for the extension of Lamar Street south past the Union Pacific Railroad tracks to Hemphill Street"


This looks like it should go under T&P Warehouse Redevelopment

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#22 Big Frog II

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 08:57 AM

If I were the city, I would say my patience has worn out.

#23 David Love

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 12:10 PM

If I were the city, I would say my patience has worn out.

True, but I think the city is aware of the current state of the Real Estate Industry and will probably give any project that's moving in a positive direction some breathing room as long as they get the job done.

I just hope they have some provision to ensure the structure doesn't decay any more than it already has. It would be criminal to have a company sit on a project so long that it had to be destroyed.

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#24 Joshw

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:11 AM

Looks like there is new development for the T&P Warehouse: Link

A tree grows on the roof?? Anyone with a really big zoom lens think they can get a shot of this? *hint hint*

#25 Brian D

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:21 AM

Looks like there is new development for the T&P Warehouse: Link

A tree grows on the roof?? Anyone with a really big zoom lens think they can get a shot of this? *hint hint*


We will take a look on our next photo flight! The satellite picture does show several green objects on the roof.

#26 Joshw

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:27 AM

Yeah if you zoom in on GoogleMaps and then turn the North to the right, (making the building look vertical on your screen) you can see several green somethings. Interesting....

#27 Ron Payne

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:56 AM

That's funny - my wife and I walked by there yesterday, and I pointed out to her that it looks like a tree is growing on top! Small now, but with some good rainy weather, it could bring some beauty to this building!
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#28 T&PLoftDweller

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

I had some pictures on the old thread about the T&P Warehouse that I took on my cell phone a few years back. Here they are again:

Posted Image
01-12-08_1526 by johnkirking, on Flickr
There's a tree, but it was winter so no leaves.

Posted Image
01-12-08_1541 by johnkirking, on Flickr

Posted Image
01-12-08_1507 by johnkirking, on Flickr

Posted Image
01-12-08_1600 by johnkirking, on Flickr

Posted Image
01-12-08_1545 by johnkirking, on Flickr

Posted Image
01-12-08_1550 by johnkirking, on Flickr

#29 John T Roberts

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:54 AM

Yes, the last time I was up on the roof, a tree was growing out of it and you could see the tree from Lancaster Avenue. It's a shame that the city street extension has hampered the redevelopment of this beautiful Art Deco structure.

#30 johnfwd

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 07:51 AM

Yes, the last time I was up on the roof, a tree was growing out of it and you could see the tree from Lancaster Avenue. It's a shame that the city street extension has hampered the redevelopment of this beautiful Art Deco structure.

I thought the redevelopment delays were due to the intransigence of the female owner? Could you provide a brief update as to "city street extension "? I must have missed it in the news accounts.

#31 Joshw

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:08 AM


Yes, the last time I was up on the roof, a tree was growing out of it and you could see the tree from Lancaster Avenue. It's a shame that the city street extension has hampered the redevelopment of this beautiful Art Deco structure.

I thought the redevelopment delays were due to the intransigence of the female owner? Could you provide a brief update as to "city street extension "? I must have missed it in the news accounts.


See a couple posts above this. I posted the link from Fort Worth Business Press.

#32 ron4Life

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:44 PM

Very interesting statement:

"The project planned for restoration of the Texas & Pacific Warehouse Building has been stalled due to street realignment. HFW said it hopes the building’s owner, Cleopatra Investments Ltd., will make quick progress once street plans are worked out.". From [ Fort Worth Business Press ]

#33 Doohickie

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

Why is that interesting? The city is working on the Lamar-Hemphill extension which will run right by the building; I think I would want to know exactly what that final road configuration will be prior to undertaking any project, and perhaps realizing some synergy from that construction. Waiting can be a smart move.

Also, there may be logistical issues with doing the building remodel and the road construction concurrently:

The owners say repeated delays with a city street project that would temporarily occupy a portion of their site have inhibited their ability to move forward.



Interesting, though... I guess the Lamar-Hemphill extension is going forward in order to improve access between the Near Southside and Downtown, but what will it really provide that Henderson and Jennings don't already do? Jennings pretty much dumps right into Hemphill directly; why is the Lamar link needed?
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#34 Volare

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 06:56 PM

Pretty sure it is just an excuse by the owners to delay condemnation.

#35 FortWorthLowrider

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:31 PM

Any updates?


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#36 Joshw

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:27 AM

I haven't seen any new activity. Currently it's still just a background for people who want a old grunge-y building to take pictures in front of.



#37 jefffwd

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:06 AM

Implode that ugly thing!!! :devil:



#38 Fort Worthology

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:15 AM

It's not ugly - it's just neglected.  I wish we had more big, cool warehouses left in this town for restoration and adaptive reuse.

 

If an owner who was LESS TALK, MORE ROCK owned it instead of its current situation, it would be one amazing redevelopment.

 

(And it doesn't need any stinkin' driveways cut through it, either!)


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#39 John T Roberts

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:21 AM

Guys, you don't really realize what a diamond in the rough we have in this building.  There is a lot of great potential for redevelopment.  Also, the building can't be imploded in the near future.  It is a Highly Significant and Endangered Landmark in the City of Fort Worth; therefore, it has the highest level of historic designation and protection.



#40 johnfwd

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:34 AM

Guys, you don't really realize what a diamond in the rough we have in this building.  There is a lot of great potential for redevelopment.  Also, the building can't be imploded in the near future.  It is a Highly Significant and Endangered Landmark in the City of Fort Worth; therefore, it has the highest level of historic designation and protection.

The state legislature may pass a casino gambling bill this session.  If so, one of the casinos is slated for Tarrant County.  Why not offer this warehouse to a Jack Binion-type to spruce it up a la early 20th century, bring in the slot machines,keno tables, dance hall girls, and liven up south downtown Fort Worth?



#41 Doohickie

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

Gawd, that would be an awesome use for the building... and walking distance from the train, to boot.  And it would trigger quite a bit of development in the immediate area- restaurants and such.

 

 

And the name of the casino?  Well, "Hell's Half Acre" of course! :devil:


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#42 Joshw

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

(And it doesn't need any stinkin' driveways cut through it, either!)

 

No doubt....

 

I don't think it's ugly either, it's just no kept up. I'd love to see it become housing with business' or retail at the bottom floor. Something more along T&P's pricing that isn't so extravagant like The Tower's.



#43 Brian Luenser

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:55 PM

I was over there walking around Sunday night. 

 

TampPOne_zps6211f0ad.jpg

 

 

I was surprised to see this girl sitting on the dock in the back.  But not so surprised that did not get 105mm on her before I left her be.

 

girlonwarehouse_zpsc9a4da85.jpg


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#44 Brian Luenser

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 09:57 PM

 

Guys, you don't really realize what a diamond in the rough we have in this building.  There is a lot of great potential for redevelopment.  Also, the building can't be imploded in the near future.  It is a Highly Significant and Endangered Landmark in the City of Fort Worth; therefore, it has the highest level of historic designation and protection.

The state legislature may pass a casino gambling bill this session.  If so, one of the casinos is slated for Tarrant County.  Why not offer this warehouse to a Jack Binion-type to spruce it up a la early 20th century, bring in the slot machines,keno tables, dance hall girls, and liven up south downtown Fort Worth?

 

I am not a fan of gambling.  But if we were to have gambling, this place would be perfect in my opinion.  An excellent idea.


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#45 John T Roberts

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

I love the photographs, Brian.  Keep up the good work!



#46 RD Milhollin

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 10:45 PM

I really feel that the developers of casinos would be averse to rebuilding an old building. How many old, restored buildings do you see as casinos in the US? I feel there have been several ideas for reuse that are superior to a casino. The ideal spot (again, in my opinion) would be one of the vacant lots east of the Convention Center, actually where Hell's Half Acre used to be (like that name by the way) That would be close to the transportation center (Intermodal... hate that name), could host a modern, fully featured hotel, and could be connected to the Convention Center. 



#47 renamerusk

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 11:32 PM

Like Brian, I am not a big fan of gambling.

 

Would a casino generate additional restaurant sales for the city or would it cannibalize or stress the existing levels of restaurant sales in other parts of the city such as Near South, North Side and West Seventh?  How can we be sure that casino money generated in Fort Worth does not go to other parts of the state or even leave the state entirely?  I am recalling some illegalities and misappropriations associated with the Texas State Lottery.  I think a casino maybe economically dicey and a nightmare to regulate.

 

It is certainly very unpopular, but just raise taxes on everyone if needed; at least it is transparent.

 

Keep Fort Worth folksy

 

(Casinos in Texas may need its own thread.)



#48 Joshw

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:18 PM

Not to continue it, but I only see negative effects to a casino. I would love to see T&P's Warehouse built for Fort Worth, not for money grabbing people.



#49 John T Roberts

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

It might be time for someone to start a thread in the Miscellaneous forum for "Casino Gambling in Texas and Fort Worth".  That way the pros and cons could be debated there.



#50 McHand

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:46 PM

I really wish someone would step up and redevelop this gem...  

 

It will take some creativity possibly on the scale of Montgomery Plaza.  The whole thing couldn't just be apartments.  It could have some, but it is way too big for just residential.  Event space?  Hotel? Multi-function?

To lose it would be an atrocity to the city's fragile history.  Fort Worth (and most other American cities) is a fraction as old as the great and secondary European cities, some of which have survived war with their historic buildings intact.  Fort Worth needs to hold on to what it can, although a huge empty building is a liability.  

We need to get some ideas flowing before demolition by neglect is a reality.

What can this thing be???


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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Downtown, Historic Buildings, Lancaster Corridor, Historic Preservation

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