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#1 David Love

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 07:26 PM

Forum is back online.

Better Business Bureau:  A place to find or post valid complaints for auto delerships and maintenance facilities. (New Features) If you have a valid gripe about auto dealerships, this is the place to voice it.


#2 cbellomy

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 08:07 PM

Thanks, David.


#3 John T Roberts

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 08:41 PM

David, you must have really hopped on it because I only received the DB error message one time, and there were other things going crazy on my computer. I re-booted, ate dinner, and then everything was working properly.

#4 Dismuke

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 10:31 PM

I am curious whether the error was with something to do with the software package or is it with the hosting service? I ask because the board has been VERY slow in the past few weeks since I have once again started to regularly follow it.

I also ask because the hosting service (which I won't name but which is easy enough for the curious to look up) has a VERY bad reputation over on webhostingtalk.com

I also remember very well the day that both the forum and the Fort Worth Architecture website was down for 24 hours right after the tragedy at the Water Gardens a few years back resulted in a lot of traffic from people trying to find out about the Water Gardens.

That outage was the result of the following policy of the hosting service:

"Customer agrees that &%$*#$ will monitor and meter Customer's daily bandwidth and disk usage and in the event that Customer exceeds the bandwidth or disk usage allocated to each hosting package on any given day &%$*#$ may take corrective action which may, at &%$*#$'s sole discretion, include the assessment of additional charges, disconnection or discontinuance of any and all Services, or termination of this Agreement. All bandwidth is measured daily and monthly bandwidth allowances are divided by the calendar days of a given month to determine the daily bandwidth allowance."


In my book, the above is a scam.

The company advertises a quota of a 1,000 GB of bandwith per month. But in practice, what they actually offer is 33 GB per day - and if you exceed it, they will shut your site down for 24 hours. Yes, 33 GB per day adds up to 1,000 GB of bandwidth per month. But, in practice, it is next to impossible to actually use that full 1,000 GB of bandwidth under such a policy. There isn't a website on earth that uses an identical amount of bandwidth each and every single day. Some days have more traffic than others - and if one gets a plug in a major media outlet, one is going to have a big spike for a few days. To actually use the full 1,000 GB they advertise, one would have to use EXACTLY 33.3 GB bandwidth each and every single day and NEVER go under or over that daily amount.

The way that company advertises its bandwidth quotas, in my book, comes very close to bordering on fraud and deceptive trade practices. My strong guess is there is technically nothing illegal about it as they DO specify the above in the contract customers sign with them - but, at the very least, it is intentionally misleading.

Furthermore, the company's alleged bandwidth quota is additionally worthless on the basis of the following policy:

"Binary files such as images, video and sound (i.e MP3, WAV, RA, GIF, JPG but not limited to those file extensions) may only account for a maximum of 50% of Customer's total bandwidth usage before customer must upgrade to a higher performance solution."


But image and audio files are what generates a website's bandwidth usage. What that means is that, of the 1,000 GB the customer allegedly has per month by their dubious methods of calculation, only 500 GB can be as a result of image and audio files and the rest of the 500 GB has to be from the transmission of plain text. According to this little fact sheet I stumbled across, 500 GB of text is equal to that contained in a shelf filled with books 1,500 feet long. In practice, most websites would probably be in violation of the terms of agreement. If you have a simple home page with a single photograph of yourself or your business and a few paragraphs of text, way more than 50 percent of the bandwidth usage will be consumed by the image file.

I have no doubt that a photo intensive site such as this one is already technically in violation of the terms and conditions.

As far as the bandwidth quota - 33 gigs per day is a LOT of traffic and is NOT something that is likely to happen very often. But it might if the site ever gets a mention by the New York Times or some other very big media outlet with a large audience there would be a huge spike lasting a few days - which is a great opportunity for any website. Why on earth would one want their site to be shut down right in the middle of it?

Web hosting services are a dime a dozen these days. And virtually every single one of them offers storage and bandwidth quota far in excess of what they could ever make a profit on if all of their customers ever actually used it. "Overselling" is standard practice in that industry - hosting services know that the average website only has about 25 MB worth of files and perhaps a gig or two worth of traffic per month. Hosting services play the averages. But a decent web hosting service is prepared to honor their agreements with the occasional customer who is actually able to use the advertised quotas.

The biggest problem one runs into with shared hosting services is not with bandwidth and storage quotas. Both have become so inexpensive in recent years that hosting services that play the averages correctly are more than able to deal with that. The problem one runs into is with dynamic applications such as message boards like this one. It is not that a message board consumes a lot of bandwidth or storage space. But, because the content is generated dynamically they DO consume memory and, most especially, CPU usage. This is a problem in a shared hosting environment because, if such a software program gets a lot of users and ends up consuming lots of resources, it is going to have an impact on the performance of other customers' sites that are also hosted on the machine. These days, THAT, not bandwidth or storage, is how people end up getting their shared web hosting accounts canceled or being told that they must upgrade to a dedicated server.

What I am wondering is if the hosting provider for this site has deliberately slowed down the performance of the database as a way of squeezing more accounts on a shared server than is optimal. Considering their other dubious trade practices, I certainly would not put it past them.

Again, web hosting services are a dime a dozen. Webhostingtalk.com is a good place to ask and check them out.

I personally have had good luck with 1&1 - a German company that has a large presence here in the USA: http://1and1.com However, if you go to Webhostingtalk.com you will find quite a number of complaints about them - mostly regarding their tech support which they outsource to India. I have their highest tier shared webhosting service and use it to host several sites. I also use it to host the Radio Dismuke Message Board which also uses Invision Power Board. When I hosted my message board elsewhere I used to have brief outages on a semi-regular basis. Since I moved it to 1&1, I am not aware of a single outage. It is very rare for me to have a need for tech support - so for me I am a very happy customer because of the excellent up time and the fact that they provide a LOT of great features for the price. If you need tech support, you are probably better off paying a few more bucks and hosting with someone else. I also have one of their server packages which I use to source Radio Dismuke's broadcast automation software as well as some of the station's overflow listener slots. I have had great luck with that as well - and their tech support for the server packages is American based. I usually reboot the server every couple of weeks or so in order to prevent problems - but during a recent busy period, I went 62 days between reboots and had zero downtime on the outbound stream that is sent to the various relay servers listeners tune in on.

Another company I have had dealings with is http://www.hostmysite.com/ I have learned that it is best to host your domains with a service that is DIFFERENT than your web host. That way, it your hosting service goes bad, you can just sign up with another, upload your files and then simply point your domain over to the new host - you don't have to fight the hosting service in order to move away. So I recently used hostmysite.com to register a few domain names that I plan to use in the future. I had a few problems during the registration process and needed tech support - and I was VERY impressed by the level of customer service that was provided. The techs were knowledgeable and professional - and when the problem was solved, they followed up by both email and by phone just to make sure things were working. I also got a phone call from one of their sales reps trying to get me to upgrade to a hosting package - but since he wasn't at all pushy and I have never had a call since, that didn't really bother me.

Bottom line is there are tons of decent hosting services out there - and decent webhosting these days does not have to cost any more than what the current outfit being used charges. This forum and this website is a VERY valuable resource for a lot of people and the public at large - it certainly deserves a hosting service that is worthy of hosting it. I have been meaning to mention this ever since I started noticing that the forum has been running slow - the outage today inspired me to actually do so.
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#5 David Love

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 06:32 AM

I think we just caught this issue early, but it was the second occurrence in a relatively short period. Seems to be a pretty common issue for this flavor of forum software but as to an actual root cause, I couldn't find one, perhaps the number of forum posts has grown to such a level the db could use some pruning or the host is running low on resources, just a WAG on my part.

Many hosts set policies to exclude "problem children" customers and nefarious activity, for the most part, most clients never notice, in our case I think it's just growing pains. Migrating content to a new host is relatively painless for flat and sometimes dynamic content, but I've found when you need a specific type and version of software issues grow exponentially along with cost.

I have noticed many hosts tend to throttle bandwidth when you consistently hover just below their next higher package.

Better Business Bureau:  A place to find or post valid complaints for auto delerships and maintenance facilities. (New Features) If you have a valid gripe about auto dealerships, this is the place to voice it.


#6 Dismuke

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Posted 18 May 2008 - 09:36 AM

Actually, I need to take back my recommendation of 1&1 - at least in terms of their shared web hosting packages - as a viable option for hosting this forum. The mysql databases that come with the account are only 100 MB in size.

The later versions of Invision Power Board software seem to take up quite a lot of space. My message board does not have the volume of postings that this one does and it is already taking up 72 percent of the available 100 MB. I can almost guarantee you that this is the result of the software and not the messages. For a very long time I ran an older version of IVP dating back to when they gave out permanent copies of the software at no cost for non-commercial use. Since its features were more than adequate for my needs, I never upgraded to the more recent paid versions. Big mistake. While the old version had all the features I needed, it was also old enough that its security vulnerabilities had become well-known. I ended up getting hacked - and because I did not make backups of the database as often as I should, I lost the most recent 6 months worth of postings. When I got things put back together and upgraded to the latest version of the software, the amount of space used in the database jumped dramatically. If one moves to a different host it is definitely best to do so where there is plenty of room to grow into before having to make yet another move.

This much is true: if the message board continues to grow in terms of the number of people who are viewing it at any given point in time, there will come a day when it will be very difficult to find a shared hosting plan worth its salt where it will be welcome. It is not bandwidth one has to worry about but rather CPU usage. There are a few features on the board that can be turned off to make the CPU usage more efficient - but one no longer has those features and all that really does is simply buy some extra time. If the board grows, at some point there will be a need for it to be on a machine where it has its own dedicated RAM and CPU usage. Unfortunately, I have zero idea idea or experience as to where that point is. The good news is that making the jump to a more dedicated environment is no longer as expensive as it used to be with the advent of Virtual Private Servers which are sort of a cross between sharing hosting and a dedicated server. One's data is still on a machine that hosts other people's accounts - but each user has their own individual operating system with root/administrator access and a fully dedicated amount of the machine's CPU and RAM. They don't cost too much more than a high end shared hosting package - and, unlike a shared hosting plan, you are free to install any sort of program on it that you wish.

If it ever gets to the point that it becomes desirable or necessary to upgrade the board's hosting, my guess is there are enough regulars here who value the forum to be willing to chip in and help out with the costs. My suggestion is to ask people who are willing and interested to donate $5 per month via an automated Pay Pal subscription. One wouldn't need more than a small handful of people at that level to fully cover the costs of a VPS and the software upgrades. People would still be free to make one time donations in any amount - but the nice thing about the monthly Pay Pal subscriptions is they make it easier for people to donate and, if you have a small core of donors you can count on, it brings in a more or less predictable cash flow and spares the need to have to periodically go out and beg for donations. I for one would be more than willing to throw in $5 per month towards that - and my guess is I am not the only one.

As for people reading this who might need web hosting services - my strong advice is shop around and do your homework on any company you consider before signing up. Do NOT sign up for a full year pre-pay just to save a few bucks. Even good hosting services can suddenly turn into bad ones almost overnight if they find themselves in financial difficulty. These days anybody and their aunt can get into the web hosting business. Anyone with a VPS can go out and start selling web hosting accounts - most VPS packages come with the software needed to do so. There are also hosting companies that sell web space to others for resale. It is not impossible for the sole proprietor/employee of a web hosting service to have less technical knowledge than most of their customers. It isn't hard to put up a website that makes one look bigger than one actually is. Most hosting packages come with a free domain. Your best bet, however, if your website is at all important to you, is to host your domain with a DIFFERENT company and point it to your web hosting package. Make sure your web hosting package supports this - and those of most reputable services do. Then use the freebe domain to register and park a name that you have no important use for in the present but might want to use in the future. If you host the domain with the same company as the hosting service - well, you are up the creek in the event you find yourself in a billing dispute with the hosting service or they go down and no longer respond to phone calls and emails. Having my domain names separate from my hosting service has proven to be VERY handy to me on a couple of occasions. If you do that, you can also be a little it more adventurous when it comes to using low-priced hosts such as 1&1. Unfortunately, I still have one of my more important domain names both registered and hosted through 1&1 - and that might end up being a major pain in the event that 1&1 ever goes bad. At the very least, do a thorough google search on the name of any service you consider signing up for and look at their BBB track record (keeping in mind that ANY company of decent size is going to have a few BBB complaints on record - sometimes disputes arise in which the customers are very much in the wrong)


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