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The End of Suburbia: will oil depletion change our city planning model?


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#51 Biggins

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 02:23 PM

We need to put an end to the absurd loophole allowing people to obtain tax breaks for purchasing very heavy trucks.


Very true. But not for conservation reasons, but basic free market economic reasons.

It would suggest that an additional fuel surcharge (tax) would further motivate Americans to not drive F-250s if they don't need to.


Economic folly. Taxes should be used for revenue collection ONLY. Not for behavioral adjustment theory. When the latter happens, the laws of unintended consequences always negate the perceived benefits of the behavioral objective.

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The major free market violations in place, currently shaping our cities/exburbs:

Mortgage interest deductions for single-family detached homes
Segregated zoning laws, barring "true" mixed-use type developments
Fuel tax revenue & fees dedicated to the auto/trucking complex

Obviously, this list is not exhaustive, but these are the ones with the most implications for our current landscape.

To further elaborate on the gas tax...

We should drastically increase the diesel tax because of the proportion of damage being done to highways by trucks, ergo, forcing some of this traffic into newer, more efficient freight rail facilities. At the very least, the government should fund rail construction if it is to continue funding highway construction. If not, then discontinue the dedicated fuel tax and allow the funds to filter into the larger economy. Of course, we'll be paying more for goods and travel for a time, but at least we won't be propping up the entire trucking and airline industry while shunning more efficient modes of travel.

#52 Urbndwlr

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 11:30 PM

I'm following you, Yossarian, however I believe fuel taxes are a good idea as they are a straight-forward tool used to align the costs to society/the environment with the consumption of those public goods (i.e. the more fuel one burns, the more one depletes available clean air/water/etc, which the overall population bears). It appears to be the only realistic way to "charge" consumers for their pollution.

There might be another way to align the cost with the consumption of public goods such as the pollution of the environment. I don't know of such a readily available tool, but I would be eager to find one.

#53 Yossarian

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 04:11 AM

I'm sorry Urbndwlr, I just do not agree with your premise. Taxes should be for revenue collection only, not to redress social ills or as some sort of behavioral modification tool. Also,

the more one depletes available clean air/water/etc, which the overall population bears


do you mean to imply that these "commodities" are in limited supply and non-renewable? If so, I think that you may be, at best, on shaky ground scientifically.

#54 Urbndwlr

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 04:17 PM

I recently heard the manager of an apartment building proclaim that she is noticing a trend in her prospective residents: they are moving to locations closer to their places of work. (side note: this was not in Fort Worth)

I suspect that people who own homes are going to be less likely to pull up stakes and move closer to their work, however people with 12 month apartment leases would be more mobile and therefore likely to make such a move in the short term. Home owners would be likely much slower to respond as the "transaction cost" of making that move would be greater (including the implied social costs of moving full families).

Has anybody noticed or heard of similar evidence? I thought it was interesting to see evidence that people's daily habits are beginning to respond to the higher cost of transportation.

#55 McHand

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Posted 14 August 2005 - 07:02 PM

I recently heard the manager of an apartment building proclaim that she is noticing a trend in her prospective residents: they are moving to locations closer to their places of work.  (side note: this was not in Fort Worth)


Has anybody noticed or heard of similar evidence? I thought it was interesting to see evidence that people's daily habits are beginning to respond to the higher cost of transportation.

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I don't have evidence but I can offer an anecdote from my own life.

Although I'd like to live and work in the same neighborhood, I live a comfortable distance from work. I don't have to take the freeway if I don't want to and it only takes about five minutes more to get there with the inside streets. And I like my neighborhood so much I've decided to buy a house here. However, in my field the possibility of relocation is very real and I could be transferred. It isn't that I'd necessarily have to move, I just don't want to travel to another city to work.

I've expressed this with my superiors and will continue to do so in the near future. I simply believe people shouldn't have to punish themselves by spending an hour + in a car just to earn a living.

All this being said, a relocation would be easier to take if public transportation (to Dallas, for example) was more reliable.

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#56 gdvanc

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Posted 15 August 2005 - 11:31 PM

Another interesting article about gas prices. Points out a few things that I keep telling people but no one listens... like: everyone complains about the high prices but few make significant changes to their consumption. And: we're still not at historically high prices in real (that is, inflation-adjusted) terms.

Also, I found this one that's topical and interesting as well. Love my Prius.

#57 mosteijn

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 04:28 PM

My car gets 25 mpg and only has a 13 gallon tank, so I never end up spending more than $25 dollars on gas and I usually end up filling up only once every two weeks. Granted, not everyone is in my situation, but not everyone is in the situation of the huge SUV owners who spend 60-70 dollars per fill-up quite frequently, either.

I find it silly that the government sounds like it would be willing to pour money into alternatively powered cars which, more than likely, wouldn't be available to the general public for decades, when they could just put more money into mass transit. So not everyone is going to use it right away...it's still cheaper and more accessible to the general public (for now) than alternatively powered cars.

#58 Sam Stone

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 05:50 PM

I guess I have a few comments to make. Re: gas prices, other things I've read say that they would have to be up around $4/gallon before the average driver starts changing his behavior. And gas in Europe is what? $6/gallon? Just guessing, anyone know for sure?

Re: plugin electric cars, that is the dumbest thing I've heard of. Electrical power has to be produced for those cars to plug into. My guess is that some of that electrical power is coming from some environmentally unfriendly sources. Ditto ethanol. That thing is a big scam to sneak corn subsidies past us under the guise of environmentally friendly power. It takes more energy to produce ethanol than ethanol provides.

And, re: hybrid cars/alternative fuel sources, the problem with cars is not just waht they do to the natural environment, but what they do to the human environment. If all of the vehicles in the US were magically replaced with flubber powered zero-emissions vehicles we might breathe easier, but our problems would be far from solved. Living in an auto dominated environment is the problem and poor air quality is but one symptom.

And one more aside. The Prius is the fugliest car to be produced since the early 90s Chevy Caprice. It looks like a tuna. Their ugliness is part of their appeal to a certain demographic, but if they ever want mass appeal they're going to have to drop that hybrid powertrain into a visually inoffensive car. Kind of like Honda which makes hybrid versions of its existing lineup. I would love to drive a car that got mileage like that but not one that looks like a pregnant fish with wheels off a radio-flyer wagon.

Ok, sorry for the rant.

#59 djold1

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 07:11 PM

Nice little rant..

You made some very good points.

Plug-in electrics are not really practical and don't so a lot toward consumption and pollution relief even if they were widely accepted.

And the ethanol from corn hogwash (pun intended) has been bandied about since the first crisis in the early '70's and nothing technological has come along to keep if from costing more to produce than it saves, while also consuming diesel or gas for planting cultivating and harvesting and transporting out of its production aea.

Diesel itself, even though it can produce more miles per gallon, has a severe pollution problem and I understand that the refinery process produces less gallons of diesel than gasoline from a given barrel of crude.

The hybrid solution is kind of cool but the cost differential over a 5 year period destroys the savings and the total combined emissions are not that much less.

The hydrogen fuel cell idea has been around almost my entire life and the problem of generation, transportation, fueling, safe mobile storage and weight have always been the deal breakers. Not to mention that I believe hydrogen has a lower specific heat value than gasoline. Just as kerosene, ethanol, propane and butane (LPG) and CNG do. More weight, less power.

To my way of thinking your $4.00 is about the point where people really start buying already existing low pollution high mileage gas cars & light trucks. Simple, low-tech 50 mile per gallon low-emission cars have been around for a long time. When the action price point is reached, whatever it is, the public will take care of itself and do what seems most logical to them. They will provide the solution.

I do disagree that the car mentality is the problem. Cars are just tools. If there is a problem it is with the tool users. I personally don't want to go back to the horse & buggy days where methane emissions could not be controlled and toxic waste by the ton was visibly deposited on the streets of our city. They already have that problem down in Erath county with the dairy farms.

If you personally feel that you are willing to have your mobility reduced by not owning a car then that must be your personal decision. But you can't legislate that for me because to make it work would require that you restrict my living conditions to noisy, expensive, compact, crowded, disease inducing, crime multiplying, vertical solutions that would not fit my life style, even though they might be ideal for yours.

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#60 Sam Stone

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 08:13 PM

Djold, I didn't mean to suggest that a car mentality was the problem or that somehow legislating reduced car ownership was the solution. The problem is well, architecture, for lack of a better single word. Or you might say scale. The scale on which we build today is the scale of the automobile. This actually reduces the amount of personal choice that people are able to make about their transportation habits. Auto-scaled construction limits choice. Pedestrian-scaled design and architecture leaves room for multiple modes of transportation, cars included.

I happen to be somewhat of a car buff and I think that they are marvelous inventions, far superior to horse and buggy. But having to rely on a car to go anywhere and everywhere sucks. Pedestrians and cars can coexist, we just don't build very much these days that lets this happen.

Also, there are many grades of density, not just urban and suburban. The extreme low density suburban paradigm has been heavily subsidized since WWII. The flight of the middle class from the central cities left only those who could not afford to leave producing what are sometimes referred to as "concentration effects." But denser urban areas are not of necessity like that. Nor, as we are slowly learning, are suburban communities immune to the scourge of drugs and violence. There are many neighborhoods in FW that most would consider suburban, but were once served by a streetcar system and are still very walkable.

#61 hooked

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 08:49 AM

I guess I have a few comments to make.  Re: gas prices, other things I've read say that they would have to be up around $4/gallon before the average driver starts changing his behavior.  And gas in Europe is what?  $6/gallon?  Just guessing, anyone know for sure? 

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In much of Europe (the Netherlands, Scandanavia, Italy) gas is currently just under $9/gallon.

#62 safly

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:21 AM

I guess I have a few comments to make.  Re: gas prices, other things I've read say that they would have to be up around $4/gallon before the average driver starts changing his behavior.  And gas in Europe is what?  $6/gallon?  Just guessing, anyone know for sure? 

Re: plugin electric cars, that is the dumbest thing I've heard of.  Electrical power has to be produced for those cars to plug into.  My guess is that some of that electrical power is coming from some environmentally unfriendly sources.  Ditto ethanol.  That thing is a big scam to sneak corn subsidies past us under the guise of environmentally friendly power.  It takes more energy to produce ethanol than ethanol provides. 

And, re: hybrid cars/alternative fuel sources, the problem with cars is not just waht they do to the natural environment, but what they do to the human environment.  If all of the vehicles in the US were magically replaced with flubber powered zero-emissions vehicles we might breathe easier, but our problems would be far from solved.  Living in an auto dominated environment is the problem and poor air quality is but one symptom. 

And one more aside.  The Prius is the fugliest car to be produced since the early 90s Chevy Caprice.  It looks like a tuna.  Their ugliness is part of their appeal to a certain demographic, but if they ever want mass appeal they're going to have to drop that hybrid powertrain into a visually inoffensive car.  Kind of like Honda which makes hybrid versions of its existing lineup.  I would love to drive a car that got mileage like that but not one that looks like a pregnant fish with wheels off a radio-flyer wagon. 

Ok, sorry for the rant.

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I believe that Honda or Toyota makes a hybrid car line that re-generates power through the forces of the stopping action from the brakes, the centrifugal force of a turn, and the constant revolution of the drive shaft during motion. Interesting stuff that is out there already. CA Highway Transportation Board and CA Legislature are in the works for allowing hybrid (alternative energy) vehicle motorists access to their HOV lanes, with or without another person. I'm in if the price is right.

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#63 safly

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:26 AM

During my recent visit to the NE and IL. I ran across some people who were complaining about fuel prices and the assumed price for heating oil in the near future. I told them what the highs were in TX, they made some "I wonder why Texas always has some of the lowest prices in the US?" remark. I had no answer for them, other than proximity to refineries in H-town, but I think they are more of Petro-chemical plants, like STINK-adena (Pasadena) and Deer Park (home of Andy Pettite). Any help?
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#64 Sam Stone

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 11:42 AM

Re: gasoline prices, couldn't tell you. Proximity to Houston and the gulf would be my guess. A lower gas excise tax may account for part of that too.

Re: heating oil, we are luckily not dependent on that here. Much of the power in TX is generated by natural gas drilled in our very state. Also, 2002 the deregulation of the power industry and subsequent emergence of the Retail Electric Provider (REP) market keeps prices competitive. So some of our power actually comes from neighboring states as well, basically whatever is cheapest.

Re: hybrids, Honda, Toyota, and Ford are the only ones making hybrids for the US market. Of those, the hybrid Accord is the only one I find appealing. I'm surprised they haven't introduced a hybrid Acura yet as Toyota has done with their Lexus line. There has been some bugaboo in the media about how they seem to be using the hybrid technology more for increased hp than mileage. I think this is alright. Let them make cars however they want, and raise the gas tax instead.

Also, TX should allow cities to collect a municipal gas excise tax. This could be directed straight into a fund for road improvement. Move all of that street related debt service over to that fund and then cut property taxes.

#65 Yossarian

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 03:56 PM

Also, TX should allow cities to collect a municipal gas excise tax. This could be directed straight into a fund for road improvement. Move all of that street related debt service over to that fund and then cut property taxes.


No. Or then at least significantly lower or eliminate the Motor Vehicle Registration fee. The problem is not necessarily one of funds, but of responsible allocation of said funds.

So some of our power actually comes from neighboring states as well


I do not think that that is acurate Sam. As I recall, Texas is actually on its own and SEPARATE power grid.

During my recent visit to the NE and IL. I ran across some people who were complaining about fuel prices and the assumed price for heating oil in the near future. I told them what the highs were in TX, they made some "I wonder why Texas always has some of the lowest prices in the US?" remark. I had no answer for them, other than proximity to refineries in H-town, but I think they are more of Petro-chemical plants, like STINK-adena (Pasadena) and Deer Park (home of Andy Pettite). Any help?


Safly: Good question. Sam answers it some in that other states/municipalities exercise different taxes/rates on gasoline purchases. In Texas, the total tax paid per gallon is almost 38.5 cents. And as you suggest, proximity to the refinery can be a component as well - why gasoline usually costs less on the TX coast than in DFW. Then it gets trickier. Not all crude oil is homogenous in quality. The higher the sulfur content, the costlier it is to distill (that's right, a refinery is just an alcohol still writ large) and the more crude it will take to produce gasoline. So, for efficiency sake, refiners prefer to distill gasoline from low sulfur oil which is the pricier product, but yields them better returns at the same price. Another complicated factor is where that refinery is located and where its supplies of oil come from. Complicating this is the fact that the price of oil reported daily in the press is the spot price on a futures contract as traded on the NYMEX. What refiners actually pay differs from this (Saudi Arabia actual offers 1/5 discounts in order to move its high sulfur oil). The last aspect that affects the price of gasoline is local and state regulations impacting additives which can significantly increase the cost to produce that gasoline. And then there is simple supply and demand. So, why does gas cost so much more in say LA than Houston?

Both have refineries in their respective immediate vicinities, so transportation costs from the refinery/storage to retail is not really in effect in this example (although it would be if the CA city were San Diego)
So the differences come about when you factor the input of the raw materials. CA refiners depend primarily on Alaska (high) and CA (med sulfur content) crude. Houston refineries primarily rely on Texas and Mexican crude which is for the most part, sweet (low sulfur).
CA has some of the most restrictive regulations regarding gasoline additives whereas TX does not and thus said additives add to the cost of producing gasoline and are thus passed on to the consumer.
And lastly demand versus supply. S California, which you no doubt know, exercises heavy demand for gasoline relative to the possible output (supply) of the servicing refineries compared to those in say Pasadena or Texas City.
And this is where the most insidious aspect of the difference lies: Texas refiners cannot readily shift excess supply to CA when their demand far outpaces supply and thus either relieve the consumer or take advantage of CA's higher prices. Because the supply will not conform to CA's additive requirements, whereas should the opposite be true, CA refiners could ship their excess supply here because TX additive requirements are not as stringent.

#66 360texas

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:14 PM

While a bit tricky to read and understand.. I think I understand.. sort of....

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#67 Sam Stone

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 04:26 PM

Yossarian, the motor vehicle registration fee is a state level fee levied at the county level and its yield is tied directly to the number of vehicles registered. Also, the county cannot use those funds to fix city streets--county roads, yes. My point was that much like the sales tax, which is directly proportional to the amount of sales activity (rather than number of sellers), the gas excise tax could have a state AND local component as well. Currently, our property taxes go to pay off, among other things, debt which was taken out for capital projects, many of which are roads. Road degradation is a result of traffic, not property ownership, so why not make the users pay and lower the property tax burden for everyone? This lower tax rate would encourage development, which is something everybody on the forum seems to want. The feds tax gas, the state taxes gas, why not jump on the bandwagon and tack on a few cents for ol' Cowtown?

Re: power crossing TX state lines, it does happen. Shortly after deregulation in 02 I got quite the tutorial on electricity provision from some people at various REPs.

#68 Yossarian

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:09 PM

Re: power crossing TX state lines, it does happen. Shortly after deregulation in 02 I got quite the tutorial on electricity provision from some people at various REPs.


From "Texas Energy Overview" found on the TXRRC website:

"Unlike other states in the country, Texas' electricity grid is not connected to other states. Due to this lack of infrastructure, Texas is not able to sell its electricity beyond its own borders."

The same publication also states:

"This grid,...,delivers aproximately 85% of Texas' overall power usage to 12 million Texans."

I think the answer is that Texas' grid does not technically cover the entire state and that those parts that are not part of the Texas Grid are connected to other states and thus able to procure electricity from outside the state. The core though, including FW, is within the grid and not connected and thus not able to transact with other states.

Also, the deregulation that took place in 02 was just for retail only which then allowed you to shop around for electric utility supply from outside your home region, but that electricity was still generated in and thus comming from within Texas. The wholesale market was de-regulated in 95.

#69 Yossarian

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:14 PM

the gas excise tax could have a state AND local component as well. Currently, our property taxes go to pay off, among other things, debt which was taken out for capital projects, many of which are roads. Road degradation is a result of traffic, not property ownership, so why not make the users pay and lower the property tax burden for everyone?


You do have a point there. It would need to be constrained heavily by the state though. I just am not a fan of adding taxes in any form. Maybe we should encourage our congressional representation to do a better job of repatriating our federal gas taxes back to Texas to defray these costs. Texas only gets 86 cents back for every dollar in Federal gas taxes levied. WV gets twice that - not exactly sporting is it?

#70 ghughes

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 08:42 PM

No Man Is An Island

According to the
Houston Advanced Research Center and
Institute for Energy, Law & Enterprise
University of Houston Law Center 2003
http://www.beg.utexa..._texas_2003.pdf

there are indeed electrical connections to the rest of the US, although limited to 800 MW via some sort of AC/DC/AC things in East Texas. That AC/DC stuff means that we aren't synchronized with the rest of the country but we can move power. The non-ERCOT parts of Texas are hooked into the rest of the US more conventionally. See map below.

Posted Image

#71 Sam Stone

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:23 PM

Wow, so Newfoundland is really off the grid. I think they're one of those half hour time zone places too.

#72 safly

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 10:43 PM

This is VERYinteresting stuff. Thanks Yoss and Co., you had just made me realize how these gas prices (though much more pleasant in SA) are substantiated. To an extent. I love the grid map, I think every person who uses electricity should study it, and choose by law where you want your electricity to come from. Ever since my friend had told me that Green Mountain energy gets a formidable share from the TXU grid, I keep on smiling by their DTFW booths wonderin how many fools they are going to p/u today. Not owrth the change unless it is evident to do so. i agree on the taxation being more transparent for muni purpose, and state. I would def. agree on a legislating that tax element FOR USERS. And eliminating the state reg. fees, or making it practically FREE. Hopefully this will spur development as Sammy pointed out, along with Metro Rail or alternative-fuel transport.

Texas only gets 86 cents back for every dollar in Federal gas taxes levied. WV gets twice that - not exactly sporting is it?

<_<

How bout this for a battlecry directed at legislators during the next State elections. "WE Want TWICE, WE Want Twice!" :D

Again, always a pleasure to join in on your lectures Yoss.
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#73 gdvanc

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 02:02 AM

Re: plugin electric cars, that is the dumbest thing I've heard of.  Electrical power has to be produced for those cars to plug into.  My guess is that some of that electrical power is coming from some environmentally unfriendly sources.

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I think it's a mistake to discount plug-in electric cars out-of-hand. For the forseeable future, all cars will cost money to operate and will create pollution in creating the energy to propel them (whether that's created at the time of propulsion or in advance). There are other issues such as convenience and power distribution as well. The question is: Can plug-in cars be developed that on balance deliver more value in terms of reduced cost, reduced pollution, and so on to make them viable? I don't think it's completely unrealistic.

In the article, they report that modifications to the Prius have enabled it to get 250 mpg using a power source that requires connection to an electrical outlet. It isn't possible to tell how many kilowatt-hours are necessary to propel it for a given distance so who knows how much pollution is generted in creating the energy to propel the car... but it's promising enough to entertain the thought that they might be on the right track.

And, re: hybrid cars/alternative fuel sources, the problem with cars is not just waht they do to the natural environment, but what they do to the human environment.  If all of the vehicles in the US were magically replaced with flubber powered zero-emissions vehicles we might breathe easier, but our problems would be far from solved.  Living in an auto dominated environment is the problem and poor air quality is but one symptom. 

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I'm not bright enough to know if all of that is true or not. I am certain, however, that there is no near-term solution that would move us very far away from an auto-dominated environment. Except possibly peak oil. :-)

In the mean time, do you suggest we just throw up our hands and stick with what we have? I'm more inclined to believe we should try to address the things we can.

Besides, we'll never all agree on what constitutes the ideal human environment.

And one more aside.  The Prius is the fugliest car to be produced since the early 90s Chevy Caprice.  It looks like a tuna.  Their ugliness is part of their appeal to a certain demographic, but if they ever want mass appeal they're going to have to drop that hybrid powertrain into a visually inoffensive car.  Kind of like Honda which makes hybrid versions of its existing lineup.  I would love to drive a car that got mileage like that but not one that looks like a pregnant fish with wheels off a radio-flyer wagon. 

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Vanity issues? I like pretty cars, too, but few of mine have been. I do miss that '66 Mustang sometimes.

1) I agree that the (my) Prius is not eye-catchingly beautiful. I do not agree that it's the fugliest since that bathtub-shaped Caprice; I think there are uglier cars being produced today. It's a matter of taste, though.

2) Toyota's hybrid powertrain is available in the Highlander. It will be in the Camry "soon". Plus there'll be the Lexus RX and GS. Toyota also has several wicked cool concept cars which show promise. My fave is the CS&S 4-wheel drive mid-engine 2+2, but the Alessandro Volta is pretty cool, too. And the FTX pickup is not bad. Eventually most (perhaps all) of the major automakers will offer hybrid powertrains across most of their lineup (unless something cooler comes along).

3) Apart from the exterior styling, I don't feel like I've given up much for my mileage. The Prius peppier than my last two cars (Protegé, Neon) with smoother acceleration, better handling, better seats, more head and leg room, etc. Okay, it was more expensive. Looks aren't everything. My last fillup was 8.444 gallons after 429.9 miles. Set me back almost $14!

#74 Biggins

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 08:01 AM

If people do , by and large, switch to hybrids, there will have to be a shift in the gas tax structure. Currently, we pay a cents/gal tax for road maintenance and construction. If the average fuel economy goes from 20 mpg to 30 mpg, there will be a *major* shortfall in road funds. My guess is that we'll go to a %/gal tax that goes up with gas prices, ensuring that there's enough money no matter how efficient we become with our autos.

Oh, and trucks need to pay MUCH more than cars per gallon, considering the damage that they do to the highway system. Perhaps the additional funds could go into railroad construction? <_<

#75 Sam Stone

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 10:04 AM

Sorry, Donny. I didn't mean to dis on your ride so hard. I just find it frustrating, as someone who's concerned about the environment, that the most fuel efficient hybrid was designed to have so little mass appeal. I mean, as a hybrid, they had the environmentally conscious market locked up. Why not go the extra mile and make the thing normal looking? I know that the shape is what contributes to the low drag coefficient, and I know that among the liberal/NPR/environmentally-conscious demographic the ug-factor is actually a selling point (one reason that Subaru is displacing Volvo in that segment), but still. . .

BTW, you would be amazed at how many Priuses I see here in Bloomington. I see at least one every single time I go out on the road.

OK, other contenders for current ugly models: the PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300, VW Beetle, and anything out of Cadillac or Pontiac. No offense to other Forumers who happen to drive any of these unfortunate vehicles.

Biggins, the reasons gas is taxed per unit instead of ad valorum are:

1. why should people who put higher octane gas in their cars pay more? Higher mileage cars require higher octane gas, therefore people with less money driving the higher mileage cars would be squeezed.

2. As mentioned previously on this thread, the price of gas varies widely due to geography. Why should some people pay a higher rate by virtue of where they live? (does not apply to my argument for municipal gas tax which I can explain later)

3. The price of gas varies a great deal with the market, but the amount of gas sold does not. Fixing taxes to value instead of amount would turn a very stable revenue stream into a very unstable one.

And, there is no practical way to make trucks pay a higher rate for gas than cars. The most direct way to increase fuel economy is simply to increase the tax.

#76 Biggins

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 11:04 AM

1. why should people who put higher octane gas in their cars pay more?  Higher mileage cars require higher octane gas, therefore people with less money driving the higher mileage cars would be squeezed.


I follow your logic, but I don't think that most people driving around 150,000-mile hoopties are too worried about putting high-octane in their tank, any more than how they're going to get food on the table that night. The rest of the 'high-octaners' are the Porsche & Subaru WRX crowd. Hardly concerned about gas prices.

2.  As mentioned previously on this thread, the price of gas varies widely due to geography.  Why should some people pay a higher rate by virtue of where they live?  (does not apply to my argument for municipal gas tax which I can explain later)


Good point.

3.  The price of gas varies a great deal with the market, but the amount of gas sold does not.  Fixing taxes to value instead of amount would turn a very stable revenue stream into a very unstable one.


The amount of gas sold will trend lower if most people trade in gas hogs for hybrids. That's my point. If the country trends from SUVs towards cars, if only for sheer economic necessity, then the amount of gas sold will be lower, population growth notwithstanding.

And, there is no practical way to make trucks pay a higher rate for gas than cars.  The most direct way to increase fuel economy is simply to increase the tax.


I'd increase the diesel tax by X cents. If truckers were to bear their full costs on the road (of course, we'd pay for it at the grocery store, electronics store, etc.), then the market might trend more towards railroads, which are very profitable and are currently ripe for investment. Subsidizing the trucking industry to make our product costs artificially lower is just wrong.

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#77 safly

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 05:44 PM

Railroad is not all that profiteering. POE's and rail politics take all the money making fun out of it. Otherwise you would see a ton of RR businesses. It can make maoney, good money, but only in certain sectors of the RR Industry.

Though it is a good investment to use, much like RE. Box Carts are the thing to try, if you have the money.

Good point on the Truckers TAX. I was just about to point that out myself.

It's a lot like Corp. Taxes. Do you really beleive that Corp's honestly pay these taxes w/o placing the burden on the consumer?
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#78 gdvanc

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 06:49 PM

Sorry, Donny.  I didn't mean to dis on your ride so hard.  I just find it frustrating, as someone who's concerned about the environment, that the most fuel efficient hybrid was designed to have so little mass appeal.  I mean, as a hybrid, they had the environmentally conscious market locked up.  Why not go the extra mile and make the thing normal looking?  I know that the shape is what contributes to the low drag coefficient, and I know that among the liberal/NPR/environmentally-conscious demographic the ug-factor is actually a selling point (one reason that Subaru is displacing Volvo in that segment), but still. . .

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No offense taken. I didn't buy it for style (although I do think it's cool in it's own way). I don't think they designed it for mass appeal because I don't think they intended to sell a lot of them. From what I understand, they currently lose money on each unit (possibly a myth, though). They have intended all along to propagate the technology to other models in their line.

I look at it as sort of a test platform for new ideas - somewhat of a concept car.

BTW, you would be amazed at how many Priuses I see here in Bloomington.  I see at least one every single time I go out on the road. 

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They are beginning to be quite common. Maybe too common. There goes my cachet.

OK, other contenders for current ugly models: the PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300, VW Beetle, and anything out of Cadillac or Pontiac.  No offense to other Forumers who happen to drive any of these unfortunate vehicles. 

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Scion xB. Honda Insight. VW Golf. VW GTI. No offense, either.

#79 gdvanc

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 06:53 PM

NY Times article on inability of supply to keep up with growing demand, and the resulting rise in oil prices: The Breaking Point [note: free registration required to read most articles on NYTimes.com]

#80 mosteijn

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Posted 24 August 2005 - 08:11 PM

OK, other contenders for current ugly models: the PT Cruiser, Chrysler 300, VW Beetle, and anything out of Cadillac or Pontiac.  No offense to other Forumers who happen to drive any of these unfortunate vehicles. 

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Scion xB. Honda Insight. VW Golf. VW GTI. No offense, either.

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Don't forget the Honda Element...I can't STAND those things. I specifically also dislike the Aztec(a?), I think from Pontiac. :D

#81 safly

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 04:36 PM

How about the BIKE? -_-
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#82 Wildcard

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:13 AM

I ran across a website today that shows the lowest price for gasoline around town. Here's the link if anyone wants to have a look: http://www.fortworthgasprices.com

#83 safly

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Posted 27 October 2005 - 04:00 PM

$2.09. Racetrac on 377 and Browning. NRH.

Closest gas station near me. happy.gif
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