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DT: The Carnegie (236 FT/16 ST/2008)


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#1 Yossarian

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 03:14 PM

Have it on some background that the Basses are proposing/planning a 20 - 20+ story structure at 3rd and Lamar or W 3rd and Burnett (accross from the main branch library). The initial proposal is for at least 200,000 sf. I think the structure is to only occupy one half of a block, possibly on the north side of the YWCA building on W 4th. The proposed name is as the title of the thread suggests, The Carnegie.

Has anyone else heard these rumblings? I think it is a different proposal from any additions to City Center.

#2 Now in Denton

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:39 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 16 2006, 04:14 PM) View Post

Have it on some background that the Basses are proposing/planning a 20 - 20+ story structure at 3rd and Lamar or W 3rd and Burnett (accross from the main branch library. The initial proposal is for at least 200,000 sf. I think the structure is to only occupy one half of a block, possibly on the north side of the YWCA building on W 4th. The proposed name is as the title of the thread suggests, The Carnegie.

Has anyone else heard these rumblings? I think it is a different proposal from any additions to City Center.


Yes , most here have heard of this project .There are about two serious groups talking about a new office tower. But as reported in the Fort Worth Business Press. There room for one office project and the City Place Tower project. AKA (Tandy Center).

I have heard that thier waiting to see how the City Place Tower will fill up before moving on with thier own project. If at all. I do think the new office building will be 20-25 stories tall at best.

#3 Yossarian

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 06:24 PM

QUOTE
Yes , most here have heard of this project .There are about two serious groups talking about a new office tower.


Forgive the ignorance, but I cannot find any threads specifically addressing this proposal. Please direct. And what groups are you referencing? Those interested or those developing? This has been described to me as a Bass deal; no-one else.

#4 John T Roberts

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 06:40 PM

There has not been a specific thread on this project. As I recall, the building has been mentioned twice in passing within this forum.

#5 Now in Denton

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Posted 18 June 2006 - 11:41 AM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 17 2006, 07:24 PM) View Post

QUOTE
Yes , most here have heard of this project .There are about two serious groups talking about a new office tower.


Forgive the ignorance, but I cannot find any threads specifically addressing this proposal. Please direct. And what groups are you referencing? Those interested or those developing? This has been described to me as a Bass deal; no-one else.


Yossarian read jeffwd post in the 60 story thread post #305. It's from the May 19th Dallas Business Journal.
A lot of news I find. Is in news papers from the FW Weeky to the Dallas Businal Journal, Star Telegram ect. Your not ignorant. It's just most news is just a tiny blip here and thier.

#6 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:12 AM

Very well. My information comes from a more reliable source than the press.

#7 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 08:52 AM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 09:12 AM) View Post

Very well. My information comes from a more reliable source than the press.

Is this the same source that told you that the Victory Park project in Dallas was dead? You know, the project that recently announced it will be the home of the Mandarin Oriental Hotel, and where currently there's a huge hole in the ground surrounded by a construction fence.

#8 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Jun 19 2006, 09:52 AM) View Post

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 09:12 AM) View Post

Very well. My information comes from a more reliable source than the press.

Is this the same source that told you that the Victory Park project in Dallas was dead? You know, the project that recently announced it will be the home of the Mandarin Oriental Hotel, and where currently there's a huge hole in the ground and a construction fence.


No. And if you re-read the post jackson, I expressed doubt about Victory in that it IS a FACT that Hillwood today is having some difficulty leasing the nearly 200K sf of office space planned. And, condo developers are now stipulating that "buyers" hold their purchase for 24-36 months after construction in the pre-sale agreements - which is also a negative sign. It may get built, but a fence and hole do not mean anything. There are a lot of fenced holes here in Houston (most now filled to the brim with rainwater) that are planned, but not necessarily guaranteed to be built. I drove past the site last week and could not discern any significant progress. But they have until early 2007 to make the 09 construction deadline. As opposed to the Block TU proposal (looks like my source on that one was spot on), Perot does have the pockets to build the thing and sit on all that empty space for a decade if he has to.

#9 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 10:54 AM

^^^
I could have sworn you said on another thread this project was DEAD. Granted as with any project, it could be cancelled even after a groundbreaking, but when did slow leasing stop an office project from being built in Dallas. I would be much more concerned it there was no hotel announced yet.

Three years ago a source told me that after the Palladium fiasco, it would be ten years or more befor anything significant would be built around AA arena. Just three years later, from our office I can barely see the arena.

Remember you're talking about FW, where my six year old nephew could call the Star Telegram and announce he's building a 20 story office building and they would print it. So, I'm not saying your source is wrong, and I hope he's right, FW needs a new spec office tower, but one thing I've learned about FW, you can't believe it, until you see it.

#10 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 11:32 AM

The building is named. It is a Bass proposal. That should say something, as opposed to Block TU. The source is someone who is in the market to relocate his company's HQ offices into downtown and The Carnegie is being offered as an option for pre-lease.

#11 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:09 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 12:32 PM) View Post

The building is named. It is a Bass proposal. That should say something, as opposed to Block TU. The source is someone who is in the market to relocate his company's HQ offices into downtown and The Carnegie is being offered as an option for pre-lease.

Now see, that sounds a lot more probable than saying "I have a source...."
Hopefully, this pans out and this development happens. Are you at liberty to say what type of business??? Just curious. If not, I totally understand.

#12 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:15 PM

I am, but for professional reasons should not. There are some egos in west side society that will be ruffled when the actual deal gets inked.

QUOTE
that sounds a lot more probable than saying "I have a source...."


The problem is jackson that with the exception of my "source" on Victory to which you and Dallasstar do not like to hear about, my "sources" have almost completely turned out to be dead on (the Victory information is yet to pan either way - too early to tell). Let's just say it helps to know a good number of the actors in the N. Texas commercial real estate game.

#13 vjackson

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 01:15 PM) View Post

I am, but for professional reasons should not. There are some egos in west side society that will be ruffled when the actual deal gets inked.

Why do you bait my curiousity by saying things like that??? You're so mysterious!!!

#14 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 01:42 PM

OK, sorry for the baiting. Let's just leave it at one ego is going to be really ruffled and that ego can be somewhat tyranical at times - especially within that person's profession. And unfortunately often allows for things like this to spill into personal life and societal politics.

#15 Now in Denton

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Jun 19 2006, 09:52 AM) View Post

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 09:12 AM) View Post

Very well. My information comes from a more reliable source than the press.

Is this the same source that told you that the Victory Park project in Dallas was dead? You know, the project that recently announced it will be the home of the Mandarin Oriental Hotel, and where currently there's a huge hole in the ground surrounded by a construction fence.


Don't know and don't care.

#16 Now in Denton

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE(Yossarian @ Jun 19 2006, 09:12 AM) View Post

Very well. My information comes from a more reliable source than the press.


Are we in a grumpy mood today? Seems like your "more reliable source" failed you if you had to asked about the Bass Building? And vjackson had not even started his daily mud slinging yet when you posted?
Just trying to help. So far it was just me and Mr. Roberts trying to answer your question. As for myself I too am always looking for news about new DT Buildings. Glad to get news from anyone on this forum.

#17 Thurman52

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 06:55 PM

Late last week they were boring holes in the parking lot next to the Old Bank One Garage, was that the 1/2 block you are talking about?

#18 Yossarian

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 07:25 PM

QUOTE
Are we in a grumpy mood today? Seems like your "more reliable source" failed you if you had to asked about the Bass Building?


? I'm just not understanding your point.

QUOTE
Late last week they were boring holes in the parking lot next to the Old Bank One Garage, was that the 1/2 block you are talking about?


Very well could be.

#19 safly

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 09:21 PM

It's gotta be an ENERGY company of some sorts.

Gotta be. wink.gif
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#20 JulieM

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:50 AM

Star Telegram Article
More Detailed Star-Telegram Article

Edited by John T Roberts, 15 August 2006 - 05:08 AM.


#21 EricTCU

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 11:58 AM

Good. Wish it was 36, not 16, but still good!

#22 Now in Denton

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 01:59 PM

QUOTE(JulieM @ Aug 14 2006, 11:50 AM) View Post


I wonder where ? Thier two parking lots from Libaray. I think the larger one belongs to YMCA. The other one is a smaller lot next to the Tower parking garage.

#23 cjyoung

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:25 PM

QUOTE(EricTCU @ Aug 14 2006, 12:58 PM) View Post

Good. Wish it was 36, not 16, but still good!


I wish it was 66! dry.gif

Oh well, it's progress. Austin's downtown looks better with many more smaller buildings.

#24 Fort Worthology

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE(Now in Denton @ Aug 14 2006, 02:59 PM) View Post

I wonder where ? Thier two parking lots from Libaray. I think the larger one belongs to YMCA. The other one is a smaller lot next to the Tower parking garage.


3rd & Taylor would put it at the lot next to the Tower garage, across from the Chase Bank Building garage, I believe.

#25 vjackson

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 02:43 PM

It's good to see someone take the initiative to start adding some office space in DTFW. Hopefully, it will be well designed, and unlike Sundance's last building venture, the Chase Building, they won't ruin the building by being too cheap to hide the mechanical equipment on top.

#26 David Love (temp)

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:16 PM

It's the parking lot I mentioned 6 or 7 months ago, I parked my F250 there for a bit, always thought it was a waste as a parking lot.

#27 mbdalton1

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 03:18 PM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Aug 14 2006, 03:43 PM) View Post

Hopefully, it will be well designed, and unlike Sundance's last building venture, the Chase Building, they won't ruin the building by being too cheap to hide the mechanical equipment on top.


Gee whiz, ain't that the truth??!!! I can't believe they couldn't find a way to incorporate/hide the mechanical better. What an obvious sight.

Fingers crossed for strategic planning!!!

smile.gif mary bess

#28 John T Roberts

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 04:12 PM

Finally, another one that I have been keeping secret hits the news! I have known about this building before David posted his information. The location is on the half block parking lot that sits to the north of the existing Bank One/Tower/Chase Garage. The new building will block views to the west from the 3rd Street Garage. The site is bounded by Lamar, 3rd, and Taylor Streets.

As for the mechanical screen on the Chase Building, from what I had been told, the building was originally designed with a screen and the building came in over budget. The screen was "Value Engineered" out of the project, as were the awnings along the street. The awnings were placed within the tenant packages.

#29 AdamB

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 05:02 PM

Anytime a building is going up in place of a parking lot it is a win win for downtown.

#30 Fort Worthology

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 05:28 PM

QUOTE(John T Roberts @ Aug 14 2006, 05:12 PM) View Post

Finally, another one that I have been keeping secret hits the news! I have known about this building before David posted his information. The location is on the half block parking lot that sits to the north of the existing Bank One/Tower/Chase Garage. The new building will block views to the west from the 3rd Street Garage. The site is bounded by Lamar, 3rd, and Taylor Streets.


That's great news - right down the street from where I'm at. Anything that replaces a parking lot with a building that has ground-level retail is a great thing, and even better if it starts pushing the emphasis out to previously "barren" parts of downtown.

#31 JBB

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 05:30 PM

C'mon. I admire the beauty of that mechanical equipment every morning as I head down 121 for work.

#32 SurplusPopulation

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 06:01 PM

Will this be everyone's favorite Washingtonian doing the design? Personally, I like his buildings and always have from a pedestrian point of view. I do completely understand the issues over cheap materials, though. His buildings in Dallas do not seem as cheaply built.

#33 mosteijn

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 06:33 PM

First of all, wasn't there already a thread about this project? Personally, I'm getting a little tired of duplicate (or triplicate, or quadruplicate...) threads about the same development. Is there any way we can streamline the development forums so that we can eliminate the extra threads and title the originals in a way that makes it clear what is going on (since I imagine the reason why people post double threads is because they weren't aware that there were old ones.) Not trying to be snotty here, just wanting to get rid of clutter. smile.gif


Anyway, did anyone else catch the renderings they showed briefly on CBS at 6? They were just outlines in B&W, but from what I can tell, the building seems to be a typical historic rip-off. In that case, I bet Schwarz will be designing it.

And although I'm excited about a new office tower downtown (with pre-committed tenants, no less), I am really REALLY going to miss the views from that parking garage. The sunset from up there is just awesome!

IPB Image


#34 JulieM

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:04 PM

hmm it was just announced today so I don't think another thread was started. If I'm wrong, mea culpa.

#35 John T Roberts

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE(Jonnyrules23 @ Aug 14 2006, 07:33 PM) View Post

First of all, wasn't there already a thread about this project? Personally, I'm getting a little tired of duplicate (or triplicate, or quadruplicate...) threads about the same development. Is there any way we can streamline the development forums so that we can eliminate the extra threads and title the originals in a way that makes it clear what is going on (since I imagine the reason why people post double threads is because they weren't aware that there were old ones.) Not trying to be snotty here, just wanting to get rid of clutter. smile.gif


Jonny, in reading another thread, I was just about to post something about this when I saw your reply here. The other thread goes off topic and discusses a subject already addressed in an earlier topic. I agree with you, we need to eliminate the clutter. I will post a thread about keeping this forum free of clutter in its proper place.

Julie, there is already a thread called "The Carnegie?" This was put on the board when the major rumors were circulating about the project.

Now directly back on topic: The building is being designed by David Schwarz. I did not see the rendering on Channel 11.

#36 Fort Worthology

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 08:52 PM

QUOTE(John T Roberts @ Aug 14 2006, 09:21 PM) View Post

Now directly back on topic: The building is being designed by David Schwarz. I did not see the rendering on Channel 11.


Yay! I know I'm unpopular in this regard, but I like his buildings. He does well with pedestrian interaction in these situations.

#37 John T Roberts

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:00 PM

I watched Channel 11 at 10 PM and they had a full story on the building, including interviewing Johnny Campbell, President and CEO of Sundance Square. I did see the rendering and it looks like a cross between the Chase Building and the Family Law Center!

Here is a link to the official Sundance Square Press Release:
http://www.sundances...etail.asp?id=48

#38 JBB

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 10:15 PM

Here's a real low quality screen cap from the CBS 11 website:

IPB Image

#39 renamerusk

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Posted 14 August 2006 - 11:35 PM

QUOTE(John T Roberts @ Aug 14 2006, 05:12 PM) View Post

...The location is on the half block parking lot that sits to the north of the existing Bank One/Tower/Chase Garage. The new building will block views to the west from the 3rd Street Garage. The site is bounded by Lamar, 3rd, and Taylor Streets....


Excellent! I hope this bolsters my assumption that XTO can use a similar half-/three quarters block (W.T. Waggoner) to build it own tower in the planned XTO Square and by doing so provide DTFW with the best of two worlds: a green central park and a new tower.

My initial impression of the Carneige Tower is very favorable. I like the emphasis on stone, brick and mortar. It has the potential to be a very beautiful building.

Keep Fort Worth Folksy

#40 Redshirt

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 03:26 AM

Here's a picture I found from the WBAP web site:

IPB Image

Also, this morning's Star-Telegram made mention of the project as well as the following:

Two existing office buildings that had been slated for redevelopment into condos or apartments will now return to the office market. They are Two City Place, the 16-story office tower at the former Tandy Center just north of the proposed Carnegie, and the 24-story Transport Life Building at Seventh and Main streets.



#41 WTx

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:03 AM

I like the rendering! Lets just hope the real thing looks as good? In fact does anybody think the tops looks a bit like the older Fort Worth Club Bldg or is it just me??

#42 hooked

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 08:49 AM

I agree, the first thing I thought of when I saw the rendering was the Fort Worth Club building.

If they stick to the plan for 13' ceilings, the Carnegie - at sixteen stories - will be just slighty shorter than the nineteen-story One Tandy Center.

#43 texastrill

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE
I agree, the first thing I thought of when I saw the rendering was the Fort Worth Club building.

I saw the T&P...
QUOTE
Finally, another one that I have been keeping secret hits the news!


Mr.Roberts,is there anything else about any development you can share with us?
T E X A S T R I L L - G O C O W B O Y S

#44 Fort Worthology

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:43 AM

I like it! Can't wait to see a better rendering. Looks nice and handsome. If it's brick, it will look nicely substantial.

#45 vjackson

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:49 AM

QUOTE(Jonnyrules23 @ Aug 14 2006, 07:33 PM) View Post

First of all, wasn't there already a thread about this project? Personally, I'm getting a little tired of duplicate (or triplicate, or quadruplicate...) threads about the same development. Is there any way we can streamline the development forums so that we can eliminate the extra threads and title the originals in a way that makes it clear what is going on (since I imagine the reason why people post double threads is because they weren't aware that there were old ones.) Not trying to be snotty here, just wanting to get rid of clutter. smile.gif


Anyway, did anyone else catch the renderings they showed briefly on CBS at 6? They were just outlines in B&W, but from what I can tell, the building seems to be a typical historic rip-off. In that case, I bet Schwarz will be designing it.

And although I'm excited about a new office tower downtown (with pre-committed tenants, no less), I am really REALLY going to miss the views from that parking garage. The sunset from up there is just awesome!


Sometimes the forum can get really slow and certain threads can be forgotten about, especially if they haven't been mentioned for awhile. I've even tried to fine old threads in the past and have been unable to locate them. So I think, occasionally, duplicate threads are inevitable.

And please say it ain't so.......!!! I was finally believing FW was going to move in a new direction and its weird love affair with Schwarz had come to an end. (I was worried he was gong to design the CC Hotel). I saw the renderings, and it looks just like so many of his other buildings. Another cheap looking ode to the past. I guess I can't really judge it until I see a completed color rendering, but so far, I'm not crazy about it. I'm glad its only 16 stories. If FW ever gets another tall building, I would hate to think he would be the architect.

#46 WTx

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 09:58 AM

I wonder if the top will have some lighting. The Fort Worth Club Building looks nice with its lighting scheme. I'm mixed on the new old look. I am a fan of the old buildings however I do agree the remakes don't yet have the character of the originals. Maybe time will age the remakes? However, I still like them better than the generic looking buildings you see just about everywhere else. The new old look will hopefully be appreciated long into the future. Its really hard to look at Carter Burgess, City Center, The Tower, or Burnett Plaza with enduring affection.

#47 renamerusk

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 10:11 AM

QUOTE(vjackson @ Aug 15 2006, 10:49 AM) View Post

... I saw the renderings, and it looks just like so many of his other buildings. Another cheap looking ode to the past. I guess I can't really judge it until I see a completed color rendering, but so far, I'm not crazy about it....


Okay, I'm guessing that you prefer esthetically the Hyatt Regency Dallas over The Anatole (Hyatt Anatole); your right to do so. I do like the AA Center as it does fit well in the surrounding warehouse district of DTD; I view the new development, particularly the W Hotel as cheap looking and completely insensitive to its surroundings. The W is a hotel searching for a beach.

Keep Fort Worth folksy!



#48 vjackson

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE(renamerusk @ Aug 15 2006, 11:11 AM) View Post

Okay, I'm guessing that you prefer esthetically the Hyatt Regency Dallas over The Anatole (Hyatt Anatole); your right to do so. I do like the AA Center as it does fit well in the surrounding warehouse district of DTD; I view the new development, particularly the W Hotel as cheap looking and completely insensitive to its surroundings. The W is a hotel searching for a beach.

Keep Fort Worth folksy!

You would be wrong. I think you may have taken my comment about Schwarz to mean that I don't like historic architecture. I admire many types of architecuture from many different periods. Schwarz's replication of historic architecture is amaturish and cheesy to me. A little of his stuff goes a reeeeeeally long way. I've never liked the Dallas Hyatt..I've always loved the Anatole (wish it was located in a more unbanized area) . I can't stand the AA Center, it looks like an airplane hanger. Wasn't a big fan of the W, though it has grown on me somewhat (I'm more of a fan of the "cache" it brings to the city).

I'm not fond of the exterior of the Bass Hall. My mom was right..it looks like one of those gaudy mega-churches. (The interior gets an A +) And I love West Village in Dallas as mixed-use urban center, but the architecture looks like Walt Disney threw up. The only thing Schwarz has done around here I somewhat like is the Ballpark. (Some of his DC stuff is okay) So I'm not totally closed minded to his work. He's just done little around here I've found good...IMHO.

#49 vjackson

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 11:35 AM

QUOTE(WTx @ Aug 15 2006, 10:58 AM) View Post

Its really hard to look at Carter Burgess, City Center, The Tower, or Burnett Plaza with enduring affection.

You're right about that, FW's attempt at the modern skyscraper has been disastrous. But I've seen many new "old" buildings built in other cities that are tons better than Schrwarz's designs. I don't have a problem with Sundance SQ. wanting to continue the historic bldg look, but for pete's sake find another architect.

#50 texastrill

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Posted 15 August 2006 - 12:00 PM

QUOTE
I don't have a problem with Sundance SQ. wanting to continue the historic bldg look, but for pete's sake find another architect

I second that!
T E X A S T R I L L - G O C O W B O Y S




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